Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

You and your daughter seem to speak to each other in quite an officious way. Maybe trying to speak to her as a mother to her daughter would be better.

Cakeandcustard, I'm sure you mean well in saying this, but I have experience of estrangement in my family too, and I think you've probably got the wrong end of the stick here. The OP HAS made her love for her DD clear in all the messages she's sent. Once someone has cut you off for an extended period of time (in my case it was my DSis) it's pretty impossible to carry on speaking to that family member in a 'normal' way. Things are emphatically not normal, and sometimes no matter how you respond, the other person will take it the wrong way.

I tried so hard for many years to say or do the right thing to get my DSis to resume a relationship again. I constantly second-guessed myself and worried about not getting the tone right. I finally came to understand that ultimately, it was her choice. She knew I loved her and wanted a relationship, but she didn't want it. I had to respect her choice and let it drop. It has been a few years now since I've tried to make contact and I feel a lot more peaceful about it all now. She knows how to get in touch with me if she wants to get in touch, but I've given up knocking at the door she has closed.

I still get very frustrated though when well-meaning friends or relatives say things like, 'But she's your sister! Surely if you just send her a card and tell her you love her, she'll answer!' Do they honestly think I haven't tried that?!

The problem here isn't with how the OP is speaking to her daughter. I think she needs to 'let go' mentally, hard as it is, and recognise that the ball is in her DD's court. And not give any more emotionally or financially than she is able to give without compromising her own happiness and dignity. Self-care and boundaries are important. You're handling this very impressively, OP

Thanks everybody. I enjoyed the theatre and I met a friend there which was lovely. I was feeling happy, that everything was resolved.

Then I called DD2 to discuss arrangements for Monday, as I am helping her to move and she is intending to move a lot of stuff to our house and divide her time between here and the flat in London. She sounded delighted to hear from me then asked about DD1. I said she had sent some pictures and she asked if I had been in touch and I had to say that I had. She asked if I had mentioned money etc. I wish now I had lied but I can't do that.

DD2 was very upset, said she can't do it any more, she gives advice, I ignore it - I didn't even wait for one day before getting in touch with DD1 despite assuring her and DD3 that I wouldn't. She said that she doesn't want to see us get into debt to give money to DD1 which they don't need, that I should have some self-respect, that she doesn't want to talk to me about it again, that at least DH is consistent. I apologised profusely but I know I let her down when she was trying to help me. She is also very upset about DD1 so it costs her a lot emotionally to talk about it and to help me. I feel totally wretched and ashamed.

I went up to my room to have a cry and fell asleep, so missed the lovely dinner which DH had cooked - or, at least ended up eating it a couple of hours later. He wasn't very happy with me either. He said that I should compartmentalise and that I shouldn't discuss DD1 with DD2 and DD3. They don't want to know and if I do mention it, they feel compelled to offer advice, and then of course they are upset when I ignore it. He had also said not to reply to DD1's nasty text and had previously said not to tell DD1 how upset I still am. Why didn't I listen?

Oddly, this has all made me feel more detached, like I am floating, not in my body, just functioning, but I need to turn my emotions off. I just deal with everything so badly. When I was a lawyer, I was smart and savvy, good at negotiating,successful, felt in control, obtained results - or at least my clients seemed to think so. But this, I can't handle it. I just get everything wrong. I now feel like saying I won't go on the trip so I can show DD2 I am taking her advice, but then DH will be upset.

I don't know if I am being 'played' by DD1 or not, but I can't stand the conflict. I should have listened to Gutterton and DH and kept it 'vanilla'. It is so hard to see the images of the DGDs, who are both adorable. I want to trust DD1, to believe that she wants a relationship but, in truth, I don't know what to think any more. My mind is in turmoil and I feel that I can't do right for doing wrong. I want to solve it. I want to find some peace.

SirVix - as ever, you make perceptive comments and give excellent advice. Why do I read all of this advice and hear it from those closest to me but then ignore it? Do I have some self-destruct button? I know you are all right and then I do something different. What is the matter with me?

