For those on lockdown with an abuser

[12345kbm]

Many will be facing the lockdown with an abuser and I thought a thread where people can post for support, reassurance and help might be useful.

I understand that the National Domestic Violence Helpline will be available. This is a 24/7 helpline run in conjunction with Women's Aid and Refuge: 0808 2000 247

If you are frightened or think things are going to get violent please dial 999.

Try to make a safety plan. You can find out how to do that here.

Here's how to cover your tracks online.

Domestic Violence/abuse tends to follow a pattern which is called the cycle of abuse. You can read up about that here.

Many recommend Lundy Bancroft's book Why Does He Do That? to help understand the motivation of abusers.

I don't know what is going on with local domestic abuse organisations. However, you can find your local organisation here. You can also do a Google search for resources. For example, 'Domestic Abuse Help organisations Lincoln' and see what comes up. Also check your council's website for resources.

If you are frightened during the 'tension building phase' ie know it's going to kick off or think something may happen then contact 101 and speak to the police about your concerns. Also contact the National Domestic Abuse Helpline.

Refuge places are scarce but you may be able to get a refuge bed.

If you are worried about pets, there are resources here. There may also be local resources available that your local domestic abuse organisations will be aware of.

If you're unsure if you're with an abuser, you can read up on the abuser profiles here. You can also read up on signs of an abusive relationship. There is also a quiz here to see if you are in an abusive relationship.

If you are being raped or sexually abused. Please take a look at Rape Crisis.

The Freedom Programme is better done in the group but you can do the online version here.

Useful websites:
For legal concerns, Rights of Women have lots of Family Law and Domestic Abuse information on their website.

For information regarding children such as child maintenance, benefits, contact etc, check out the Gingerbread website.

The Citizen's Advice also has a very comprehensive website for anything else. They also have up to date info on coronavirus and work/benefits etc so please check it out if you have concerns.

Please don't tell an abuser you want to leave or are thinking of leaving because you are most at risk when leaving and in the first year after leaving.

I would suggest that getting some mental health support is absolutely one of the first things you get for yourself. I was ashamed but it is in no way a weakness, some things are just too hard to do yourself. I’ve been seeing a lady, but my recovery was harder because I reached the point of mental breakdown. Absolutely invaluable.

Just wanted to quickly say I called them! I'm so sorry for all my moaning about the past bad experiences. I spoke to someone and she was really nice. I couldn't talk properly because my neighbour is here, I can hear her on the phone actually, and so it's not private but I'm going to call her back. I think you're right and I'm so sorry for building it up in my head as no help. The other place really was bad though and I hope they didn't put off many other women but this different charity was really nice afterall. I suppose now it's just my own mental barriers and fears I need to work on. I'm going to try to call her again tomorrow. I think maybe I won't be forced to do anything because with him away there's definitely no immediate risk. Thank you again so much for pushing me to try again. I don't think I've have tried again if it wasn't for the support and encouragement here. I feel bad for rambling long posts. I'm sorry everyone. I now feel sick with fear and guilt and want to hug him.

@Fightingback16 You're a big inspiration and thank you so much for helping all of us who haven't left. You sound so nice but also so strong. Your child is very lucky to have you. I hope things keep getting better for you.

@plantlife I'm SO unbelievably pleased for you! You are so brave and so amazing. Well done. I really hope they support you.

It's over and done now. I'll stop hassling you (for a short time, let's see how it goes)

Well done, I know how hard that was for you. You're amazing.

I’m so bored out of my brain I’ve been missing the good times with him. See they really feel like good times even after, that’s because yours and my emotions are real!

I think you're both right about mental health. I feel like I can't be without him. I need him to look after me. I'll try to work on that. Sorry for thinking it was all hopeless before and thank you so much again. I think a lot of it must be me being too scared to be away from him. I'm scared for him too and want to look after him. It's a scary thought to be all alone completely in the world. I don't have a child to think of or be there for. I've seen so many DV posts where people say their children are the only things keeping them going. It's like we're a team. Sorry. I know it's all a bit messed up. I sometimes wonder if it's possible that some people are unable to start again? Maybe once it's been a certain length of time. It's all I've ever known really and especially with bad health so shorter life expectancy it's probably more than half my life. I may be better with what I know. I keep reading about food banks having nothing because of the virus and I remember skipping lunch to save money when on benefits and being in really bad housing that was actually probably not legally safe but having no option because of it being hard to get landlords to take people on low incomes, and the intense loneliness and not being able to do anything about it because of being too unwell to try and meet people. I never really had hugs until I met him. Not my parents or my exes. He can be very loving and generous. Maybe people are right and I don't want to leave. As long as he doesn't leave or kill me, being honest that's the only things that worry me. I don't care about the other occasional stuff.

