Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

It is absolutely not all in your head. His behaviour is very worrying and not normal.

Thanks Bean, Gutterton and SirVix for reassuring me that I have not entirely lost the plot.

So far as I can make out, they don't socialise with anyone other than LB's parents. She has dropped all of her old friends and hasn't made any new ones. I agree that it would have a positive effect for her to go on the course. I will not mention it unless she does - any suggestion that she might postpone would, in any event, be construed by LB as us trying to avoid paying and would buy into his narrative that we are rubbish DP who always let them down.

DD has at least now asked us for proposed dates when we want to visit, but I feel a bit sick about it all and am quite anxious at going. I will do though, not least because DH is keen to go and see DD and the DGDs. I am just worried that I will become attached to them and that LB will use it against us.

Thanks for your support.

Yes he will continue to do everything he can to punish you - no doubt dates will be agreed, then be changed, then cut short. The visit will probably be shocking - he might let you see them and then withdraw them somehow. You just need to be ready for that controlling walking on eggshells experience and know that’s how your DD lives her life.

Are you paying for both DGD to be in nursery full time whilst DD does the course and he doesn’t work?

I think that if DGD are in nursery then that will be good for them - but I can’t see how paranoid LB will tolerate that for more than a week.....he will disrupt it and withdraw them just like he did with the hospital.

If they have no social network then I would be pointing out to DD subtly that the DGDs need friends and social interaction for their development. That might get her thinking.

No doubt he is also an anti vaxer and their physical health will also be at risk.

Women in these RS can tolerate an awful lot themselves so often it is like flogging a dead horse to draw attention to the behaviour of their DH.

But there is always a chink of light and hope once they realise that the DCs will suffer.

Thanks for the further advice Gutterton. You have already been proved right to the extent that it is now being suggested that the visit should be postponed until the weather is warmer, so we can go on 'day trips', and when the baby is older so can appreciate it more! I suspect that, as you say, even if the visit is a 'success', it will be uncomfortable.

We haven't yet had a discussion about the logistics of the course, but I agree that the DGDs need to socialise.

I hope you are right about the chink of light!

It will be good if you can get ahead of his thinking just so that he can’t yank your chain so painfully.

Don’t chase it.

Your poor DD - tho she must be devastated. But it’s important that you hold back so that she can see it is HIM hurting HER and the DGDs.

He is v manipulative and wants you to walk blindly into the conflict. Don’t fall for it.

Just wanted to encourage you OP - you're obviously a very thoughtful, considerate mother and I'm glad you're getting good advice from PPs.

You mentioned back along that LB does extensive DIY projects and you assume they're done well. With his seemingly poor work ethic I wouldn't be at all surprised if the DIY projects were unfinished in his own home at least (and perhaps even left dangerous to small children). You mentioned also that they live frugally and you have a lovely home. I suspect that you'd be shocked to see the house and that may be partly behind the day trip suggestion as they don't want you to see the conditions in which they're living.

Is there any way that your daughter could come home for a while and be looked after with the DGDs - perhaps she could catch a train and you meet her at the first station she needs to change at? I think it's very unlikely to actually happen tbh but don't see harm in suggesting it. Gently sowing seeds to help her wake up to how extreme her situation is.

Sending lots of love to you all at this difficult time.

In your place I think I might just turn up on the doorstep, invent some reason you had to be in the area.

The fact she only sees him and his parents is a massive red flag. Have you raised concerns with the midwife ? She can’t talk to you about your dd, obvs, but she can listen to your concerns in confidence.
I wonder whether your dd is so scared of Lobster Boy that she can’t even tell you. She must surely realise that this is not normal, as she grew up with you and your family.
Apols if you have said, but is LB an only child ?

Gutterton, you are so right about how he operates. They are now messing us around about the dates and saying that we are basically allowed to visit for a few hours on one day and go out somewhere on another day and they will 'think of a few options and let you know nearer the time' (unspecified).

I feel so upset, I can't stop crying. I haven't met either of my granddaughters and the eldest is now 20 months old. There is nothing in the message, which I think he must have drafted, to say that we would love to see you and we can't wait for you to meet your DGDs. It's a case of we will tolerate you and you may travel hundreds of miles and see them under pre-planned supervised conditions, as though we were abusive monsters or something. I just want to do what normal GPs do, see the DGDs and love them and develop a relationship with them. This is ripping my heart out to the extent that I am thinking maybe I should not go at all.

