Divorcing sulking H - will it happen in 2020?

[jamaisjedors]

So this is my FIFTH thread, and no, I'm still not divorced and probably won't be in 2020 as my exH is refusing to sign the initial papers and so this could drag on until 2021 (2 years after our separation) when I can divorce him without his consent.

First thread from December 2019 after my H ruined my birthday weekend (and 1st anniversay of my dad's death) by giving me the silent treatment all weekend to "punish me" for not being grateful enough for him coming away and buying me a present and a card.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3448545-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking?msgid=84022238

Thanks to some amazing posters I realised that H's behaviour (which was not at all a one-off) was abusive and unacceptable.

I prepared to leave him and got plans in place but got "hoovered" back in by H with promises of joint counselling, individual counselling for him, and regular "date nights". Unfortunately none of that changed the dynamic in our relationship : 2nd thread :

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3498886-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking-part2?msgid=85957683

I started a 3rd thread in May when H and I had decided to separate :

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3580872-LEAVING-sulking-H?msgid=88239005

and that's when things got nightmarish.

As everyone on here pointed out, the most dangerous time for women is when they decide to leave an abusive partner.

In a nutshell, H went missing, had an acute psychotic episode, was admitted to a psychiatric facility and is still in there now.

Staff at the hospital warned me H could be dangerous for me and advised me to move out asap which I did, in fear for my life.

Fourth thread :
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/a3637219-DIVORCING-sulking-H?msgid=92845754#92845754

saw me going to court to safeguard the DC through a request for full custody with limited visiting rights.

With the help of my great lawyer we got the decision we wanted from the judge but the battle never ends over every little thing - schools, activities, money...

Now I am at the stage of entering financial negotiations with exH through lawyers and solicitors plus he has appealed the judge's initial decision so we have to go back to court in mid-February.

Fun start to the New Year which is why, a whole year on, I still need the support and advice of all of those who've been through similar situations or who are just naturally wise !

I have also come a very long way this year.

Leaving a controlling and emotionally/verbally abusive relationship was the hardest thing I've ever done.

Actually NO, the hardest thing I ever did was STAY in that relationship so long in a bid to keep our family together and make it work.

I'd love to think that by sharing this journey on here it might help others who are doubting their strength and capacity to leave - my life is a million times better now although I still have a lot of healing to do.

are your DSs aware of the fact exH is the cause of so much uncertainty?

i don't mean have you told them, because from your threads it seems (rightly) that you have tried to avoid moaning about exH.

but given their ages, it must be apparent to them to some degree?

appreciate if they've grown up in an environment where dad doesn't really let them have a voice, it may be difficult for them to articulate their frustrations out loud.

thinking about my DC - we've always encouraged them to voice their frustrations (which haven't always been easy to hear) - in this situation, there's no way the oldest 2 wouldn't have said something to me or DW (depending on who was the cause of the uncertainty).

or probably both!

As you know it is about control. Regardless of mental health issues. Although it seems that the less control he has the worse this is. Or seems anyway.

It is hard to change your mindset (I know). The more you push him out your head, the more you make decisions without factoring him in (even unconsciously) the easier it gets. Make some plans of your own. If you suspect he will try and mess it up then arrange something else for the DC. Don't always be around, or have the car around. Encourage the DCc to try and field his questioning which is better for them. Not to wind him up but to help yoou break the appease dynamic.

And try and file away what others are saying about him however well intentioned, and not let it influence your decisions.

@DiscontinuedModelHusband about whether the DC are aware or not of ExH being vague about plans.

They certainly were at New Year but the psychologist kind of made it clear to me that I had to be the "better person" for the DC's sake and bring it up/ask for commitment from exH.

In general they don't seem that bothered by it, I guess because they do lots of things with me so if for example it turns out that they are not going away with their dad at all, they will still have had a holiday with me.

It does have consequences though, for example I talked to the DC about custody arrangements going forward (if Dad is better) and talked about EOW and once a week on a Wednesday.

DS1 said he wouldn't want to go EVERY Wednesday because he always has to wait around for his dad who won't pick him up from school directly and won't pick up the DC at different times (they tend to finish school at different times but it's only a 10-minute drive from their school to exH's house so do-able).

I do suspect though that to a certain extent the boys (and I) have been "trained" to accept "waiting" for EX to make a decision.

I'm trying to encourage them to make their own plans if their dad hasn't announced any, so for example DS is going to a party on Saturday night and had to wait a while for exH to say "yes" as he wasn't sure of his plans.

I encourage (and will encourage) the DS to push their dad for commitment and I think it will be a useful skill in the future.

I'm pretty careful to never "bad mouth" exH but will occasionally make it clear that we can't do certain things because we're waiting on a reply from him for example.

Often they ask me to intervene directly.