Random - thank you for your practical and helpful comments, as well as your continued support.

5LC - thank you for your excellent advice. You are right, I do feel caught in a net. I said to DH that I felt that I was in an abusive relationship and he said 'you spend too much time on MN', even though I have not told him about this thread and I wouldn't. He would definitely disapprove. He is a very private person. I almost feel that I am letting him down by starting this thread, but it is so good to have some support, a lifeline in fact. Thank you. I don't actually feel that I want any contact with DD1 now for a while. It's as though I want closure, but on a happy note. It's like the last day of school or the last night of the Proms - I want to sing a happy song and have a happy memory and that's it. Right now, I don't mind if I don't meet the DGDs. I am happy to see them in the smiling photos and videos, and that is enough. I want to say goodbye on a happy note.

Grohn - you are right, LB does have a huge chip on his shoulder and I think I may have exacerbated that. It was all on my earlier thread, nearly five years ago now, but I am not sure how much I have replicated here. There was a big build up to the day when I ordered him to leave our house, because DD1 was locked in the bathroom sobbing and it seemed to be the culmination of a pattern of controlling and abuse. I asked him nicely to leave, offered to give him a lift to the station, but he wouldn't go, said he had to speak to DD1 first. I snapped, told him he was 'controlling', 'nobody liked him', 'he was not good enough for my daughter'. I asked him to leave again and then went down the garden with my dogs for about 15 minutes. I was shaking and felt quite vulnerable.

I felt intimidated, as the situation felt volatile. He is obviously much younger than I am, and I knew that he had been very good at boxing, won competitions etc. He had also been involved in a fight some months earlier. He said he had been drunk at the time and had been attacked, but he doesn't drink and he didn't want to pursue a claim to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board, despite a very badly broken arm, which I though was odd at the time, as he is usually out for what he can get financially. Anyway, I went back to the house with the dogs and asked him to leave again and repeated what I had said and threatened to call the police if he did not leave. So he left, throwing me a look of pure hatred on his way out. Then DD1 emerged from the bathroom in a terrible state. DD3 and I tried to calm her down, but she went after him.

Since that day, I knew he would want his revenge, but he has had to wait for a while. He has told my DD that she gets her 'batshit craziness' from me, and he refers to me as the 'wicked witch of the south' (even though I am actually a Lancastrian). And those are only the things DD has told me. I can only imagine what else he has said and how much he has criticised and denigrated our family over the years. I am sure I could be painted as mad and irrational in my reactions on that day, but I honestly felt scared and that I had to protect DD1.

Grohn - you are right that I do want to see DD1 for myself, to see how she is, 'how the land lies'. I am actually quite good, I think, at reading situations and dealing with people face to face, unlike LB, who is very poor at one to one discussions or conversation, and prefers to send emails or letters, which he has spent a long time drafting. So, of course,I now realise how stupid I am to engage in that territory, with his weapons of choice.

Cake - I take your point. That's why I want to see her and talk to her in person. We have seen her only once, with LB, for lunch at a restaurant, in nearly three years. In that time, she has had two children. She is a stranger in some respects.

marfisa - I am very sorry about the situation with your sister and thank you for your support.

I remember you Op and my. heart goes out to you.

I agree with your DH though. Keep your relationships separate. Other Dds don't need to share your emotional babbage or to be influenced against their sister by knowing more than they have to.

Keep things light and loving with DD so LB has nothing to fear and she has an escape route.

Hope things work out .

singalong - you are right. I have over shared with DDs2 and 3, which I should not have done. I should not have leant on them or given information which makes any ultimate reconciliation between the sisters less likely. In my defence, I haven't had counselling and DH doesn't want to talk about it. He doesn't get why I can't compartmentalise like he does. It's difficult because I see a lot of DDs 2 and 3 and, of course, they see that something is wrong and they want to help, but it hurts them too. I am an emotional person and I find it hard to hide my emotions.

