is this a big red flag? Or am I a big red flag?

[aquickfiresidechat]

I've been dating someone for a year. He works in the Geneva office of my company and he travels to London, and I to Geneva, once every other week, so it works out that we have seen each other for a period of days (2 or 3) each week staying at each other's flats/or hotels.

In the company we have a bulletin that goes round daily saying who is in which office within Europe. New man and I also have access to each other's calendars so some days I like to see what he is up to and imagine him going about his day and I always imagined he liked this too.

Anyway, we both went away separately for Christmas and came back early January. We were talking and chatting regularly on the phone like we always do about when we could next see each other. He then went on a business trip and was busy with meetings and time difference, so we did not get a chance to speak much.

Two weeks ago, I noticed on the company bulletin that he was due to be in London the next day. I assumed he had just forgotten to mention it being so busy and that he would make arrangements with me shortly. The next day came and he was not in the office. I double clicked on his diary and saw that he was in meetings in London but not coming into the office.

I sent him a message and said "why didn't you tell me you are in London? Can we see each other tonight?" He texted back a bit short and told me to meet him for a drink after work.

I arrived and asked him how he was. He said, "shocked." I said "why shocked?" he said "because you have been going through my diary and checking up on me." I said "but we have access to each other's diaries, I saw you were in London, and I assumed we'd see each other?" He sat there open mouthed for about 10 mins while I tried to justify why I had looked at his diary and questioned him.

When I got upset he became softer and said he wanted to make me happy and he was sorry for not telling me, but he had terrible jetlag, was completely underwater with work and not yet recovered from Christmas and just felt he needed a night to sleep. He cancelled his client dinner and we spent most of the evening talking about it. I was actually crying because I was so shocked at the sudden attitude change. He asked me to stay the night and I was still quite upset and said no, and we went our separate ways and he flew back to Geneva the next day. We agreed that we would communicate openly about when he is in London going forward.

The next morning he rang me before his flight, quite agitated and said that he had not slept a wink because he felt quite angry that I would demand he see me every time he is in London. He said it had nothing to do with seeing anyone else or not wanting the relationship, but he would be travelling to the UK more frequently and just the thought that, that would be my expectation every single time he was here felt very demanding. His justification for this was that he was most often knackered and would have evening meetings with clients or customers and therefore would not want to trek over to my flat at 11pm or midnight and then fly back to Geneva the next day. He said "you are my priority, but you cannot be my priority all the time." While I wasn't really happy with this, we agreed that he would tell me when he was in London even if he was not going to see me.

I found this new arrangement quite difficult to understand, as this was obviously not our previous pattern, so I didn't feel I was delusional or imagining the relationship was more than it was, for expecting the previous pattern to continue, even though at the time he was telling me this I was apologising rather than justifying my thought process. I felt that he reset the relationship and bamboozled me into thinking that questioning him or his behaviour was stalker-esque or obsessive.

We carried on speaking on the phone every day and texting a lot (it's always him initiating contact. He calls me about five times a day just to chat,) Three days later the company bulletin came again saying that he was in London. He had not told me this.

I double clicked on his diary only to see that he had codified it. Ie, replaced information with a letter and a number. All bookings and reservations that he usually made and I could previously see were now password protected and then diary entries had been made private. Seeing this made me feel like a stalker and made me think that he thought I was a stalker.

He carried on throughout the day communicating with me as normal. I did not ask him where he was. At around 7pm he said he was off to a client dinner and that he would sign off the the night as it would be late. I assume he thought I thought he was in Geneva.

I don't know what got into me but I felt I wanted to know for sure, so at midnight I went to the hotel he normally stays at while here, and I waited in a bar over the road where I could see the door. Lo and behold, I saw him returning to the hotel and going in late. Alone.

I texted him. "Hey can we talk?" He replied immediately. "Sorry, no. Off to bed."

I felt humiliated and embarrassed of myself and like a true stalker. The next morning I decided it was over. I felt that if I told him the reasons why (I was upset he had coded his diary and I had spied on him outside his hotel) it would give me more reasons to feel embarrassed. So I just stopped communicating with him entirely.

Two weeks went by and I ignored all calls and messages and took a week off work to go away and switched my phone off. When I came back to work, I found him in my office, beside himself. Why had I done this to him? What was my problem? Why had I not replied to him? What did I think I was doing? He had been in London looking for me etc.

I've agreed to chat to him about it all on Wednesday when I am next in Geneva. I don't trust him. I cant tell him why.

I don't know anymore whether his behaviour is the red flag or whether mine is.

What do you think??

@adaline

Are we really so unforgiving that we call one emotional response enough to call someone irrational?

