Do you think that some people are just unloveable?

[NeverBeenLoved]

That's it really.

Do you think that some people are just simply unloveable?

As in they don't possess any of the qualities required for someone to love them? Or, if they do, it is simply not enough to outweigh their unloveableness.

"it's a nice idea but every man I've ever dated? How come other people I know don't have this issue?"

How many have you dated? I think that yes, most of the women you know will have dated guys like this, ended the relationship quickly when it happened, moved on without much of a second thought, and eventually found someone that treats them well. Dating is a numbers game.

How many? Well a great deal over the years!!

Been thinking about this and was strongly reminded of Jeanette Winterson in her second autobiography, where she follows on from Oranges are Not the Only Fruit and fills in the gaps. There's a part in it where Susie Orbach tells her that she doesn't know how to be loved. I think this may be your problem.

It's completely different from being 'unlovable'. Being able to recognise and accept love is a skill, and, if you haven't had a good foundation due to abusive or neglectful family, a difficult one to learn. How do you recognise that someone cares for you? Following that, how do you know they want what's best for you? And if they do want what's best for you and truly care, are you able to return that? One or all of those processes, which should be instinctive in those of us with normal loving parents, is likely to be disturbed or out of sync where abuse has taken place. I think you feel that there is a black hole of neediness at your core that you don't feel it fair for anyone to glimpse, so you go all Vulcan and keep it tightly controlled. The trouble with that is, it leaks out in unexpected ways. Maybe it produces a 'noli me tangere' vibe that keeps others at a distance but also is self-protective to an extent?

And the Philip Schofield headlines today have made me wonder if there's more to your aversion to being complimented on your body? LGBT fiftysomethings very often had to shut down their sexuality growing up, to the extent that some of them weren't really aware they weren't straight, just that their relationships lacked passion or didn't exist. It's just an idea you might want to consider. Maybe the right person for you isn't a man...? Just a thought.

I think narcissists and psychopaths are the ones who can't see the good in people. They cannot love even those who are closest to them and even hurt them the hardest.
So, I think once you identified someone like that, you'll find them, unlovable.
Unfortunately, they have superficial charm and attracts people.

OP, as Absent said, I didn't mean that older men have lower standards. When I said older, I didn't mean older than you btw, meant copmared with young guys who you dated and mentioned that they made those shallow comments. I mean men of 50 and older (if they aer good, mentally healthy men) tend to see a whole picture and care about a personaity a lor more than many young guys. That's not lowering standards, finding a soulmate or someone who shares values is HIGHER standards than going just by the size/shape.
Of course they would still haev preferences on body shapes, but broadly anyone who likes pear-shape / bigger hips would never have a problem with you shape.
I just meant you being 50 and the fact you ve blossomed recently as your friend said, and are an interesting persaon with a career and own style, gives you more chances than when you and your dates weere immature.

ArthurDentsSpaceTowel That's a really insightful post!

I know I would definitely have a problem with recognising and receiving love. That was definitely even more of a problem too when I was younger. My nickname years ago was Spock because of my Vulcan like emotional control. And the black hole of neediness - I recognise that. It's partly that I don't think it would be fair for anyone to see it but partly because I'm scared. I'm scared that they might realise I do want/need to be loved. I'm scared that their reaction will be a rejection.

I used to have a friend who used to joke that I hadn't had the 'emotion chip' installed or that it was incompatible with my OS or that it needed updating. It was all good natured but also reflected a truth. But I didn't need emotions because no one was ever going to love me anyway and so the only emotions left after that made it hurt. I'm sitting in tears now typing this with a huge heavy pain. It just makes me sad.

On the plus side, it does mean that I've been able to walk away from relationships relatively unscathed. And I've never had my heart broken. Not by a man anyway.

As for your other point. I have wondered it myself on occasion but I'm fairly confident that's not the issue.

I will admit that I have spent a lot of time in relationships trying to work out if they like me enough or in the right way because I'm not very good at reading it and I have been aware for a while that I probably wouldn't recognise love anyway. But some of the things I've had said to me etc aren't ever going to come from someone who loves you. Those are the points when I've walked away.

CatAndHisKit Ah, I see. Well, in my recent experience, it hasn't really made any difference how old they are. The other side of it is that people become more discerning as they get older and are less willing to 'accept' things that they might have accepted in their youth and are happier to hold out and wait for what they actually want rather than compromising.

I think the issue is that I'm not really 'pear shaped'; I don't really have 'bigger hips'. I'm more hourglass in that my hips and shoulders are the same width. I've got a defined waist. It's my bum. That's why I think that men are put off when they see me naked because it's not really obvious when I'm dressed.

