Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

Like Gutterton I also do not appreciate at all ASD being banded around as a potential reason for people like lobsterboy behaving abusively. This shows me that many people still do not understand ASD at all. He is abusive towards your DD because he can and now there are sadly children in this toxic mix also.

I think this man is a highly skilled and abusive manipulator of your DD1 and in turn you people as her family of origin. He targeted her and deliberately because he saw something in her he can and has indeed exploited to his own ends. Is your DD1 the sort of person who wants to see the best in people regardless of the evidence in front of her eyes?. It is likely too that your DD1 went from one previous abusive and controlling relationship straight into another; that scenario happens commonly.

Cross posted. If DD and SIL think he is ASD - then this might be the hook to get him in front of a Dr - for diagnosis and support?

You might want to research the impact of ASD (and PD) on parenting behaviour, attunement and the short and long term impact on babies and children’s emotional development - so that your DD will be motivated to get him support so that her DDs aren’t emotionally injured and left with crippling anxieties and behaviour issues through childhood and MH issues in adulthood.

I’m so sorry your daughter has been taken in by this man, he’s sounds horrendous, I had an emergency cs at Christmas time and I would not have wanted to leave hospital early, it’s very detrimental to recovery. I would also raise concerns with the labour ward if you know which hospital she was in. Staff are trained to recognise signs of dv so it wouldn’t have gone unnoticed but no harm in flagging it up. Unfortunately over the Christmas period there will be a skeleton service for home visits (I remember my first few were delayed) but hopefully someone will be out to visit her soon if they haven’t already. They will also raise concerns about living conditions (you mention frugal lifestyle, I’m wondering if this is another reason she seems to want to meet away from the home, their house might not live up to normal standards). Hopefully mw or hv will pick up on the controlling situation, my dsis is a mw and it’s a major part of pregnancy and maternity care these days. He obviously uses coercive control as well as financial control to keep your dd in line.

I also don’t agree that women with difficult childhoods end up in these controlling relationships. I had a lovely childhood and my first bf at university was a controlling nightmare. It’s just bad luck, these men have incredibly low self esteem and self worth which they project onto the women unfortunate enough to get together with them. They act normally in the beginning but gradually become controlling over time. Everything is about how they feel, how your ‘behaviour’ is affecting them. It’s insidious.

My controlling bf isolated me from friends, we lived together, he changed courses so we were taking the same subjects, he went everywhere with me holding my hand, it’s was absolutely suffocating. Weirdly he also had a notebook, his ‘journal’. He wrote about my behaviour/emotions/lack of emotions in it and would then get me to read it out and defend myself to his judgement, was exhausting and dehumanising.

He never completely managed to isolate me from family as we were living in a different city luckily although he did accompany me every time I visited home even though I didn’t want him to. Think it was a combination of having a very close relationship with my siblings and parents and me not being that into him in the first place so his behaviour was off putting for me. If I had idolised him and thought I was in love perhaps it would have felt protective? Who knows, even though I thought he wasn’t for me from about 3 months in we ended up being together 18m as it took me so long to disentangle from him. It was incredibly difficult to get rid of him. He had affected my confidence, I had no friends or family nearby, he was everywhere I was, I just couldn’t see an escape from him. Luckily though I just knew he wasn’t the person for me and couldn’t continue. I split up with him at the end of a term when I knew I was heading home for a few weeks and he was staying as had got a pt job in the town. He thought I was planning to stay. He threatened suicide, I left anyway.

We were living together but with others in a student house (thank god), he was a nightmare when I returned, threatening suicide, following me around town, hurling abuse, trying to turn people against me. Stealing my keys when he followed me home one evening he ran ahead so he could get into my room first and refuse to leave. He also broke into my room at night and would rant at me about committing suicide and asking repeatedly why I didn’t care. Luckily I had flat mates to help, he had a mh breakdown and went home to family hundreds of miles away.

Sorry this is very long, just wanted to give an idea what it’s like being in this type of controlling relationship. I met his parents and family on lots of occasions but I don’t think they would have picked up on the controlling aspects as he was very subtle around others. Friends at uni had no idea either until I split with him and they witnessed the fall out, they had thought we were in love and wanted to spend all our time together. I think he was a narcissist with a personality disorder.

Don’t feel guilty about agreeing to give money and then pulling out of the agreement, you did the right thing. He didn’t like it as you showed him his behaviour has consequences and not everyone will dance to his tune. All controlling men like this endeavour to remove their partners from their families and friends, it’s how they gain complete control. Nothing you may or may not have done would have ever changed this fact, the responsibility for isolating your daughter from you rests with him solely, it was and is how he keeps control.

I agree with other posters you should give your dd love and support and ensure she knows you’ll always be there for her but be ambiguous about money. I also think she will struggle with a PGCE but if she did manage it it would open her eyes.