Gutterton, you are right, it will be awful, and once they have drawn us in and are dancing to their tune, they will want more money, I just know it, and it makes me feel sick. This whole situation is corroding everything. I know that he is trying to provoke me by this and if I react, I will be seen as the unreasonable one. He is trying to create a conflict. I am taking deep breaths and leaving it to DH, who is much more measured than I am, and who has sent a brief message saying that we don't want to go on trips, we just want to see them.

Rachel, you are actually spot on in saying that projects are left unfinished. He was redoing the kitchen shortly before the baby was due but I don't think it is finished. The buy to let property which they wanted the 'loan' for is not finished either, although they said it only needed cosmetic improvement and they would be doing it up quickly to rent out. The house which they bought initially (the transaction which I pulled out of) took two and a half years to renovate, although he didn't do that much to it, during which time neither of them were working and were claiming benefits.

SirVix, LB has a sister who is a teacher. I haven't spoken to the midwife, as I don't see what they can do if DD says she is fine, which she will. I don't know that DD is scared of LB, but she is wary of displeasing him, I think. She regards everything he says as right and if anyone disagrees with him, they are wrong. Also, she must be feeling vulnerable at the moment, after such a difficult birth only a couple weeks ago. She doesn't need any more stress in her life and, if I react negatively in any way, he will be quick to jump in to 'protect' her. I think turning up on the doorstep would be disastrous, as he would take great pleasure in sending us away.

Rachel, if I suggested DD and DGDs coming to stay, LB would see that as an attack on him and there would be repercussions.

Albinoni, I have just read this thread for the first time and I am so so sorry for what you are going through.

My mother is undiagnosed but fits the definition of covert narcissist and after a lifetime of hurt, I am all but estranged from her. The damage she causes has reverberated through the generations, affecting my siblings and their children. We are a fractured family and all our relationships are dysfunctional to say the least.

For this reason, I would be amazed if there wasn't a similar dynamic going on in LB's family and although you are already cautious about how you will interact with his parents if you do meet them, please remember that families like this are very very good at putting on a show of perfection for outsiders. It's part of the dysfunction.

I would also agree that the reason why LB is messing you about with dates is twofold. He has something he knows you want - contact with your DD and DGD - so he is using that to make you pay. It's part of those amends he thinks you should make. The other reason is that he is testing your boundaries to see how much you will put up with before you resist (when he will again think he has the upper hand because he can point to that as proof of your unreasonableness).

I'm with Gutterton on this. Your DD will realise one day that spending her whole life being responsible for regulating his moods is just not normal and will be ready to wake up. That day is likely to be related to how he treats the children. They will be conditioned to manage his moods too but your DD's instinct as a mother to protect them from emotional abuse will finally be the point at which she finds the strength to stand up to him.

Till then, you can only do what you are doing now: keep the lines of communication open, be patient, wait. It's just so hard for you.

Don’t rise to it - you or your DH.

He just wants you to step into the firing line so that he can destroy you.

You will then be the distraction.

Be vanilla, carefree - don’t let him yank your chain.

Save your love for later.

OMG I remember Lobster Boy!
I am so sorry that your daughter married and had children with this man. I would be devastated that there was now a permanent tie.

You've been had.
Don't think about the:- You're forbidden from speaking to them about their bad actions, how they treated you and as a human how you feel. They are controlling you. And proving that they are the dominant ones.

You're not nesting DGC:- again it's a power play. You're not worthy. And only they will ever hold all the strings.

Try not to get attached. You probably won't be around the kids a lot. Try and view them as a friends children. Nice to know they're OK but no major impact on your life.

You should never have given that money.

Are you forbidden from discussing a payment plan?

No matter how hard it is I do think that you need to step right back so that your DD reaches her rock bottom with him and sees him for what he is and his negative impact on her DDs if she is unable to see it on herself.

Brace yourself and pace yourself for a v long journey.

The more you provide a safety net or become involved the longer this journey will take - and the messier it will get. You will get blamed for everything - and you will lose everything (contact with DD, DGDs, money).

If you open yourself up to loving the DGDs right now you are putting yourself at risk of deep emotional hurt as he will manipulate this situation. You will also put yourself at risk of “over reacting” in your distress - once he deploys his nasty tactics. You will end up saying or doing something that plays straight into his hands.