OP, I've been following your thread and not posted because I can't seem to form my thoughts into anything coherent/helpful. But I just wanted to say that I'm lurking sympathetically, and that I'm so sorry for the horrific time you had of it with your mother.

You sound really great. Also (and I know this will be like water off a duck's back, but maybe it's important to hear it anyway): your bum is fine. It's just a bum. It's just the way it is. It's not a moral flaw or personal failing that it happens to have a certain shape. I know it would be reassuring to be able to identify a scapegoat, but it's nonsense. Your mum is not the ultimate authority in bums. She got it wrong. I don't even think there's such a thing as an unloveable bum, let alone a whole person.

I've often wondered if I'm on the autistic spectrum - and I wondered that about you too op from your last post. But ime survivors of childhood emotional abuse (toxic family) can often show characteristics that look like autism, or at least an inability to read basic social cues - also, perhaps, to automatically view things in a rather black and white way before rationale kicks in. Ime my automatic responses are the result of an inwardly chaotic, frightening and abusive (vicious!) home life when I was a child. I was constantly trying to steady my internal boat, blocking off reasoning through large swathes of what went on because it didn't make any sense and was desperately confusing and deeply shocking, therefore painful. Like you op, my family slashed me to death with words.

Have you heard of ACA? Do give it a go. Ime it was a huge relief to meet others in a similar position.

I have a ridiculously big bum. Seriously. On a Size 8 body (currently). Its massive. Always has been, even when I was a child. On a bell curve, it would honestly be like 95th centile for the rest of my body. Its wide, sticks out and is long...just all round BIG. But what can you do. You just have to work with it. I have a question...when men have commented negatively to you about it...what happened next? I assume you didnt see them again? Maybe it's the type you go for as I have never had a negative comment from a man to my face about it. It just seems odd they would be negative about it to you when you're naked?

This ❤️

Hope no one minds me resurrecting this thread.

I didn't reply again because things took off at work and I spent a lot of time reading and rereading it and thinking about the things that people had said.

I've had an ok couple of months but, this morning, it really started bothering me again.

I'm not sure there's anything else to be said, tbh, but I needed to tell someone/put it down somewhere.

@gypsywater no, when anyone has commented negatively on it, or any other aspect of my appearance, negatively, I haven't seen them again.

Other than the group of 'friends' in the pub that time and men I've dated, no one has really commented negatively to my face.

It's more the lack of interest I get or the waning interest when i have started dating someone that is the issue. I know dating is hard but I dont know anyone else of my age who has never had a good relationship or never had a relationship that didnt last longer than a few short months.

I know that people can go off people for all sorts of reasons but I have had men say things to me that mean i know that (or just my general lack of attractiveness) is the specific reason - there is no doubt.

And even when comments haven't been made explicitly, passing references to (aspects of) other women they think are attractive leave me in no doubt.

I don't feel like I'm asking for more than anyone else is. I don't have unrealistic expectations of men - I'm not bothered about superficial things like height, income, material wealth. I dont expect a man to always pay. The things that men generally complain about re dating aren't things I focus on. I don't have a specific 'type' but i do get a very strong sense of men not being flattered if I'm interested. More that they are a bit ashamed/embarrassed (not sure really) that I might be the 'best they can do'.

I think it's been heightened again by the fact that my birthday is now imminent and it's just a reminder that other year has passed and nothing has changed.

I just don't know what else I can do. I know people suggest therapy but I've had loads. I feel ok about myself. I think I'm ok. It's just that other people don't seem to see it too. And even the physical aspects don't often concern me when I'm single.

Just feeling really down about it today.

Other than the group of 'friends' in the pub that time and men I've dated, no one has really commented negatively to my face.

Directly, I mean. But other comments such as "why don't you wear jeans? Is it because they dont fit you properly/look good in them?" type questions when - does it really matter whether I wear jeans or not? And yes it's clearly quite obvious why.

That sort of thing.

Neverbeenloved ypu sound like the sort of person we'd all want as a friend. You also sound beautiful not just on the inside but on the outside too.

I'm a personal trainer and have so many women ask me how they can increase the size of their bottom at the moment. Please don't think your bottom is what is putting men off, it really isn't.

You are not ugly or unloveable but I think you probably come across as so confident and together, something you've put together to stop yourself being hurt again, that you maybe come across as not needing anyone and then your discomfort at your physical appearance probably really throws men off.

Please believe there is someone out there for you, someone who would love to have someone like you but probably needs you to lean on them a little. Men are sad little creatures who need to be needed. My sister in law is a lot like you, she's nearly 50 and single but she comes across as just not needing anyone, although she'd dearly love a relationship.