I'll go away and try to think through things.

@plantlife it would be a really good idea to look into getting some online mental health support for you during the lockdown.

Please don't ruminate any more. Just try and take it one day at a time.

I posted some resources on page 21. Something really kind and helpful you can do for yourself is perhaps email the Women's Trust or take a look at the cheap (you can get cheap therapy from counselling/therapy schools for a £5 or thereabouts) help available. Email them and see if there's anything available now. Lots of therapy is available either on the phone or online during the lockdown.

You're doing great though. I'm really, really proud of you.

@Fightingback16 is like an emotional roller coaster which huge highs and lows. It also takes up all your emotional energy and no longer having that in your life, creates a huge void. It's like giving up cocaine for some people.

I'm not surprised you're bored. Lots you can do though. Online training courses, online yoga or other types of exercise, reading etc

@12345kbm at least I have excess energy, not had that for a long time. Now to find something to focus it on.

I'm really really sorry for asking more questions. I'm trying to psyche myself up to risking doing the risk assessment. I feel sick with fear about it all. I know it's annoying people but I think I need to get it out somewhere safer, completely anonymously before I speak to them again. I've also decided I want to speak to my GP and tell her a bit more and ask for support with it. I hope there's a free appointment with her this week. Anyway it's a few things. I'm sorry for being annoying. With my health I know people think it's mostly mental health but it's not. He wouldn't let me go to appointments in the past. There's things like tests and operations I haven't had. One of them was referred on the two week cancer pathway. I never got the thing removed. I suppose because I'm still alive a year or so later it's ok but they said the longer it stays in there's a risk. It's a tiny risk but I have symptoms too, which is why they wanted to remove it. I also had kidney issues that were never investigated. The blood tests show something's wrong but I don't know what. I'm sorry I know this seems irrelevant but it's just so people understand it definitely won't just get better if I leave. It's real physical issues. My chronic conditions are made worse stress so that's definitely maybe something that might get better a but although the consultant said it's lifelong so it won't go away. Sorry rambling again. My question is do I tell them about a few things he's done that might have caused injuries but most likely are to do with my health issues? I don't know it that makes sense. One example is the kidney tests. He's hit me a few times in that part of my body but not very hard (no bruise) and the tesrs had shown a problem before he did it. I don't want to get him into trouble for something he probably didn't do. The only thing is I had a few times with bladder leaks after he hit me but it's only a few times and not bad. It's probably because of already existing problems. I actually think I won't tell the DV charity. I suppose really I want advice on whether I need to be honest with doctors. It's almost certainly not because of him as I already had an issue before the hitting there and it's probably just got worse especially as I didn't follow up with more tests. My other question is do I tell them he's said things like going out in a blaze of glory. I don't want him to kill himself so don't want him arrested. I've decided I definitely don't want that maraca meeting and they can still help without it. Sorry for the questions.

@plantlife I believe you are helping others, reading your posts you are clearly torn and almost paralysed by anxiety and feelings of such low self worth that you don't believe you are capable of living any other life apart from the one that you are in now, despite the mental and physical toll and the fact you know it will never lead you to living the rest of your life how you want it: in calm tranquility and peace of mind. I believe your struggles are caused by your toxic partner and ultimately self torture brought about by living on edge and in fear for so long that it has eroded your sense of self preservation.

It is utterly shocking my lovely, especially to others who have not experienced DV, for you to be so utterly ground down by your situation that you feels that your wings no longer fly ( they can) and that your head is telling you the door is locked and there is no hope ( there is).

These are the symptoms of someone who has and is experiencing extreme torture: feelings of isolation, resignation, fear, helplessness, lack of hope and Stockholm syndrome where you have taken on the mindset of your torturer and capturer in believing yourself to be what he has told you and going along with it and supporting it to keep the peace.

