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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

is this a big red flag? Or am I a big red flag?

648 replies

aquickfiresidechat · 25/01/2020 23:19

I've been dating someone for a year. He works in the Geneva office of my company and he travels to London, and I to Geneva, once every other week, so it works out that we have seen each other for a period of days (2 or 3) each week staying at each other's flats/or hotels.

In the company we have a bulletin that goes round daily saying who is in which office within Europe. New man and I also have access to each other's calendars so some days I like to see what he is up to and imagine him going about his day and I always imagined he liked this too.

Anyway, we both went away separately for Christmas and came back early January. We were talking and chatting regularly on the phone like we always do about when we could next see each other. He then went on a business trip and was busy with meetings and time difference, so we did not get a chance to speak much.

Two weeks ago, I noticed on the company bulletin that he was due to be in London the next day. I assumed he had just forgotten to mention it being so busy and that he would make arrangements with me shortly. The next day came and he was not in the office. I double clicked on his diary and saw that he was in meetings in London but not coming into the office.

I sent him a message and said "why didn't you tell me you are in London? Can we see each other tonight?" He texted back a bit short and told me to meet him for a drink after work.

I arrived and asked him how he was. He said, "shocked." I said "why shocked?" he said "because you have been going through my diary and checking up on me." I said "but we have access to each other's diaries, I saw you were in London, and I assumed we'd see each other?" He sat there open mouthed for about 10 mins while I tried to justify why I had looked at his diary and questioned him.

When I got upset he became softer and said he wanted to make me happy and he was sorry for not telling me, but he had terrible jetlag, was completely underwater with work and not yet recovered from Christmas and just felt he needed a night to sleep. He cancelled his client dinner and we spent most of the evening talking about it. I was actually crying because I was so shocked at the sudden attitude change. He asked me to stay the night and I was still quite upset and said no, and we went our separate ways and he flew back to Geneva the next day. We agreed that we would communicate openly about when he is in London going forward.

The next morning he rang me before his flight, quite agitated and said that he had not slept a wink because he felt quite angry that I would demand he see me every time he is in London. He said it had nothing to do with seeing anyone else or not wanting the relationship, but he would be travelling to the UK more frequently and just the thought that, that would be my expectation every single time he was here felt very demanding. His justification for this was that he was most often knackered and would have evening meetings with clients or customers and therefore would not want to trek over to my flat at 11pm or midnight and then fly back to Geneva the next day. He said "you are my priority, but you cannot be my priority all the time." While I wasn't really happy with this, we agreed that he would tell me when he was in London even if he was not going to see me.

I found this new arrangement quite difficult to understand, as this was obviously not our previous pattern, so I didn't feel I was delusional or imagining the relationship was more than it was, for expecting the previous pattern to continue, even though at the time he was telling me this I was apologising rather than justifying my thought process. I felt that he reset the relationship and bamboozled me into thinking that questioning him or his behaviour was stalker-esque or obsessive.

We carried on speaking on the phone every day and texting a lot (it's always him initiating contact. He calls me about five times a day just to chat,) Three days later the company bulletin came again saying that he was in London. He had not told me this.

I double clicked on his diary only to see that he had codified it. Ie, replaced information with a letter and a number. All bookings and reservations that he usually made and I could previously see were now password protected and then diary entries had been made private. Seeing this made me feel like a stalker and made me think that he thought I was a stalker.

He carried on throughout the day communicating with me as normal. I did not ask him where he was. At around 7pm he said he was off to a client dinner and that he would sign off the the night as it would be late. I assume he thought I thought he was in Geneva.

I don't know what got into me but I felt I wanted to know for sure, so at midnight I went to the hotel he normally stays at while here, and I waited in a bar over the road where I could see the door. Lo and behold, I saw him returning to the hotel and going in late. Alone.

I texted him. "Hey can we talk?" He replied immediately. "Sorry, no. Off to bed."

I felt humiliated and embarrassed of myself and like a true stalker. The next morning I decided it was over. I felt that if I told him the reasons why (I was upset he had coded his diary and I had spied on him outside his hotel) it would give me more reasons to feel embarrassed. So I just stopped communicating with him entirely.

Two weeks went by and I ignored all calls and messages and took a week off work to go away and switched my phone off. When I came back to work, I found him in my office, beside himself. Why had I done this to him? What was my problem? Why had I not replied to him? What did I think I was doing? He had been in London looking for me etc.