@MsPavlichenko I am taking the advice about control on board. Certainly if this situation continues much longer I will make changes to avoid having to hear about exH and his state of mind etc.

I'm getting better about finding strategies to NOT be dependant on his decisions - for example for this summer it genuinely doesn't bother me now that there is no decision on his holiday with the DC.

Also for example when I knew I was going to be 5 minutes late, I didn't text the DC while they were in the car with their dad, so that they wouldn't tell him.

OTOH that meant they got home to an empty house and they didn't immediately see my text (sent as they walked in the door - I have cameras) and so were a little worried.

Do the courts let the DC have a say?

Could DS say he doesn't want to go to Dads on a Wednesday and then ask to go when it suits him IF ex will pick him up? Or will it be better/easier for it to be court ordered and DS just cancel as and when suits him?

Being honest about Ex's need to be in control and sense of entitlement isn't bad mouthing him. They need to be able to label Ex behaviour and know they have the right to not pander to him.

They need a lot of untraining and also to have it crystal clear so they don't fall into the role you played in their future relationships.

I would ask the boys about August and what they want and then if they want to know what is going on then ask Ex via his solicitor and include how this attitude of refusing to commit is harmful to the boys.

If he doesn't take them away I would be very minded to have someone come stay overnight and babysit so Ex can see he hasn't got control over you anymore.

You need some respite and to go off and do stuff so crack on.

Could you say something like ‘we need to know your decision by x time, if we don’t hear from you by then, we will assume the answer is no/yes and will act accordingly’. ?

It tells a story in itself, that a 16 year old won't/can't ask his father if Yes or No, they are going on holiday, & say He'd like to know, so as he can make plans with his friends/decide how he wants to spend his holiday.
He is using this non decision to keep everyone dangling, including his sons

I’ve been lurking with you for some time willing you on but with nothing more sensible to say than the great advice and support you’ve been getting. This just sprang to mind though from my own experience.

Certainly if this situation continues much longer I will make changes to avoid having to hear about exH and his state of mind etc.

Just be aware that when you hear about Ex, he may hear about you.

He is keeping everyone dangling, just as he always did. As the boys get older, they probably will have less patience with him doing that, hopefully, because they will want more control over their own lives.

This is why I think find out what the boys want for the August holiday and then sort out with SIL and give him a very tight deadline to tell the DS either way what is happening.

I agree with this.

God I went through all this 30 years ago, I am reluctant to use the word "triggered" because it's no really my age group (50/60) but I am most definitely triggered reading through all of this.
Remembering the nightmare of it. I ended up with full custody and half the house and my divorce 5 YEARS after this all started.
And then having got my divorce the catholic church decided to stick their oar in and started writing to me and bothering me about an anullment on his behalf so he could get married again. Seems it's fine with them to hit your wife and kids and put them through hell but divorce is not allowed. I didn't let him have one after he had refused to divorce me for 5 years and said it had been a bona fide marriage marred by his emotional and physical violence towards us and I was not going to agree to an anullment and make my son illegitimate for his convenince (although I don't have anything against that). He has never remarried.
I told them all to go to hell and threatened to take out an injunction against them if they didn't leave me alone.
God the endless returns to court, the injunctions, having to give up work for the duration to get legal aid.
Maintenance went out of the window because as soon as I got the divorce and full custody with no visitation rights for him he skipped the country so I had to get a full time nursing job to keep us going and pay the mortgage and bills.
My son is still angry about the divorce all these years later because my ex scapegoated him and told him he was to blame for it.
So yes it never really leaves you. I have a normal life now but occasionally it comes back to bite you on the arse.

@madcatladyforever so sorry - I can't believe how common it is for divorces or separations to take forever with abusive men.

Re: holidays, I emailed exH and told him I would be at X place til X date and reminded him that we had agreed to handover kids at a convenient place to avoid a long journey for them.

He has actually replied to say he will be with his brother (I want it in writing that he's actually staying WITH him) and he has suggested a convenient place to drop off which is on my way back and he is prepared to be flexible about the day.

He hasn't however confirmed the exact dates he will be away with the DC for but I will ask him for those and if I can't get them I will ask my BIL/SIL.

This means I will actually have some whole days and nights to myself in August. I have nothing planned, and a lot of people will be away, but I'm pretty sure I can come up with some ideas and NOT being on a schedule of having to be back by 9PM or being able to go for a drink or a walk along the beach in the evening will be great !

@Homebird8 Just be aware that when you hear about Ex, he may hear about you.

I am kind of hyper aware of this. I hear plenty from the kids about what they have done all day and what their dad did, so I assume they tell him the same.

For example this morning my car was gone when he picked them up, they will have told him I was at yoga. (not a problem).

But I know if he calls at anytime and I'm out with friends etc. he will know about it and of course mutual friends will report back too - plus we work in the same institution.