You do sound lovely, your personality, dress sense, body, everything about you sounds absolutely amazing and you're a lovely person to boot. Just let down those guards. X

I don't know how to lean on anyone! I don't feel I need to - I'm capable of doing all the things I need to do that wouldnt require a professional and I don't like learning on people emotionally because I feel guilty taking up their time/headspace.

So I don't really know how to need someone or what I'd need them for.

But i have been told that about men before tbh. That sometimes they don't know what their role is supposed to be with me because I'm not a 'girly girl' who needs someone (their words not mine).

The other thing is that I never run myself down either. I never 'fish for compliments' and I never lament any aspect of myself. I learnt not to do that many years ago when a friend did and rather than seeing the overall attractive person they were, I could see all of their individual flaws as they saw them. So I don't do it. And i fake enough confidence to get by - not OTT but I don't insist on sex with the lights off and I'll confidently be seen naked even though I'm dying inside. I'd never give anyone the power over me of knowing what my weaknesses are.

Sometimes people need you to trust them and open up to them. It's part of a relationship not something you should ever feel guilty about. It's usually mutual and can be very comforting for both parties.

As for the stuff about men feeling needed, it's just the way they're made, they like feeling like you need them.

You sounds like a brilliant lovable person! You really do! I liked the physical description of you too. I hope you will find love. Have you loved somebody?

im sorry for posting, but how do i post a thread? i cant see the option

Bloomburger I've opened up to friends about things but i didn't have a very happy upbringing and so I find it hard to talk about myself generally because the impact of that has had the biggest influence on who I am and none of it is good. I don't know where to start because it's al linked and, in order to understand one aspect, you'd need to understand another. And it just feels like too much to even address. So I tend to avoid talking about 'me'. I have been told before that I keep people at a distance and I don't mean to but I don't know how to let them in because it's like a snake pit behind the closed door. I know it's cost me friendships because people don't feel close to me and so stop making the effort because they assume I have 'real friends' elsewhere.

Doesn't help that I confided something in two fairly longstanding male friends recently - different things over the course of a weekend and on separate occasions - and made them both cry. That's hard to deal with.

As for the stuff about men feeling needed, it's just the way they're made, they like feeling like you need them

I always avoid being seen as 'weak' and needing anyone because then I feel vulnerable.

Viletta

Thanks. I don't know that I have ever loved anyone tbh. I've felt 'in love' a couple of times but i don't think I really was - my feelings for them switched off pretty quickly when they 'wronged' me and no one has ever broken my heart.

Well, that's not true. I suppose my parents did and I've never really recovered from it.

I suppose I feel like I've lived my whole life with a broken heart and there's never really been space for anyone else. But that's from my side. It's never really mattered because no one has ever loved me either.

I do understand how hard it is to explain yourself to people and open up. It's quite good to have a concise version that doesn't contain too much horrific detail to use at the beginning of friendships and relationships . A sort of abridged version so to speak.

That way you can give someone an idea without everything coming tumbling out.

I have one and the few times people get the whole story I worry they'll look at me differently knowing what I've been through. Do you feel like that?

Do you immediately cut people off when you get a negative reaction from them or they hurt you or can you forgive them? You have this huge issue with your bottom and if anything especially physical relationships are slightly off or a question is asks that could allude you your physical appearance it's only natural for you to think it must be about that. It's probably not though. It's just there front and centre in your head.

As for making those men cry, they obviously care about you and it's a normal reaction to hearing how hurt someone you care has been and still is.

Someone can heal your heart, I promise. You just have to let them in and let them care for you. You might find letting it all go and just relying on someone else to care for you and be there for you a heal a huge help.

The hurt never goes. You always feel unworthy, a little different, jealous of all these people who didn't have to put up with the nastiness you did, who had parents who nurtured them rather than tearing them down but you can be happy, you just have to almost compartmentalise those feelings and have someone you let them out to reassure you.

It's shit and complicated but you do not by a long shot sound like someone who cannot be loved at all.

Thank you for such a thoughtful response.

I have one and the few times people get the whole story I worry they'll look at me differently knowing what I've been through. Do you feel like that?

Yes. And in some cases they have. One of the men I spoke to told me a couple of years ago that he'd always be there for me if I needed him and, although, we don't see each other often, he has been true to his word on that. But after I told him, he said that I made so much more sense. He said that there are things about me he's always just accepted but never really understood (and never asked about) but that now made complete sense. So I know people do see me differently when they know things.