She didn’t know he was in London. She found out and was shocked because it was abnormal behavior. She cares about him and had all indication that they were closer. Getting upset doesn’t make her crazy. It makes her human.

If he thinks that’s not normal, then why did he act so crazy himself after she backed away? If he doesn’t care about her feelings enough to understand her being upset then she needs to run, run, run!

He doesn’t know about the hotel thing; we do. Not her shining moment. Are you perfect? I am not!

He showed her they were not close as she thought, then agreed to be honest, then lied. As a result she backed way away.

Why does he have a right to lie about his whereabouts, but she has to keep in constant touch with him and share all of her plans after finding out he’s lying?

I just don’t see why we have to make one person right and another wrong. I don’t think he’s a horrible guy, but our actions in a relationship have an effect. He clearly doesn’t understand that.

His hiding his London trips when it’s printed in the bulletin is the equivalent of a baby thinking if they put their hands over their eyes no one can see them.

On another note; why am I obsessed with this thread?!

And, in view of all his secrecy about visiting London, wanting to find out if he's bringing someone else back his hotel room is pretty natural

If you discover that your bf of a year is visiting your city without telling you, what are the options?

Either a. He’s just not that into you. b. He’s seeing someone else c. He’s doing stuff he doesn’t want you to find out about - strip clubs, drugs, hookers whatever. d. He’s decided, without asking you, that you will want to see him every time so he doesn’t tell you.

In order to establish a. or d. you need to rule out b. and c. Given that he doesn’t live in your country how will you establish b. or b. other than check up whether he is where he says he will be, and alone?

She knew the company bulletin said he was in London. This seemed odd to her because he had always told her in the past. She didn't know HE was in London. Like, do I think hanging around outside his hotel is great? Nope, but neither does the OP. But the cancelled client meeting wasn't because he was in London and wanted a rest, it was because he was in London and had completely altered their normal pattern without saying anything.
Would OP have kicked off if he had said he was in London but too busy to see her? Maybe, maybe not, but none of us will ever no because he never gave her that chance. Instead, he (unilaterally) decided it was too much bother to have that conversation, and then was pissed off when he had to have a more difficult one because he got caught--not actually because of the work diary, but because of the (public) company bulletin.
Have any of you who are laying into the OP ever been lied to or gaslit about something important by someone you love? It's disorienting and miserable, and forces you to choose between the truth you know, and what you are being told by a loved one. It is, to put it frankly, shit. That doesn't mean the OP was ok to wait outside the hotel, but it might explain the upset she felt when he (essentially) lied by omission not telling her about being in London the first time any of the five times he called her that day.
There is a strong whiff on this thread of OP should just have sucked up any behaviour from him, no matter how much it hurt her or disoriented her. She shouldn't be upset if he wants a night alone, even if it is a complete change from normal behaviour. She shouldn't even ask him about it, because, that would be crowding him. That, to me, is a bit of a stretch.

Why did he have to tell her? When theres a company newsletter that tells her. Why does he need to confirm this with her if he isnt seeing her

Because they’ve been in relationship for a year - based on a pattern of seeing each other when one of them is in London and the other is in Geneva.

Would OP have kicked off if he had said he was in London but too busy to see her? Maybe, maybe not, but none of us will ever no because he never gave her that chance. Instead, he (unilaterally) decided it was too much bother to have that conversation, and then was pissed off when he had to have a more difficult one because he got caught.

Yep.

No he didn’t

Yeah he did know she wasn't happy about it, he phoned her the next morning and told her it wasn't acceptable she wished to see him every single time. It's right there in her op. He knew and called her out on it.

She then tells us she "didn't understand " it, so not accepting he was tired at midnight and didn't want to always schlep across London to see her.

And why does he always have to tell her where he is? Yes he agreed to it, but not because he wished to. Obviously or he wouldn't have blocked her from seeing his calendar.

And again if this was a man behaving like this to a woman, insisting to know where she is, insisting to see her when she was near, crying and being upset for hours to the extent she needed to cancel a client meeting to continue to talk through his upset, when he didn't tell her once, and then going and waiting outside her hotel late at night to see if he could see her and if she was alone, then texting her from outside her hotel after midnight asking her to talk, likely wanting to get in there with her, "I've been out with friends and am close, shall I pop by " kind of thing, as why else ask her. to talk in the wee small hours when you've just seen her come back and you're standing outside her hotel...
and then ghosted her over it all.

And it was stalking, it may not have been prolonged, but she resorted to stalking him, and the behavuour overall was deeply unhealthy.

Hes shown you that he and you have different ideas about what you want in a relationship.

He wants someone "chill", who doesn't check where he is, doesn't have expectations of him, who he can keep distance from when he wants to do other things.