This is probably what is stressing me out about the psychological assessment, exH knows everything about what the kids do and what I do.

OTOH there is nothing to report, but I am on my best behaviour all the time.

One good thing (not necessarily for the DC) is that the nightly phone calls that ExH made for several months last year have totally dropped off.

I occasionally check the DC's phones and he has barely called them outside official visiting times and texts to say he has arrived to pick them up.

So at least he's not getting a blow by blow account of their day every day anymore !!!

I am curious about the level of input "Sam" has. Seems a bit over the top tbh. Do they have an agenda? Are you being played and is it a good idea to be sharing with someone who could very easily be "on the other side" as it were.

"I am curious about the level of input "Sam" has. Seems a bit over the top tbh. Do they have an agenda? Are you being played and is it a good idea to be sharing with someone who could very easily be "on the other side" as it were."

I must admit I feel a bit sorry for Sam. I feel he's trying to be a good friend to you both, but is caught between a rock and a hard place.

Nearly 2 weeks on has there been progress with the August holiday dates?

I must admit I feel a bit sorry for Sam. I feel he's trying to be a good friend to you both, but is caught between a rock and a hard place.

I think this is true. He is mostly desparing of exH at the moment.

He is the sort of person who gets pretty (over)-involved when people have problems - he is also the sort of person who will do anything to help people.

Anyway, I just wanted to check in and say hi before I go off on my holidays for a couple of weeks with the DC.

ExH never got back to my lawyer about any kind of discussion about his health, so I guess we are all set for another year of court etc. I have paid the first installment for the psychological assessment (shared between us) and so will wait to hear back about when that is happening.

I have to say I am now leaning towards NOT wanting to know anything from friends about exH's health etc.

I know this was advice from lots of very wise posters on here previously.

A few days ago I met up with mutual friends for a walk and I knew at some point the subject of exH would come up, which actually made me on edge leading up to seeing them.

Seeing as we are going down the route of an official report etc., there is no real need for me to hear about how exH is doing now so I think I will just update people who ask about how the procedure is going, but ask them not to talk to me about exH anymore.

The mutual friends said that exH was so sad and down that they didn't even want to contact him anymore (don't know what to say) and I found myself feeling really bad for exH.

Then he ignored one of my messages about the DC totally so I've snapped right out of that one, but still, I don't need to be crying over how badly things have turned out and how low he is, I need to get him out of my mind now.

Going to focus on the kids and myself for 2 weeks - and am SO SO looking forward to heading off on holiday in a good mood... and NOT A SULK !!!!

@RandomMess oh cross-posted (didn't see your post when I posted !) - great minds !

All agreed for August dates, exh has confirmed he is spending a week with his brother and family, I will drop off on my way home from our holiday on the date which suits me.

We have also agreed on the date I get the kids back again in August.

The only thing left uncertain is whether the DC will be coming home every night during their 2nd week with their dad - I have asked him to confirm that but he has ignored me.

I suspect he might (at the last minute) decide to go and see his family in that week, which would leave me at home with no plans (but I can make some !). Not going to get stressed about it now, I have said I'm expecting them at 9pm on the night his holiday with his brother ends.

Yeah he's not so low etc that he can't make a concerted effort to dick you around...

He is so controlling he knows exactly what he is doing including try to manipulate friends to being on his side!

@jamaisjedors

I really admire your strength, tenacity and PATIENCE through all this unnecessary palaver. I hope you and your DC have a great, relaxing vacation and you - and they - are able to tune him out until you come back refreshed and ready for the next irritating episode. 🌞

Or - who knows he may actually see the light (??) and become a more balanced, functional human being and Co-parent. Live in hope maybe?? 😁

He is a master manipulator - of you, your DSs, his siblings and his friend. It’s the same behaviours that you are divorcing for and yet it goes on.

Take his power away. Make your plans first and keep going. Teach your boys not to be dangling on a string for anyone in life.

Cut back from Sam and ILs they are all unwittingly part of the dance/web of his manipulations to control you.

Drop the rope.

Your boys are well old enough to be taught boundaries and that they should always expect to be respectfully treated and what covert control, silent, under the radar, obtuse, difficult behaviour looks like and that they should not accept, adapt or entertain it from anyone in life.....and you need to keep token modeling that for them and be overt about it politely and firmly - that’s not bad mouthing their father.

He may be feeling "so sad" but so were you for year's.... and he had the power to change and make you both happy. But he chose not too.

This is the path he chose and your friends need to remember that

He won't be taking any responsibility for his actions.

have a fab holiday jamais !

Great news about the holiday- one you can actually enjoy!

Have a lovely holiday

Clever enough to dick you around - too stupid to realise that this manipulation will be reflected in his psychological report