Oh no! How awful for all of you.

I have been thinking. Do you believe this much vaunted meeting will actually take place? It seems to be the carrot they are using to get you to do what they want (money).

I wonder if the meeting will keep getting pushed back and back til you have legally committed money-wise to what they want, then they will engineer a situation where you have done something‘wrong’ and go NC again.

Even if not Is a relationship based solely on money one that you want? Because they will always try to tap you for more Using the DGD as a bargaining chip.

Would it not be better to tell them that you want a relationship with them but not financial ties? If they don’t want to know, well then you know you are just a cash cow to them. Your fear/desperation ability you DD1 and DGD comes across loud and clear on head. Your DD1 and LB will know this too. Tlhey have you right where they want you

Honestly, this is wrecking your health and your relationship with your other daughters. At this point I don’t think it matters why your DD1 acts how she does. The result is the same.

I’d cut my losses I’m afraid.

You desperately need a decent therapist to help you through this. To accept DD1 is not ready to leave and no matter how much money you give it will not change things.

Yes you can send vanilla replies. You could even phone DD1 as soon as she sends a message as surely she is on her phone at that time (or could
It be LB).

It concerning that it appears you can't actually afford to give this money? DD2 thinks you are going to get into debt to provide it???

DD1 and LB both know your weaknesses and are exploiting them. You are easily hurt and fear separation/death.You are desperately trying to change things but you can't because they do not want it to change...

Sorry to hear how you are feeling.
I think it's feeling so bad for two main reasons
A) a reconciliation with DD1 is not within your control no matter what you say or do - and you aren't ready and able to accept this fact yet
B) you are a people pleaser - this means you try and keep everyone happy but it's not possible to do that in this situation and in any case you are not honouring your own needs

A good therapist could really help you but it may take time to work on the above. As you can see the situation is adversely affecting your other relationships and your own well being. It's time for professional support for yourself OP.

Oh Albinoni what an awful end to your evening.

But one thing I would take from it is your other DDs feelings and seriously consider withdrawing the offer of money. The last thing you need is it causing a rift between other members of the family and you becoming further isolated. 💐

I've just read the whole thread and can't imagine how awful this is for you. But I can sympathise with DD2. My mum is in a different situation to you but similar undertones. It's all she wants to talk about. I give her advice and then our next conversation rehashes the same points. It's exhausting and I end up stopping caring.

I'm not saying you are constantly discussing this with DD2 and DD3, I'm sure you're not, but it does become very wearying from the listener's point of view.

Also, I've never been in your situation and hope I never am, but I feel you are giving everything to repair this relationship and getting nothing but crumbs back. Whatever financial help you give will never be enough. Your DD has made her bed and, hard as it is, I think you have to let her lie in it. You have to protect your own mental health too. Maybe she is being abused by SIL, or maybe she is showing her true nature. Sometimes you have to just walk away

In your desperate attempt to repair your relationship with DD1 you're nuking all the others. These are people who genuinely love and care for you.

You will never have a good relationship with DD1. You'll never get to bond with the babies.
But you can save what you have with your two other daughters and your husband.

Honestly I'd not reply to any messages from DD1 for at least a week. Just block her and cleanse. Imagine that it's a few months ago and rest your life.
This is taking over who you are. You need to rebalance the control.

Then go back to completely neutral responses.
The sisters will never ever reconcile.

Albioni - I'm so sorry. These feelings of being unreal you are experiencing are frightening, but they have a name - depersonalisation. It's a defence mechanism, a response to trauma and very high levels of anxiety and rumination. And you have experienced a lot of trauma in your life which is sitting underneath this current situation with DD.

You need to ground. This means quite literally feeling your feet on the earth, being in your body, finding your core/centre. Just planting your feet and feeling the sensations in them can help, as can taking some deep, full breaths into your belly with your hands on it. I agree re the therapy but I think something physical will also help you. Something like yoga or tai chi.

Can you go outside in nature today - are you near anywhere you can go for a walk? Look for snowdrops and other signs of spring - it is coming. Sending hugs to you.