Your DD and DGD will also get v hurt when he discards you.

So put your oxygen mask and protective suit on to weather this one - play the long game - be clear where the goal is and don’t get distracted by his tactics.

He will eventually implode - wait for that but make sure that he doesn’t destroy you or your relationship with your DD beforehand - because she will need somewhere to come to.

Grey rock.
Vanilla.
Indifference and acceptance to all any of his crazy antics - they are only there to play/trap you - he will keep escalating his tactics to goad you - this is what you want as you want your DD to see his behaviour as extreme and yours as neutral.

Open channels of communication with DD.

Compartmentalise your life. So that you are not worried or preoccupied with his nonsense (as that is deliberate to confuse you and drive you mad) 24/7.
Fill your life up with the joy of your other daughters and DH so that those rich lives don’t pass you whilst you wait for this ship to finally come it. Which it will.

Step out of his shit storm - so that he is the only one covered in it.

Honestly. I would reply to your Dd saying how deeply hurt and disgusted you are by their treatment of you. That you are not going to be tolerated in such a way. There are consequences to how you treat somebody.

Has DD1 made any contact with her sisters?

Yes, I am sorry OP, I can see he would react terribly to you turning up, I thought that might highlight to your dd just how abnormal the situation is, but agree the risk is too great. I just think in your place that is probably what I would want to do. A nightmare, the whole thing.
Re the widwife - The midwives/health visitors won’t just take things at face value, it really is worth flagging up, she won’t be told that you have called, so it won’t make things worse between you.

It sounds excessive, but I would think of hiring a private detective to watch them for a few days, just to know what their general movements are, whether your dd leaves the house much etc. You know so little of her situation, and she is being completely controlled by this man. It is a frightening situation.

I remember the original thread and I'm sorry your DD is still with the abusive arse clown.

This is what I would do.

I would agree to fund the flat rental (direct to the landlord) but that you cannot afford to subsidise childcare fees.

Your SIL does not work because he wants to directly blocks DD's access to people, who might make her realise that he is abusive.

He wants he to do the PGCE course so they can take the bursary and buy another rental property for his property empire. He does not want her to become a teacher.

I assume that she has to attend the PGCE in order to continue to receive the bursary?

If he gets childcare then he is free to turn up at lunchtimes/breaktimes etc which prevents her from forming relationships with people on her course.

The PGCE may be the last real chance she has of realising that he's abusive and wanting to leave.

She will not listen to you, so don't even bother to try.

As for the DGD's, you need to accept that you will likely never or very rarely see them. You need to prepare yourself for that and try to be as detached as possible over the meetings etc.

Assume they aren't going to happen. It's likely that they will move the goal posts again and again in order to dangle the carrot. Be nice and polite and accept these changes with good grace, to ensure that you are still in contact in September and able to pay the rental on the PGCE flat.

You won't meet his parents either, he'll make sure of it. They also consider him difficult - and probably feel much more than that.

Your DD has to come to realise this herself though, no amount of you telling her will make her listen.

I'm sorry, this is so difficult. I agree with your DD's that you need further counselling to come to terms with the reality of the situation.

Good luck xxxx

Thank you so much everybody for your advice and support. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. This thread is a real lifeline for me.

I will update on any developments but, in the meantime, I have much to think about, and especially making sure that I cherish the special moments with my DH and other DDs. DD2 and I are going to see Little Women this afternoon, which seems pertinent somehow.

There has been no contact between DD1 and her sisters.

That’s great - enjoy that. Do you tell DD1 what you do with your life and what is going on with family and friends.

I wonder if subtlety painting pictures of a full rich, light hearted loving fun life that is going on without her - it might trigger some yearning from her.

Maybe updates of what you have planned and then joyous photos of people she cares might stir her?

Maybe a photo of you all laughing with her grandmother - you with DD having a drink at the cinema etc - updates from her old friends ...

She needs to be reminded what she is missing.

At a puppy training course they taught us NOT to chase after a runaway puppy - but to turn your back and do loads of interesting things that they can see - then they come running back.

OP - I remember your initial LB posts and am so sorry to hear that your DD is still under his control.