My ex bf also had a lot of financial help from his dm, her salary was paid directly into his account every month for him to squander on cds and drinking. It always amazed me how his family thought this was a good idea. I don’t know how it came about but I imagine there was some coercion on his part as he was unambitious and lazy and I imagine they were paying him to attend university. The fact his dps describe him as ‘difficult’ is telling, my ex’s dps thought the sun shone out of his a* just goes to show your dd has ended up with a man with very severe problems if his dps acknowledge it.

Please listen to your dh and dds and try to put up some boundaries, it sounds like you are already taking a bit of a step back emotionally. It’s hard not to when your dd has treated you so appallingly, I also agree you should perhaps make her aware of how hurt you have been by the estrangement, just not now when she’s coping with a newborn, it’s not fair of her to act like it was nothing. I hope to god she sees him for who he is and leaves but from what you say I don’t think that will happen anytime soon.

I wish you lots of love

Professorpootle what a shocking story and it sounds like it still haunts you. His actions when you were together and then when you decided it was over are just so classic - there are hundreds of stories on here with exactly the same behaviours - and other posters predict exactly what will happen next and how to “get ahead” of, and protected from their drama.

The comment that it is just bad luck that women end up with these men is so sad because we could easily educate girls what red flag behaviours are, to be vigilant all the time, to trust their gut, to talk to family and friends, that they will never change, to move on swiftly that they cannot be a fixer etc etc.

Thanks for the replies, which I have been thinking about overnight. Just to clarify, I don't think for one moment that abusive or controlling behaviour has anything to do with ASD.

Gutterton and Attila - DD's relationship with her previous BF lasted for nearly four years, from the age of 17 until just before her 21st birthday. She was still going out with him for her first year at university although they obviously saw a lot less of each other during term time. He was a lovely man, very kind, generous and thoughtful to DD as well as DD2 and DD3, who regarded him almost as a brother. DD1 broke off with him when she met SIL (from now on to be referred to as L(obster)B(oy) as I think it is probably less confusing) in the first term of her second year at university.

However, before the previous BF she was in a short lived relationship which turned out to be controlling, but she was 16 at the time (as was he), and living at home, and so she had family and friends and other influences around her. She was also concerned that one of her closest friends was in a controlling relationship (one of the friends she has now dropped) and they supported each other. That is why I was so surprised that she seems to have gone for the same type, but it's as though he has gradually eroded her boundaries. In the early stages of her relationship, she confided in me about incidents which concerned her - such as LB trying to stop her going on holiday, sending orders to the other tenants in her shared house (he was away doing his placement at that time so did not live there) etc. She said recently that she thought of me as her friend which is why she confided in me and now I think she wishes that she hadn't. She now sees everything he does as trying to protect her.

Gutterton - thank you for the suggestions regarding research which I can do to help understand the situation. I am hoping that I will also gain greater understanding by seeing DD and LB and seeing the daily dynamic of the relationship, as well as talking to DD, although expect he will be trying to prevent my spending any time alone with her. I am concerned by your reference to the effects on the DGCs. However, I don't think that LB will be responsive to any medical help. With the recent pregnancy, the hospital staff had previously advised an elective C section because of the problems with the first birth. At the 40 week check up, LB and DD were not prepared to wait another half hour to see the consultant, refused to go back to the hospital for the monitoring every other day, and signed a consent form discharging the hospital from any liability. They had researched matters on the internet and thought they knew better. They didn't go back for another couple of weeks, and the baby was born at over 43 weeks after a traumatic and life threatening emergency C section.

Professor - thank you so much for taking the time to share your experience which sounds horrendous and your BF sounds uncannily like LB. You clearly had a very lucky escape, even though it was difficult to untangle yourself. You sum it all up so clearly, how it is insidious, and how it may not be apparent to other people. Thank you also for your advice, which is particularly helpful, as coming from someone who has gone through this experience.

Albinoni you poor thing. The story of the birth is just shocking. I have never heard of anyone going 43+ weeks over. He put your daughters life and your DGD life at extreme risk. There are also health risks to baby and mother even after delivery post 43 weeks.

I really hope his actions here raised a massive big red flag with the health care professionals and that they will be looking closely. It almost feels like modern day slavery. Just shocking.

OP, I’m just popping back on to say that btw I was comparing LB to my friend’s brother who is so manipulative, not comparing your daughter to him! Hope that was clear.

he controls all of the money and both of the houses are in his sole name.

oh dear

@Albinoni I don't want to worry you, but I think your daughter got enmeshed with a psychopath.

Just be there for her, let her know you are always there, and that you, her Dad and her sisters are still there and still in the same place.

What a huge shame OP. No more money.

Thanks Gutterton and Earl.