That's actually perfectly fine, I am like that myself, definitely a year in I would have felt as he does. Theres nothing wrong with that.

However, you have completely different expectations and his way of doing things clearly makes you feel crazy and very mistrustful, insecure, etc. The way you acted would have sent me running instantly tbh.

You have no right to his time or communication. "Investing" a year of dating doesnt make you deserving of more and more time. If he wants space, that's what he wants. It sounds like you're the kind of person for whom if things change a bit, you panic and start acting a little crazy - he needs someone who is a little cooler and more distant, and that is ok. Hes allowed to want that, it doesnt make him a bad guy.

In answer to your question, I would say you are the red flag here. He showed you who he was, and instead of accepting it with grace, or thinking of how he might feel and balancing that with your own feelings, you stalked him and then ghosted him. That's not a normal response.

Do you have an anxious attachment style? He may have triggered it unknowingly and thats what caused your very strange response?

That’s not what you were asked.
But no one lurked outside a hotel, man, woman or chimpanzee so anything else is hypothetical.
Do I understand why she did it, yes. Agreement that what was done was understandable.

I hope that clarifies that little matter.

“
He explained to her he couldn't see her every time, he was going to be coming more often, he has late client meetings, She was not happy about this. Clearly he knew that.

No he didn’t. ”

Yes he did! After she had massively kicked off because he had not hid the fact he was in London and didn’t want to see her on one occasion.

Good to know that if a man sits in a bar to watch the entrance of the hotel that his girlfriend might be staying at, it's not stalking if he only does it once, and he's skulking in a bar and not in an outside doorway.

Forgetting all the rest of it, ghosting him for a week because you were pissed off was immature and calculated. Communication comes second only to trust in a relationship, surely? Sneaking around, second guessing, lurking, and then cutting off contact. What a fucking nightmare.

“ She shouldn't be upset if he wants a night alone, even if it is a complete change from normal behaviour. She shouldn't even ask him about it, because, that would be crowding him. That, to me, is a bit of a stretch.”

This is incredible.

“Are you coming over tonight?”
“Not, will be quite a day and could do with just a quiet one in the hotel”
“Ah ok, no worries. Talk tomorrow.”

That would be normal.

What happened though instead was that she went nuts and he had to cancel a client meeting and deal with her tears and tantrums.

Then he explained he couldn’t always see her every single time he was on a short trip to London. He ended up having to concede that he would at least let her know if he was in London, which he had never not done before.

Then a London visit came out on the bulletin, which he knew she would see, and he then report in personally that he was coming. Crime of the century or what?

The response to this was stalking his diary, getting into a state because he had changed the settings after having been made to agree to report in so she could pressure him, then to hang around outside his hotel and watch him and then to completely vanish and ghost him.

So sad to see so many women supporting this behaviour because it is a woman. Also though, very encouraging to see so many calling the behaviour for what it is.

Which is what the OP asked for in the very title of the thread.

But no one lurked outside a hotel, man, woman or chimpanzee so anything else is hypothetical.

OP's own words.......

I felt I wanted to know for sure, so at midnight I went to the hotel he normally stays at while here, and I waited in a bar over the road where I could see the door. Lo and behold, I saw him returning to the hotel and going in late. Alone

So.... a Bar over the road where she could see the door THEN....

OP. Sorry but he's just not that into you, not as much as you are into him. His distancing behaviour has made you feel and act the way you did. Find someone who would jump at the chance to see you more often.

No one who thinks ops behaviour is fine can answer. But given this company bulletin tells everyone about his where abouts, why does he need to then tell her he is in London.

He knows theres a bulletin, she knows there is. He is telling her something she already knows. I find having to tell her where he is all the time very odd. Or is it only london? Even when she isnt seeing him?

If it doesnt involve her making arrangements it doesnt matter what city he is in.

“Are you coming over tonight?”
“Not, will be quite a day and could do with just a quiet one in the hotel”
“Ah ok, no worries. Talk tomorrow.”

That wasn't what happened though, was it? It's the departure from normal behaviour that is likely to be upsetting, not the need for time alone.

I'm with Bluntness, your behavious was out of whack, OP.

You've been checking his diary regularly to "imagine him going about his day." That's pretty intense but if it were the same for both of you, fair enough.
He hasn't, and tells you he's shocked and discomfitted by that level of scrutiny. He's had to cancel a client meeting because you were so distressed he wasn't seeing you when in London and he tried to smooth things over.

You see from the company bulletin that he's in London again, and rather than message him "hey, I see from CB you're around this week, fancy dinner?" you read his calendar - that he specifically said he was uncomfortable with you checking - only to discover he's put less information on it. Then you message him through the day to see if you can catch him out. you end the day sit in the window of a bar watching a hotel door, text him as he arrives at midnight (WTF?) and ghost him for 2 weeks.