I think Gutterton's advice to play the long game is the only way forward. At some point in the future, the scales will surely fall from her eyes. I imagine that LB will also want to control the children and hopefully it is through them that your DD will see how unnatural the situation is.

Until then....accept the current crumbs of contact that are offered as peacefully as possible and keep lines of communication to your DD open. Be nice, be neutral and try to stay emotionally detached. Do not react if they change the dates, times, etc. He will look for any way to make you look unreasonable so do not give him any ammunition.

As for money (and sadly it does sound like this is what the contact boils down to on LB's part anyway) , if you have already agreed to fund the rental so that your DD can do the course then you will have to go through with this so that LB does not use this as a reason for further estrangement. To be honest though, I think that they have an absolute cheek - £26,000 bursary is almost the average salary for someone in the UK and they should not be asking for handouts while they own property and one of them does not work. But if this is the only way to get her into the course then so be it.

In most circumstances I would not consider paying for childcare if the other parent was not working, but in this situation I think it would benefit the children and also your DD (if she has to do drop offs & pick ups at nursery then she will be in more contact with other people) so if finances allow then I would offer this too. However I would make it clear that your financial circumstances have changed and that you cannot fund for more than x time.

The only reason for paying for all the above is to widen your DD's social circle so that she realises her relationship is not normal....but LB is not daft and I'm sure he will realise that this (and obviously contact) is what you want. I expect that he will want her to accept the bursary & the money from you, and will then make it so difficult for her to continue the course that she has to drop out. How would you know if that happened? Could you make it gently clear that you will only fund the rental and childcare if she is still doing the course?

I cannot imagine how all of this affects your peace of mind. I wish you strength to deal with it all and hope that you can also focus on more straightforward and happy relationships with your other DDs.

Oh - I wrote all that before I saw your update. Hope you have a lovely time at the cinema with your other DDs. Absolutely tell DD1 what you are doing today! If you are in "bright & breezy" contact anyway then it would be completely normal to update her with what you are doing. And it will certainly make her think about why she isn't with you all.

Gutterton and Bluebell - Thank you so much for your replies. I was feeling quite confident this morning, helped by all of the wonderful support here, but feeling a bit wobbly this afternoon. I think I may have mishandled the situation. I am normally quite confident, but I feel all on edge where LB is concerned.

I said that we are coming on certain dates, a few weeks from now, but no need to cook, drive, entertain us, just a gentle walk round the village, chat on the sofa, no pressure or obligation to do anything at all, they can see us as much or as little of us as they want. I said that I was her mum, that like most grannies, I just wanted to jump on the first train to see my daughter and welcome the new arrival with spontaneity and joy, that it was sad that it all seemed a bit awkward, that I guessed that she might be feeling anxious about the trip, as I was, but love always etc.

Anyway, I haven't heard anything, but felt that I had to say how I feel without being confrontational. It is killing me to play this cat and mouse game. It's really messing with my head. I know - and I am so grateful for the advice - that I need to protect myself and eventually DD1 by playing a long game, but it is just so hard sometimes. I feel that I haven't properly heeded the advice to be grey rock and I know that I should have done, but I wasn't aggressive, just wanting to be open and try to sort things out.

I had a lovely time at the cinema with DD2 thanks Bluebell and, yes, Gutterton, I do share photos from time to time of the family. I also sent DD1 a lot of photos of herself after she told me about DGD1, as I think that it is important that she sees her history to share with her DDs. She did say that she remembered the times with DD2, whom she was so close to, playing on their toy horses etc, so maybe it has had some impact, even if they are not in contact. She told DH a while ago that she had seen family photos on Instagram and that it really hurt her to see them, so I would like to think that she still cares, but I don't want to hurt her.

Also, that we are staying in a hotel, will get taxis, so not imposing.

OP, you might think you hurt DD1 but I think she’s hurting as she sees people closely related to her and it reminds her of life when she used to be a part of it. I suppose nobody likes being left out of their family of origin but this is the choice she made.

I’d continue to share your family photos on IG, that might trigger DD1 to do/say or think about something.
Your life or anybody elses doesn’t stop because DD1 decided she didn’t want to be a part of it anymore.

Excellent advice from @Gutterton

I’m really sorry OP, LB is a real monster.

Wishing you strength, patience and anything it takes to end this situation 💐

You're doing brilliantly. I hope you have a lovely time on your trip.