If you can find the spark of hope of self preservation you will be cheered on so much by everyone here my lovely, we believe in you. You can do it. You are worth it and a happy life awaits you if you try again x

As they say try, try and try again. Don't give up. While you have life there is hope. Please don't waste your life

Listing all the problems you may have and worrying that you have them all I found to be completely debilitating and create a massive barrier of fear. Don’t think about what is or could be wrong, an anxious mind will make you have everything. Diagnosing people on here is very dangerous, people told me you sound like you have a personality disorder, or this or that and it sent my anxiety spiralling. I look at it that you can’t see what is wrong, when you are out and seeking support for your mental health in a safe way then let the professionals help you. @plantlife just don’t worry about might or might be wrong, chances are there is nothing. 2 years ago I convinced myself I had a blood clot, then leukaemia. What a fantastic waste of a year that was, obviously I didn’t have it, I didn’t even go to the doc, I diagnosed myself. You have just like me a massive amount of anxiety and that’s just caused by living in high alert all the time. The reason you have a small clearing in the fog to think about him is because he has gone away and your anxiety has dropped a little. I’m struggling right now to downgrade mine, the mind is an absolute bastard! But there is nothing wrong, the mind is like any muscle, it gets damaged it needs a doctor and medicine and some tlc.

Although there has been one exception @12345kbm my counsellor does believe I am suffering with some of the symptoms of c-ptsd, not all but a lot so that’s the treatment I’m going down. Step 1, increase my state of safety.

@Plantlife it's really brave of you to want to see your doctor for support and from what you've written, you do need to see your doctor as soon as you can. You can't continue to ignore your physical health like this so, I hope you manage to get a doctor appointment soon. Please do confide in her and do let her know if you think the bladder problems were caused by being hit. She needs to document it all for you.

The risk assessment is just a few questions to assess you. It's called a DASH (domestic abuse, stalking and ‘honour’-based violence) and it's used to see how high your risk of serious harm is. You can read more about it here.

Please try and remember that these people, the doctor, the assessor etc are actually trying to help you, they aren't your enemies, they are trying to keep you safe. I don't know why you were told that a MARAC is only for families as that's not true. A MARAC is a multi agency approach to keeping survivors safe. It's a meeting where people like the Police, social services and usually your IDVA (independent domestic violence advocate) gather and share information so everyone is aware of what's going on.

Please try and work with everyone and be as honest as you can. Be honest with your doctor and the new domestic abuse organisation as they are trying to keep you safe. It's really important to tell people because you will get the wrong advice if you don't.

Regarding the 'blaze of glory' comments. Please do tell people about these comments. It's important for your own safety as what that may mean, is he will take you and others out with him. Abusers tend to manipulate their victims and their victims are conditioned to believe them. They often speak of suicide and self harm and other things but a lot of it is bluster. The majority of the time, they don't actually do anything it's just another tool in their arsenal to control their victim. To get them to shut up, to keep them in their place. He's frightened you with all this and when it wasn't working, he physically attacked you.

I understand that you don't want to tell people about all this but tell them everything if you can so they know what measures to put in place to protect you. You will be seen as high risk but that doesn't mean your boyfriend is going to be arrested.

It's great that you're contacting your doctor and it's also great that you're going to get back in contact with the domestic abuse organisation. These are huge strides and you should be proud. You're doing really well.

I'm so sorry you've also suffered so much and the PTSD. Someone once mentioned that to me too but I don't know if I really have the symptoms. Maybe I do especially as it's been all my life. I'm sorry you have it and so hope you get good treatment.

Anyway sorry, I hope I'm making sense. Part of me wants to say everything partly to get it out especially in case I don't make it through this but also just to try to explain properly but I'm still too scared to give every detail as I'm still trying and probably failing to not be recognised by anyone in real life. Anyway the problem for me is exactly thsy doctors and some DV charities on the past thought all my physical health was anxiety. It's not. Several times now things have been confirmed to be real by tests, scans, etc. The problem for me was a lot of the time my physical issues weren't taken seriously because of being on record as having anxiety. That's one reason why one of my conditions got so bad, the delays to treatment. The stuff with him makes it hard to fight for myself with doctors too. I know when doctors dismiss you, you need to fight for yourself. The cancer referral, it's a real tumour they said needs to be removed. It's 99% not cancer and benign but it's not me that asked for it to be removed. They said it needed to be. I'm the one who dismissed my symptoms as anxiety for ages until I had the scan. I couldn't risk an operation when he was being so awful so I left it. I think it's nothing and just benign especially as I seem fine in a no cancer feeling way, but I keep seeing threads about the virus on mumsnet where people say it's bad cancer tests and treatment are delayed so I thought maybe I shouldn't just leave it forever although I'm sure it's nothing and just a precaution the removal.