Just because your husband is not experiencing this as abuse does not mean that you are not.

Here is a link
www.healthline.com/health/signs-of-mental-abuse
it includes family members in it's definition of abusive relationships. There is enough in there relates directly to what you have described. I hope it helps.

There is no shame in this for you. You have struggled and fought but now it's time to tend to yourself. It's distressing to read you once again talking about taking the fight against SIL to a new arena ( face to face). Just step back. Stop. Every time you let them ( him) get a reaction from you it is worse not better for your daughter because he will beat you because it's his game.

You are unhappy when relationships get tangled up with money. They have asked for money, DH is sorting it out, on behalf of you both so you are stepping away until it's done. That is a reasonable position.

Step away from all communication until the money is sorted and every time money is mentioned.

Start facing the reality of your situation, see your gp and find a counsellor to help you do this. You need support, not to take SIL on and win your daughter back but to get out of the stuck position you are in, to keep your health and family together until the day when she comes back by choice.

again for DD2 . Please follow her advice.

To find a therapist ring a few up and have a chat with them about the issues and what you hope to achieve. Hopefully you will click with one of them.

Check out their credentials as you don't need much to call yourself a counsellor.

Oh Albinoni
Looks like you’ve had another wakeful night. I’m so sorry. I just want to echo what everyone else is saying .

Step back from DD1 and LB. you can’t change that situation. Block and delete her number ( for now) if you can’t trust yourself not to respond . Let DH take over the communication. Her /his messages do not need immediate responses.

Don’t let your relationships with DH , DD2 and DD3 be collateral damage here . That would be tragic .

You really need good professional help and I don’t think you can afford to wait until you feel ready ,

Why not use today to search out someone who can help ( looks like you’ve had some good advice on here as to where to look ) and then tomorrow morning ring and make an appointment. It would be a positive step and might make you feel a bit more in control.

Sending best wishes
Xxx

As puzzling has said, those feelings are a trauma response.
Please, please albinioni, don’t feel guilty about your responses, or about talking to your daughters. This situation involves you as a whole family. Your DH may be able to compartmentalise, but very few people can manage that, and it isn’t always a healthy response .It is a tactic to avoid pain, but sometimes painful situations need to be faced and felt, rather than stored away.
I am shocked but not surprised at the situation you describe where LB refused to leave your house. I would have called the police in your place, so you were very restrained. No normal person would do that, insist on staying in their girlfriend’s parents’ house after being asked politely to leave. It highlights very clearly his entitlement, arrogance and bullying. Also the “Wicked Witch” comments, does your Dd let him say stuff like this about you unchallenged? You are a Wicked Witch and yet they are happy to exploit you ? Shameful, really shameful.
You do not mess things up. You are allowed feelings. You are also being very effectively played, which is obviously upsetting for your other family members to see, but they are not in the firing line as you are, and I do agree with you that being honest with your other dds is the only way. Too much manoeuvring is expected of you, and the stress of that is huge. Being open and straightforward is easier and less stressful.

In your place I would probably telephone my dd, and ask her what she was expecting financially. I would tell her how I felt. I would possibly pay whatever I felt I had promised, (only IF I could ensure it was for her course alone) and then back off. I am not you, and I am not at all suggesting that this is the right way, or the only way, just that for my temperament and nature, it would be what I would do. I could not cope with trying to give months of “That’s nice dear” type responses to texts. I would probably have gone to her house to see her by now, because I could not stand staying away.
I would probably not have offered any money to start with, given LB’s demands for cash, but I can see why you have, and the awful manipulation -the pictures of tiny Grandchildren, the hope of a course- that has led you to give more cash and to promise more again.
Anyway, trying to behave in a way alien to you is causing you far too much stress. Your DH should see this and be sympathetic, rather than critical. I think he is burying his grief and seeing you upset exposes it, and makes it harder for him to compartmentalise, so he criticises your response, but your response is as valid as his. You seem to be being held responsible for everyone’s hurt and pain, but LB is responsible, not you. You have too much on your shoulders, trying to mother everyone. You have also had a career where problems can be solved logically, where there are rules to be obeyed, and this situation is the opposite.