I've agreed to chat to him about it all on Wednesday when I am next in Geneva. I don't trust him. I cant tell him why.

I don't know anymore whether his behaviour is the red flag or whether mine is.

What do you think??

OP posts:
12345kbm · 26/01/2020 17:16

What the OP did is not considered 'stalking'. Stalking is a pattern of behaviour that makes the victim feel distressed and scared. It's defined by the National Stalking Helpline as:

A pattern of fixated and obsessive behaviour which is repeated, persistent, intrusive and causes fear of violence or engenders alarm and distress in the victim.

First the OP has never gone to a pub across the road from her bf and waited for him to enter the hotel before; therefore it's not a pattern of behaviour. Secondly, her behaviour hasn't caused him to fear violence or engendered alarm.

People approach relationships differently and I really don't see how her checking his work schedule is abnormal. Most people like to know when their partner is in the country or going to be around. Some people even go to the airport to collect their partner - stalker!

They have different relationship styles and it's not going to work because his approach causes high anxiety in the OP. You always know when a relationship is wrong for you when it makes you anxious and behave out of character. Time to cut your losses and move on.

TatianaLarina · 26/01/2020 17:20

Bottom line is - some people like LDR because they don’t have to see their partner all the time.

This guy wants to see OP sometimes. He’s now coming to her city more often but he doesn’t want to see her every time, because the amount he sees her is just fine.

Rather than have a tricky conversation where he has to explain he will be in London more often but won’t always see her, he avoids it and doesn’t tell her.

When she finds out, she’s thrown, because the relationship she thought she was in, is not the one she is actually in.

If it was simply the case that he would be in London more often, but wouldn’t always have time to see her - finishing late and having to be back in Geneva the next morning - why wouldn’t he just tell her that? Then there would be no issue.

Frenchw1fe · 26/01/2020 17:34

The guy sends a strong back off message by codifying his calendar but OP is wrong to ghost him?
I don't think you guys are suited as neither of you seems to be happy with the relationship.

Scarsthelot · 26/01/2020 17:35

First the OP has never gone to a pub across the road from her bf and waited for him to enter the hotel before; therefore it's not apatternof behaviour.

You mis understand what a pattern of behaviour is.

You dont have to do the exact same thing over and over. The pattern of behaviour is checking up on him. Checking his diary, wanting him to tell her when he is in town (even when she already knows), sitting in a bar across from the hotel, texting him when he was going in wanting to talk at midnight, when he had told her he was often tired when he was in London (so ignoring what he had already said before).

The pattern of behaviour is there. She checks up on him. Alot.

He was quite alarmed.

YasssKween · 26/01/2020 17:37

And again if this was a man behaving like this to a woman, insisting to know where she is, insisting to see her when she was near, crying and being upset for hours to the extent she needed to cancel a client meeting to continue to talk through his upset, when he didn't tell her once, and then going and waiting outside her hotel late at night to see if he could see her and if she was alone, then texting her from outside her hotel after midnight asking her to talk, likely wanting to get in there with her, "I've been out with friends and am close, shall I pop by " kind of thing, as why else ask her. to talk in the wee small hours when you've just seen her come back and you're standing outside her hotel... and then ghosted her over it all.

This. Absolutely this.

Not a chance anyone would say this behaviour was OK if the OP was male.

It doesn't matter really whether it's called stalking, spying or just plain creepy - regardless of the label her behaviour was totally out of order.

If you're at the stage you're considering going out of your way to go to a bar specifically to have view of your partner's hotel door to check they are where they say they are, the relationship is over and you should be mature enough to end it rather than actually going through with such a plan.

The relationship is toxic now, trust has gone and paranoia has set in. If it's come to this after a year then it's not going to work.

Let it go and move on, learn from this that if you're considering spying on someone it's game over anyway, so don't do it.

BumbleBeee69 · 26/01/2020 17:40

First the OP has never gone to a pub across the road from her bf and waited for him to enter the hotel before; therefore it's not a pattern of behaviour

there's got to be a DAY 1 ... of irrational behaviour though right ? your actions create the pattern.. just a thought

sciencegirl91 · 26/01/2020 17:41

OP I really feel for you, you got into an emotional spiral and acted in a way which you clearly know isn’t healthy. I’m sympathising and not judging. Like a pp I wonder if you have an insecure/anxious attachment style and you might help yourself by reading up on it. I was (am?) an anxious attacher and I recognised my thought processes and behaviours in your post (sorry if this is just projection!!)