The kidney thing is real too. The blood tests showed an issue. It was me again who tried to ignore symptoms as stress for ages. Anyway I know I'm not making sense. I'm trying to explain my physical health isn't anxiety (although that probably makes it worse and maybe even helped cause it). It's real with physical tests and scans to show that but that's the problem, people including GPs in the past thought it was stress and I had to pay for private diagnoses a lot of the time. I'm trying to explain that it is genuine my health. There's more but I don't want to give every detail to try to stay a bit anonymous. It's been hard to followup with treatment because of things with him so you're right I need to try to maybe leave if I want treatment but actually a big part of me wants to ignore symptoms and pretend it's just stress caused.

Sorry for yet more rambling. I suppose my main question is about the kidney thing and a few other possible injuries by him but probably just to do with my conditions and not caused by him. I don't know if I should tell the doctors just in case it makes a difference to treatment. The bladder leaks after he hit me were probably coincidence or actually stress. I think that maybe was stress because it wasn't hard hits. I think it's probably not because of him so I don't think I need to say anything. Also he shouldn't get into trouble because it wasn't bad hits so maybe I could say it was an accident.

@plantlife unfortunately we live in a patriarchal society and women are often dismissed by the medical profession as hysterics. They are often not taken as seriously as men when they present and their symptoms often dismissed as mental health rather than physical. This causes serious harm to women, meaning that their physical illnesses aren't diagnosed quickly enough.

I'm sorry you've experienced people telling you that your physical symptoms aren't real. I do think you should tell your doctor about being hit as that may be important information. It's important to have this information documented. Please let her know even if it turns out not to be related.

Sometimes you need to be your own best advocate. You need to stand up and stand firm and insist on being taken seriously. Don't allow yourself to be dismissed.

The fact that you are beginning to look after yourself, to see yourself as worth fighting for, is really important. You're beginning to regain your self esteem. Please stop ignoring your physical health, get that operation to have the tumour removed. It may not be for a while obviously, but make sure the doctor knows to refer you.

There's a little girl inside you plantlife who wasn't cherished and loved. She wasn't told that she was special and her needs were neglected and dismissed. You need to look after her and make sure she gets the love and attention she deserves. She's your responsibility now and you need to parent her back to safety so she blossoms and thrives. Don't let her down, she's had enough of that. Go and fight for her.

Sorry. @12345kbm I posted before I saw your reply. I'm so scared and torn over how much to say to them. I don't want get him into trouble especially for something he probably didn't do. I already had problems so it probably isn't anything to do with him. He's hit me hard in the past but not there. I think he probably just wanted to scare me with the comments and also he was talking about beating up the neighbour who tried to help so it wasn't a threat to me. I think it was just his fantasies. I think he's only possibly likely to be like that if he was arrested again and charged with anything. I suppose if the charity does that meeting I could say I lied and he didn't really do or say anything. Then they couldn't arrest him. I suppose I'd be in trouble though. The website says "child protection conference, marac" so I guess my council uses it for that. I've realised that's for the best if I can get help without it. I don't want the meeting with police there and the risk of being sectioned or adult social services. Sorry for rambling. I'd better go away and try to build myself up to calling them. I don't want to be seen as high risk as I won't be able to change my mind. I think they'd still help me even if I don't tell them everything. They sounded nice and kind. He said that thing over a year ago so it's not like a recent threat.

@plantlife he's not going to be arrested. They aren't going to report him. You need to tell people the truth so they can help you. I understand you want to protect him but really, this isn't about him, this is about you getting help to keep you safe.

The MARAC isn't about him at all, it's about keep you safe. It's so the other agencies involved all know what's been going on so if they come across you, they know you the risks. They use the meeting to draw up safety plans around you. They don't use it to plot to arrest people.

Make those phone calls. Call the doctor for an appointment and contact the domestic abuse organisation and talk to them. You'll feel a lot better once you have and I'm happy to talk about it with you. No one is going to make you do anything you don't want to do.