Screaming - I will always be there for her and I know some people may think this is odd, but I still pay her mobile 'phone bill, so I know that she can always get in touch if she needs to.

I have asked for dates when it will be convenient to visit and meet both DGCs Adam awaiting the response. My feeling is that he has given permission for only a short visit, even though it involves travelling over 300 miles each way.

I also sent LB a message a few days ago asking how everyone was, which he has just ignored. Even DH, who always thinks the best of everyone and who is the last person to jump to conclusions, can see that he is rude.

Sorry not 'Adam', should be 'and am'

He is really vile isn’t he ? That need to always have the upper hand, and to punish you. Imagine living with someone like that. What in earth must he be like as a parent ? How will he cope when the dc go to school etc ? He will want your dd to home school them I imagine, as a way of keeping control over all of them.
So hard to begin to help your dd escape from him when she won’t acknowledge a problem. Is she scared of him ?

Thanks for your post SirVix. I am obviously not LB's biggest fan, but DD clearly loves him, so I will do my best to befriend him when we visit, although DD hasn't come back with any dates yet. However, she did send a photo of the two DGDs, so clearly wants to be in touch.

I hadn't thought of home schooling, but I have a horrible feeling you may be right. It is exactly the sort of thing he - and therefore DD - would think to be a good idea, as he will be sure that they will be far better than any schoolteachers, which could make the DGDs very isolated.

I don't think that DD is physically scared of him, but I think that she is afraid of his displeasure. She will chat very naturally, especially if he is not around - the difference is very marked - but will clam up if the conversation strays into certain areas. She seems as though she is trying to appease him, wheedling or coaxing him to agree to things, such as being able to communicate with her family, in his role as head of the household. She doesn't seem to make any decisions independently.

Both the DGDs are named after LB's GPs ie one has a second name which is a feminisation of his grandfather's name. DD's grandmother, however, to whom she was very close growing up, like us had no knowledge of the DGDs existence until very recently, when we shared the news. DD said that she was going to send her a Christmas card, so I suppose that is progress.

This isn’t love Albinoni

Love is really v simple - it’s kindness and respect. This isn’t happening here.

Your DD is in a v abusive RS with someone with a v significant PD. Probably NPD and/or PPD - the conspiratory theory / extreme right wing views would point to this.

His behaviours towards her are classic abuse - isolation, controlling, her walking on egg-shells. Him trapping her with early marriage and babies at a v young age.

Her change in tone when speaking with you indicates her fear and stress (she may not even be conscious of it yet - Stockholm Syndrome).

Currently it is emotional abuse - coercive control - but I would argue it has strayed into physical abuse as he put her life at risk when she was due to deliver.

I would research everything you can on PPD/NPD and the control and abuse meted out to partners and children. I would research DV and Stockholm syndrome so that you are clear what advice experts give in such delicate and volatile situations.

She isn’t “in love” - she is scared - tap dancing to his tune to soothe his mood.

The best way to deal with NPD is to do the “grey rock method” - you need to make yourselves - dull, inert, uninteresting ie not a threat (as he sees it). His paranoia is that you will expose him.

He will read threat into every move you make - which then incites rage - maybe silent punishment to you, changing arrangements etc - but God knows what to your DD behind closed doors. Cutting her off from you.

Drop the rope. Be inert. Don’t try to be his friend. I wouldn’t have sent him a text either. Let him think he is winning. Don’t rock the boat.

Be really careful what you put on text to your DD. Assume he censors every single one and try to imagine how a paranoid mind with total contempt for you could twist the meaning in even a semi-colon .... just be v vague and vanilla. Also assume he records her calls.

Gutterton. Thank you so much for your advice and I am sorry for the slight delay in replying. Some days I feel so distressed by it all, that I find it difficult to do anything, even post on here.

I have thought for a long time that it might be some form of Stockholm Syndrome. She seems so passive and, of course, she is now even more tied with the arrival of her DD2.

I fear you are probably right that he checks her messages and listen in to 'phone calls. I also think you are right to keep everything 'vanilla', just admire the DGDs.

DD has been contacting me every day and a couple of days ago said that she was still in a lot of pain and staying on the sofa all day and that LB's parents had taken DGD1, so I was worried about her. I sent a loving message saying she was brave and I was proud of her etc but also asked if she had been for a check up and that I assumed that the midwives had been round to check up on her and baby. She hasn't replied to this so I am wondering if she discharged herself from hospital against medical advice again and signed another form to stop them having any liability. Perhaps she hasn't been checked over. It is troubling as it was such a complicated birth. I still find it hard to believe that she was telling me all about it and saying that she was going to follow medical advice and stay in for 3-4 days, then he texts me saying they have made a remarkable recovery and are going home just a few hours later.