Your partner pulled back from you emotionally and you were upset and had a conversation about it- totally normal. A secure attacher is able to have that conversation confidently, knowing how they expect to be treated. The fact that you were so hurt and crying suggests you didn’t feel like you had the power (for want of a better word) to negotiate to be treated well. Then he pulled away further (encoding calendar, not telling you he was in London), making it very clear he wanted space. But instead of either deciding to give him space or simply telling him that you didn’t want a relationship on those terms (which is totally reasonable), you stay silent and check on his hotel. Even now you are still wondering if you can salvage this relationship, and most of us can’t understand why you’d want to. Which brings me into my last point...

It’s not clear what the nature/status of your relationship was but you say you were ‘dating’, call him ‘new man’ and then ‘lover’ but not partner or boyfriend. I wonder (sorry again if projecting) whether the relationship was never properly defined and you never felt able to have that conversation because you were afraid of how it would go. Accepting ‘less than’ relationships is a classic anxious attacher thing. As is being more invested than the other person and thinking about the relationship all the time. People with healthy attitudes to relationships (and I feel like I almost am one now) are prepared to end poor relationships because they know they deserve better. There’s a book called Attached which I’d recommend if any of this is ringing true.

wheresmymojo · 26/01/2020 17:43

A bit random but just checking his initials aren't DT?

Meemm · 26/01/2020 17:46

He sounds like he wants some space and you seem a bit like a psycho stalker. Have a chat with him and then try to leave it on good terms and get on with your life without him.

alwaysmovingforwards · 26/01/2020 17:48

OP, you come across as needy, hard work and suffocating. Sounds like he's very busy and needs downtime which he's totally entitled to.
Why should he have to see you all the time he is free and in the area? And why should he accept you snooping through his diary??
If I was a gambler I'd place a bet that he's going to end it with you sometime soon.

You sound like a headache. Seriously, flip this around. If a man was doing this to a woman, MN would be calling him a controlling narcissist waving red flags around.

12345kbm · 26/01/2020 17:54

@Scarsthelot I haven't misunderstood what a pattern of behaviour is. Doing something once is not a pattern of behaviour. Checking your boyfriend's schedule is not stalking! Get a grip.

Wanting to know when someone you are in a relationship with is in the country is not stalking. Otherwise everyone in a relationship is stalking their partner. His work diary is freely available, she hasn't hacked into it.

A pattern of behaviour is persistent and intrusive, not a one off event. Texting someone one evening as they are going into a hotel is not persistent behaviour is it. Doing it every time he's in the country is. Following him to work is. Bombarding him with texts, messages and phone calls is. Threatening him is.

Being upset with your boyfriend because he's avoiding you whilst saying something else is understandable. People are allowed to get upset without it being a criminal offence.

YasssKween · 26/01/2020 18:00

Checking your boyfriend's schedule is not stalking! Get a grip. Wanting to know when someone you are in a relationship with is in the country is not stalking. Otherwise everyone in a relationship is stalking their partner. His work diary is freely available, she hasn't hacked into it.

Whether "stalking" or not, your list has rather conveniently left out going to a bar to have sight of your partner's hotel door to spy on them...

Surely regardless of how it's labelled (stalking / spying / intruding) you see that's creepy as fuck?

NettleTea · 26/01/2020 18:07

Yes, something in the relationship changed, as OP has said

The boyfriend was going to be coming MORE frequently and also, as he explained, having MORE late night meetings.

I expect boyfriend was quite happy to see OP on the times he came when he wasnt finishing late and then jetting straight back the next morning. Which is what he said.

Even the time he came over and OP sat and watched him, she admits he came in late. So no doubt, as he had said, a late meeting followed by a probably early flight back.

I imagine he wouldnt bother mentioning a trip to London if he knew it was one where he had these late evenings - whats the point? He would only be able to say "Im coming but wont have time / will be too tired to see you" and he knows how badly that went before. And his movements are still visible on the calendar, so its no secret.

I think OP has handled it wrong

I also think she is ghosting us now and we wont have any update

Scarsthelot · 26/01/2020 18:12

I haven't misunderstood what a pattern of behaviour is. Doing somethingonceis not a pattern of behaviour. Checking your boyfriend's schedule is not stalking! Get a grip.