The domestic abuse organisation will talk about all this with you, they can tell you how they can help. Give them a call and let them support you.

I’m still struggling and his behaviour is just as bad even although he claims to care. I’m calling him on his disrespectful and/or thoughtless behaviour towards me or the dc each and every time so he can not deny my experience nor claim he didn’t realise. It’s an exhausting way to live at the best of times let alone in this midst of lockdown.
Hope everyone else on the thread is doing as ok as they can in the circumstances

So I’ve been watching a Disney film with my daughter and it just came to me what has happened and is happening all the time in abuse. When you are little you are brought up in a bubble of safely (supposed to). Me and you @plantlife unfortunately haven’t, so we sought that feeling from someone else. Deep down we know that they are not right for us. They destroy our sense of inner safety, they de-stabilise us. We are unsafe in our own body and mind and unsafe in our environment, unsafe with our family and friends. Unsafe with everything but them, the person who has created all the unsafe. We bonded to the only person who has ever given us safety, although it is all lies and there game plan and we know it. The world is not as unsafe as you believe and you absolutely will be able to cope with everything once you learn to feel safe again. You can’t think too deep into what you are thinking at the moment just do it and think about it later. Trust that your thoughts at the moment are not your own, but remember that you need to go.

Does anyone know how long a recording device lasts before it's batteries need changing and are there any that don't need batteries, that just last indefinitely? I'm really sorry to ask yet more questions.

I'm really tired and emotional now, I messed up with the doctor and the local charity, and don't want to do another big long rambling post as it's annoying for everyone including me. I've been too scared for so long to speak freely with professionals. Mostly because of the fear about police involvement and the risk assessment meaning there's no going back, but another big issue is he's told me a few times he was recording me here. It was several years ago and maybe he was just trying to scare me but sometimes he seems to know things I've been saying. It's probably just to scare me. The problem is I feel I can only make calls in one room now but it's close to the neighbours. I hear their conversations so know they can hear mine. I've been too scared to risk the other more private room. Today was bad as one of them was being really noisy and I'd planned to write down things before the call but I couldn't concentrate. I think it's anxiety or PTSD maybe but I'm finding little things like that hard. It made me forget what I was going to tell her.

I fell apart and started rambling about other things already talked about, blood tests, etc and now she thinks I'm worrying about my health and the virus but I just couldn't stop rambling unnecessarily. I managed to say he'd been physically violent to me but downplayed how recently. I need to make another appointment now. I'm scared as she's referred me to a care coordinator. He's said he'll get me sectioned. Should I be worried? I messed up with the charity too. I started crying and couldn't explain anything. I'll have to call back. I think I want or need GP support with it because I trust her and but I'm panicking I'm running out of time. All I really want is to know I'm safe with him and to be certain he won't kill me but if that's not possible I think it's better to leave before the lockdown ends. I keep reading how charities expect to be even more inundated straight after it ends so I think there'll be less options of refuges or other places to go.

Sorry for rambling afterall. I'm a bit emotional but I'm going to book a new go appointment tomorrow to try again.

@Fightingback16 You seem so lovely and kind. You deserve to be happy and safe and loved. I know you're going to give all that to your child and she loves you. I hope so much things get better for you.

@Idontkowmyname I'm really sorry things are still so bad for you. I don't know if this helps but I think it's maybe best to not bother calling him out. He maybe different to my partner but with mine he seems to get worse. It's like I'm telling him ways of hurting me. He also refuses to admit it or says it's my fault for making him angry. I suppose I shouldn't advise you though as I can't stop doing it myself. It's hard not to. People suggested to me instead of calling him out, I should journal incidents. Somewhere private he won't see, like on your phone.

@plantlife you're doing amazing well. I don't think you realise how well. Don't worry about crying to the domestic abuse worker, I'm sure she's used to it. You haven't messed anything up and she's there waiting for you when you're ready.

People can't just section you. I'm not sure what's going on there but no one is going to just lock you up for rambling about coronavirus. If that was the case, in patient care would currently be overwhelmed.

Why don't you do a sweep of the rooms and sees what's there? Take a look under the bed, along shelves, have a close look at ornaments or stuffed toys and see if he has any secret devices. Also put some tape, a plaster perhaps, over the camera on your laptop. He may just be bluffing in order to keep you under control while he's not there.