Leave this man. He's not good for you. You're descending into the sort of person you know you're better than.

I don't think either of you have behaved particularly maturely here, but I am more on the side of your boyfriend OP.

Did you ever actually reference checking up on each other's diaries when talking before? It sounds like he knew he had access to yours but never really did, especially not in the romantic daydream way you appear to be. Some days I like to see what he is up to and imagine him going about his day and I always imagined he liked this too. sounds like projection on your part. There's nothing wrong with not being the sort of person to do this. I would also feel quite blindsided if suddenly I found out my partner was using the shared diary access in a very different way than I was, and in a way that felt quite intrusive.

Up to there, this seems like it should have been an easy resolve with a grown up conversation about how you have different ways of being in relationships, with understanding of each other's viewpoints. After that though, my sympathy for you wanes.

Even though he's put forward a perfectly reasonable viewpoint about not needing to see each other every time you're in the same city, you've clearly rejected it and are just going along with it grudgingly. I agree with PP, why does he need to tell you he's in London? You know when he's in London, you can see the company bulletin. What purpose does it serve him specifically telling you, other than giving you an opportunity for him to feel guilty about not wanting to meet. (as you've made it quite clear to him that you are not happy with this.)

You have two very different relationship styles, and I'm not sure they're compatible going forward. If he didn't realise how much you were utilising the joint diary access before this, I'm not surprised he backed off and tried to compartmentalise a bit. I'd think not telling you he was in London again was just very ineptly trying to avoid more conflict.

And I really don't understand the motivation behind going to watch his hotel? Were you worried he was with another woman? Or was it literally just to see whether he was actually there and hadn't told you? I could understand the first. The second is ridiculous, sorry. I'm also not sure stalking is a useful word, but it's definitely a sign of an unhealthy attachment and fixation with him.

If you want to continue this relationship you both need to be honest (though maybe not about the hotel thing, that's possibly a funny anecdote ten years down the line when this is all history) and prepare to actually accept how he feels without seeing it as a personal slight. If I was him in this relationship I'd feel incredibly claustrophobic and put upon.

This is a man who doesn't know what he wants. He obviously likes you but isn't ready for commitment, backs off if he feels you are too keen. He is behaving stupidly but that's how he is. Who knows what the future holds - he could change, people do, but you must branch out a bit for your own self protection.

Just be friendly, don't fall over backwards to accommodate him and make the most of your life without him - in other words, keep options open. I know that isn't easy when you are keen but he has hurt you.

Good luck.

Yeah he did know she wasn't happy about it, he phoned her the next morning and told her it wasn't acceptable she wished to see him every single time. It's right there in her op. He knew and called her out on it.

He knew that she wasn’t happy about the one incident she discovered he hadn’t told her she was in London. He extrapolated from that that, as he was coming to London more frequently, she would demand to see him every time.

But she didn’t know he was coming to London more frequently because he hadn’t told her at that point. And he hadn’t ever asked about how she would feel about it - so that was purely an assumption.

If he’d said at the get go that he would be in London more often but wouldn’t always have time to see her, she would have known where she stood.

But no one lurked outside a hotel, man, woman or chimpanzee so anything else is hypothetical.

Of course she did. She deliberately went to sit in a bar over the road to spy on him! What other word would you use to describe that kind of behaviour?

Clearly we will not get a consensus as to who was being more unreasonable.

But something in the relationship has evidently changed. After spending every possible opportunity together for nearly a year, they spent Christmas apart. Whose idea was that?

And then he stopped seeing her and started hiding his trips to London. It seems that his feelings have changed. Has he noticed that OP's feelings have become more serious?

Was he trying to dial his commitment back and turn the relationship into a FWB type thing? And now he may be panicking because he'll miss his booty calls...

@saraclara, that’s how I’m reading it too.

God help us all.

@myhoodie you’ve twisted my intent and you know it. Understanding why she did it, doesn’t make it understandable. It was not rational, not sane and stalkerish behaviour. She followed it up with the abusive “ghosting”. So yes, she’s the red flag.

They both might be. Who knows.

But her, watching his hotel and spying was wrong on so many levels.

@Sagradafamiliar she ignored him for two weeks and went on holiday the third.

So three weeks of ghosting.

But, apparently that’s to be applauded now

“ That wasn't what happened though, was it? It's the departure from normal behaviour that is likely to be upsetting, not the need for time alone.”

Yes it was.

Then another time after that he didn’t volunteer the information. This led to summit talks where he conceded to let her know if he was going to be in London even if he couldn’t see her that time.

Then the bulletin came out.
Then he didn’t personally let her know.
Then the drama.