Checking your boyfriend schedule so you know his exact movements (wether he is going to the office or not) and doing this every day so you can imagine him going about his day, and then sitting across from his hotel to see what he is doing.....is a pattern of behaviour. It's a concerning one. OP has shown several times, she tracks his movements.

Wanting to know when someone you are in a relationship with is in the country is not stalking. Otherwise everyone in a relationship is stalking their partner. His work diary is freely available, she hasn't hacked into it.

She knows. He knows she knows because it's in the company bulletin. Why does he need to explicitly tell her something both of them know, she is aware of. Again, pattern of behaviour. Using the company bulletin to be aware of his movements. But still wants him to tell her information she already knows.

He was alarmed when he realised the deorg that she looked at his dairy and changed what he adds into it. Why? Bveuaee it made him uncomfortable. Just like her assumption that they must see eachother, when he is here, makes him uncomfortable. Yet op continues to use his diary that way.

I travel for work, if dp knew which country I was in and i know he knows, why I am obligated to point it out again? .

You seen woefully uneducated about patterns of behaviour and stalking. Do you think stalkers jump straight to sitting out someones house and threatening them every night?

LovePoppy · 26/01/2020 18:15

I also think she is ghosting us now and we wont have any update

We should all applaud her for this too. It’s how strong, rational, people deal with things. Apparently.

12345kbm · 26/01/2020 18:21

Checking your boyfriend schedule so you know his exact movements (wether he is going to the office or not) and doing this every day so you can imagine him going about his day, and then sitting across from his hotel to see what he is doing.....is a pattern of behaviour. It's a concerning one. OP has shown several times, she tracks his movements

It would be if that is what is actually happening. Where in the OP does it say she is checking his schedule to know his exact movements? She doesn't check his movements. You're more frightening than anything the OP is saying.

Scarsthelot · 26/01/2020 18:27

She says in her op she likes to imagine him going about his day so checks his calendar. She also knows all his movement from the the diary and company bulliten, as well. Which apparantly comes out every couple of days announcing a colleague will be in london.

AND she sat in a bar across from his hotel.

She knew he was in London. She read it on the bulletin

He knew, she knew ...because it was in the bulletin that she used before to know where he was.

They were both also aeare he would. Not be seeing ger everytime he was in london.

Can you explain why he needed to teirerate information they both knew, she was aware of. Also, you said it's not causing alarm. Yes it is.

She knew he wasnt seeing her that night. Regardless of where he was so went and sat across from his hotel until after midnight.

If you think this behaviour is normal, then you may need some help yourself.

Scarsthelot · 26/01/2020 18:28

Oh and the ghosting was to provoke a reaction. Bo other reason. If she wanted to end it. She wound have ended it.

I agree, it seems like he isnt interested. Probably because he was happy with the way things were. OP assumed every visit to london epild include seeing her and he didnt want that. When he told her that hr had to cancel plans because she was so distraught.

I would be backing away as well.

Lefkosia · 26/01/2020 18:33

I feel really sorry for the boyfriend tbh. OP you seem really suffocating and like the poor guy cant get a moment's peace. The company calendar is not provided so you can check up on his whereabouts and moon about imagining how hes spending his day. It's to arrange meetings and phone calls.

I would be attempting to extricate myself if I was him

Tubernose · 26/01/2020 18:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Tubernose · 26/01/2020 18:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LovePoppy · 26/01/2020 18:45

So basically

He made her do it. It’s not her fault. he made her do it.

Gotcha

Catsandchardonnay · 26/01/2020 19:00

I would say that you are the red flag, sorry.

I think it’s perfectly reasonable of him to not want to trek to your flat that late at night every time he’s in London when he’s knackered from work and then have to fly back to Geneva the next day. I think he felt under pressure because you were expecting too much from him and that’s why he changed his diary.

To then not reply to any of his calls and messages is just weird frankly. He probably had no idea there was any problem between you at all. And stalking his hotel is weird too. He wasn’t doing anything wrong, he just hadn’t told him you were coming over after the way you’d behaved last time. I can’t really blame him tbh.

BumbleBeee69 · 26/01/2020 19:01

I feel really sorry for the boyfriend tbh.

I do too..

Weirdomagnet · 26/01/2020 19:15

Exactly what @TatianaLarina said (back on page 2, sorry!)