You are not safe with him plantlife. You are not safe. You do need to do something before he gets back. He is dangerous and a threat to all women, not just you.

Can you get in contact with the Dr again, write down what you want to say first and refer to it while on the phone?

Tomorrow is another day. Contact the domestic abuse tomorrow and tell her what's been going on, then contact your GP as well. You're doing really well, I know how frightened you are and you're so brave. You can do this.

Please tell me if they think I'm high risk, do I get to change my mind? I suppose you can't say for sure if he'll be arrested? I don't want that for him, but even forgetting about him, I can't cope with what that would bring. He's said he'll destroy me. He has contact for my old friends and I'm scared. I don't think he's a danger to all women. He doesn't seem to like women sometimes but he says he'll be on his own if he gets rid of me. The neighbour he threatened is a man so he's not threatening other women. The other issue is if there was s court case his name might be in local paper. Everyone who knows us would obviously know my name. I can't face that.

He's being off with me and it's made me feel nervous. I don't think he's tracking me but he said something I said in a call yesterday. It's probably coincidence but I feel uneasy. I just thought any recording device would need batteries changed after a few weeks? I don't use laptop as it's shared with him. I don't think he knows my phone password but he put the SIM card in. I bought it though and was in the room with him although I suppose I could've missed something. The main possibility maybe is he pays for the internet so could maybe track through the WiFi? I don't think so and probably just being paranoid. I bought a cheap new sim this week so I have something he won't access and can put some money on the data. I can't easily check for recording devices. Nothing immediately obvious but he'd go mad if he found out I went through his stuff.

I feel deflated and drained today. I've lost the confidence again because I'm panicking I'm running out of time. I know it's stupid but I feel I need to go through the situation with my GP before doing the risk assessment. I feel I trust her and it would help me have the strength but she's not free til next week. Is that leaving it too late?

I'm worried about the care coordinator referral because he's said he'll make sure everyone knows I'm mental. He wants the neighbours to hate me and think I'm mentally ill. He says because they already hate him. I made it worse yesterday by having a mini meltdown loudly about the noise even though they've had worse noise from us. I let something so little get to me yesterday. I think because I'm so used to people deliberately hurting me, I wrongly assumed they were doing that too. The shame about everything is one reason I struggle mentally to go outside now.

I rambled on to the GP about the virus when I didn't need to, Iost my focus and now she thinks it's bad anxiety instead of what I think is rational fear, obviously she doesn't know why I'm so scared. He'll use it against me. One time the police called paramedics to do mental health assessment on me. He'd been physically violent, telling me to kill myself, and spat in my face (that's what made me fall apart as humiliating). No visible injuries as I had clothes on. He told them I was having a mental crisis. They had him sit with me as support whilst the paramedics talked to me and he answered for me. He says he'll say it's all my mental health if he's arrested again.

So sorry this is so long. My first promise to keep is shorter posts.

@plantlife Keep the appointment with your GP, next week is not too late. The lockdown will be a while longer yet.

Contact the DV organisation and do the risk assessment. He won't be arrested. Hopefully, by the time the lockdown is over, you'll be somewhere safe.

It doesn't work the way you think plantlife.

I really think you need to take this one step at a time, not deal with everything at once. Speak to the DV person tomorrow. Write down what you want to say, have a glass of water beside you if you feel tearful, stop and have a drink. Remember that I'm thinking of you and wishing you on. People are behind you, take strength from that.

The world will not come crashing down with the phone call, they just need to assess how to appropriately help you.

Make an appointment to see your GP as soon as you can but if it's not tomorrow that's fine.

We'll deal with the person threatening to have you sectioned after the phone call. I can advise on that with more details.

You can now access help from any Boots from today.

Go to the counter and ask for the 'Safe space consultation room'. Once there, there will be various helpline numbers available (which are all available on this thread on the first page).

This is for those without the opportunity to call for help because they are with their partner 24/7. If your abuser is with you at Boots, then tell them that you have thrush or something of a personal nature that you need discuss in private with the pharmacist.

You can also download the Brightsky App

These safe spaces are an initiative by Hestia who are hoping that other pharmacies may follow.

The one thing i strongly advise is to call police
You know when those spitting crazy rages kick off ? Call the fuxking police on them

It does calm things down till you can make a
Plan