Can I forgive them? Unless I know I'll never get past what they've said, I tend to follow a '3 strikes and your out' 'policy'. Other than the one man I mentioned previously, not one has ever commented positively on my body or complimented me in that respect - and theres no reason why they would have! So I'm not going to tolerate men criticising me. The most positive experience I've had was a man who never said anything. He never criticised me but never once complimented me either.

You just have to let them in and let them care for you. You might find letting it all go and just relying on someone else to care for you and be there for you a heal a huge help

You make it sound so simple sigh I know you're not being flippant because it should be easy. It's not really an option because there is no one who wants to be close and no one has ever really shown any desire to care for me. Which is why I keep getting stuck at this point. I can resolve to let someone in all i like but if there's no one knocking at the door...

It's really hard to let someone in when you've been so self reliant. It maybe is this air of self reliance that put people off connecting with you. But there is someone out there for you. I'm not being flippant when I try to reassure you and say let those guards down. I know how very hard it is.

You seem lovely OP. From what you've said about your proportions you don't sound like the actual physical shape of you is as bad as you think on your head. If you're a 10/12 unless you have a size 2 waist your bottom won't be hugely out of proportion.

Someone called me big nose in a maths class in 6th form once and my nose was something my parents picked on me about. Lo and behold 30 years later I'm still bothered about it. No one else is though. I don't have a huge nose, I have an upturned tip and it's slightly wide but it goes with my wide mouth and big eyes. (Not painting a great picture here!) but that one comment on top of the abuse from my parents crystallised the issue in my brain and it's hard to not look down in photos so it's less apparent but it's not necessary.

@NeverBeenLoved I think love is born out of letting people closer and part of it exploring other people more closely. What I mean is I don't think at all that you are unlovable I think maybe you are not letting people close enough to develop these feelings. I don't think someone just loves another without that other reciprocating it. People can like you without you making an effort but I think love requires work from both ends. Normally it happens naturally as interest grows and people get to know each other more intimately (both friendship or partnership), then mutual help and time together solidifies the feeling. I think you've got all the qualities to be loved, but maybe you need to explore first how to love back to find love?

Thank you.

Bloomburger from the front, I look ok. I look like I have a 'nice' hourglass figure. I've got a 'bit of a tummy' that's all but nothing major. And I'm lucky that I put weight on proportionately. And I think I look 'ok' from the back - just 'curvy' but from the side - I'm not attractive.

Sorry to hear you had a similar experience.

I find it difficult to ignore because if it had just been comments from my mum and an odd comment from an idiot when I was younger, I don't think it would have quite the same impact it does now but, even when I'm feeling more confident, I can't help but remember it's been a number of people who've commented and even when nothing negative has been said, nothing positive has been said either.

I think I look ok clothed - I don't lack confidence when I go out out and I looked at myself last night when I was dressed to go out and thought I looked really nice in what I was wearing - it had a dress on. It wasnt tight but it certainly didn't 'hide' me and it was flattering to my shape generally. I thought i looked good and attractive. And i felt confident. It really isn't about how i see myself.

When I'm single, i generally feel really good about myself - i think I look as attractive as anyone else and deserve to meet someone/be happy. And, when I have met someone, I've started off feeling confident. It's only when I can sense the "oh..." moment in them or they comment that I lose it. Which is why I'm so quick to walk away because I know that as soon as I'm on my own again I'll feel ok again.

It's just that, at the moment, I'm really feeling that it's how it's always going to be because of the increasing lack of interest generally.

Viletta those are some really good points. And I think that, in the past, I probably haven't allowed people to get close. I do open up about things butinhave been told before that I keep.people at a distance - it really upset me when one friend told me that because she and I had known each other for years ad she was one of the few people who knew details about me. We didn't speak for a year because of it. She only told me quite recently that, despite knowing things about me, I was emotionally quite distant. That's the bit I find hard to do. I do find it hard to make myself vulnerable.

maybe you need to explore first how to love back to find love?

That's probably a really good point.

Absolutely.

I generally think they have some kind of mental health issues or personality disorders or are very damaged from their background or a traumatic childhood.

No matter the background, the outcome is the same though.

OP @NeverBeenLoved please don't think this about yourself. It's your parents who were unlovable, and they are very cruel people. Please don't feel so alone in this - bear in mind that many people who are actually married have never been loved, or their 'love' evaporates once the mundane sets in. People can get married for security (yes, as well as love), and they will spend the rest of their lives hiding that. You only need to look at the amount of comments about husbands having affairs on here to realise there are a lot of unloved women out there!

Please don't be too harsh on yourself, and . This sounds like it's nothing at all to do with you, simply the cruelty of your parents.