I am also now scared to send the Christmas presents which I bought, as they are very strict about what toys they have. I understand this and will obviously respect their wishes - I do totally get that they don't want too much clutter - but it seems to go beyond this. For example, about a year ago DD mentioned her childhood rocking horse, which is wooden and hand painted, which she loved and played on all the time. I said I would send it when she needed it, but obviously I didn't know that she needed it until recently, as I didn't know there was a child. I made preparations to send it so it would be there for Christmas, but told her in advance. She then messaged me to say that they didn't have the room for it. That may be the case, of course, but my impression is that he doesn't want his DC having anything from us.

I am just wondering if I will ever see the DGDs and a lot of the time now I am OK, but some days it is like a knife twisting. I know he wants to hurt me but why does he want to hurt DD if he really loves her?

I think you are right that I need to be inert. It's all very sound advice, thank you.

I would call the labour ward. You can be anonymous and insist that they keep confidentiality. Ask to speak with someone senior.

He doesn’t know how to love - only to own, control, threaten, hurt. She is not passive - she is living in fear, walking on eggshells. She is terrified even if she isn’t conscious of it. Seriously don’t send the rocking horse - he would destroy it.

It is horrific and painful for you. But take strength that you are on to him now. His behaviours will be v predictable and you are now much better placed the navigate this fragile/volatile situation. As long as he doesn’t know that you know or feel threatened.

I wonder if you can engage the services of an expert on SS, DA, PDs, cult mind games etc on a private consultancy basis - so that they could advise on an intervention strategy - or how to bide your time etc.

Maybe ask what gifts they want for the DGDs - let him think he is in 100% control.

Or maybe don’t ask about gifts - as this might set up a new revenue stream for him - which he will try and guilt you into buying nappies, milk, clothes etc.

Thank you so much Gutterton for your further useful advice. I think you are absolutely right, I shall just ask them what they want and stick to it, but not be drawn into anything on a regular or permanent basis.

Please contact the hospital where she had the baby and report that you believe she is a controlling and coerrsive relationship. There may not be anything they can do but what you said about the end of the pregnancy and birth is chilling. Have the moved 300 miles away to do the PGCEs? How did they manage to buy two properties outright? There may be elements of ASD in LB but it sounds more like some sort of personality disorder to.me. Also don't criticise LB to her but do point out behaviours or plans which are ',unusual'. Good luck.

Thanks for the advice Spangle, but the hospital staff won't speak to me for data protection reasons. Also, I am afraid that LB would suspect that I was responsible if they did investigate and I fear then that I wouldn't hear from DD at all. At least she is in touch now, she has said that the midwives have been round and also that she will go back to the hospital if she feels no better.

DD's course is due to start next academic year although she has to do some on line learning for six months before, I think, for which she gets paid apparently. So the move will not take place until the summer, but I worry that she will struggle to keep up with a baby and a toddler. Maybe she would be better to defer for a year if this is possible. I don't want her to lose the opportunity but equally don't want her to have all that upheaval and stress, only to crash, burn and fail. The course could really boost her confidence or destroy it, which is what I am concerned about.

The first house was bought with money from LB's GP plus a profit LB made on a house which he and DD made some improvements to. The second house was bought with LB's teaching bursary and a loan from us.

I will not criticise LB to DD as I know that would be a big mistake. I think just by visiting - if I am allowed - and being 'normal' around her and being in regular touch is the best that I can realistically do at present.

I agree that LB probably has some sort of personality disorder. I have just told things as I see them on this thread, not tried to embellish and perfectly happy to accept criticism - I would like to know how I went wrong and try to avoid making similar mistakes in the future - but there does seem to be a general view that LB's behaviour is something to be concerned about, that it is not all in my head.

It really is like a hostage situation Albinoni
and I really don't envy you having to "negotiate", using a 'softly, softly' approach.
You too are walking on eggs.
There definitely is coercive control going on with LB but your daughter either can't see it/ won't see it / or sees it and is trapped as she and her babies are at risk.
All I can do is wish you the very best dealing with a ghastly situation.

It’s 100% not in your head.

Do they ever socialise or interact with anyone apart from his parents?

Is she 100% socially isolated?

If so I would be encouraging her to do the course ASAP as this is her only opportunity for a breakthrough - where she meets a friend/colleague/tutor and the penny drops. Really it doesn’t matter if she finds the course hard to deal with / not sure if you can “fail” it - maybe have extensions etc if she ends up struggling with time management.

Many people do this conversion with small children as the job (theoretically) gives a better work/life balance with DCs. She is likely to meet others on the course with you children. My sister did her PGCE with 2 babies 15 months apart and also looking after my 2 year old. It was part time (over 2 years) and large parts were distance learning so easier to work around.

But your DD will no doubt love the school environment and social contact.