You need to think of this in a similar way to having a child with heroin addiction. Parents in that situation try everything, often get bled dry financially and emotionally, yet the change only comes when their child actually wants change. Your dd has to want change.
Have her sisters told her what they think of LB ? Have you all told her that this is a terrible, toxic relationship?
Is there an actual date in place for your meeting ? It seems to have been shunted so many times. I would be absolutely honest at that meeting. This text relationship has an unreal quality that is painful for you, but allows your dd to not take responsibility for any of her actions, or to face what is being said to you, and its consequences. She needs to see and feel the pain of this.
If I was your friend I would be taking you out for lunch today and giving you a huge hug. You have too much on your shoulders, and you are trying to take on board everyone’s feelings. I stand by what I said earlier, feel the freedom of knowing that whatever you do will be twisted into wrong by LB, so you may as well just be your honest self.

Oh and your dd2 is hurt and frustrated, but a sibling relationship is very different to a parent.

Worth calling these people tomorrow, as although the clinical team in changing, they may have some advice on who you can talk to. I think you have a form of PTSD from the losses of your Mother, brother, and the living loss of your DD.
www.traumaclinic.org.uk/

I assumed that you sent the reply saying you would offer some support was that after discussing the matter with your DH and DDs, you had all agreed that this should be the course of action, but it seems that this wasn't the case.

I don't want to sound cruel but you are heading into the territory or people who keep sending large amounts of money to a toy-boy they briefly met on a tropical holiday or an internet mail-order bride they've never met but who promises that they love them. Their loved ones tell them they need to stop doing this but keep on transferring money anyway. Quite rational people can get caught up in this kind of thing and feel that have to go through with it.

You know that LB hates you and would take every penny of yours if he could but emotionally you want to help DD1 and the DGS and this is your way of doing this.

territory of people

www.standalone.org.uk/about/

You may some help here.

Or try talking to your GP who will have a local list of counseling options.

You won't get much from Stand Alone I'm afraid. They are heavily weighted in favour of the adult child who has chosen to estrange. The founder has clearly unresolved issues from her own past relationship with her parents whom she has chosen to estrange. There are other orgs that support the estranged parent.

You say "What is the matter with me?" I'd say you are a mother who can't permanently let go of her child. Or it seems permanent, anyway. How does a mother let go of her own child? People blithely say let her go. She is attached to your very soul and its not possible simple.

To that end I agree you need professional support. You need the expertise to pick this apart.

Are your other daughters mothers? I doubt it somehow. Or maybe younger women can't truly imagine such a thing could possibly happen to them.

In one sense I agree with DH that you need to compartmentalise ie your daughters need to back off. We all need some humility to recognise we may not fully understand a situation and that our advice may not hit the mark. We can still be comparison without demanding summertime follows our advice. But it isn't that simple : they are also deeply affected by this and, I suppose, want it to stop, to go away, to return to the family peace they have known throughout their lives. That's understandable. But perhaps its time for some boundaries : that no-one can order you about and tell you what to do any more, especially about something so vital and primal.

I think you do know what to do and you're doing it, you have your own wisdom. The initial letter/text with the disastrous result was you following your gut wisdom :you tried that, it didn't work - but you had to try it, it was part of the process. Xx

• we can still be compassionate without demanding someone follows our advice.

From what you have said, I think she didn’t tell you about Dgc, as she didn’t want to disappoint you.
That’s your child, if she wants to borrow from you and you wish to lend it, that’s your business. You should be proud of the support you have provided in different circumstances.
I have a similar situation, my daughter 16, left last summer and I still don’t know why or when I will see or speak to her again. My divorcing her abusive dad, which she saw, seems to be the basis of it. She left to live with him, but is staying elsewhere with dad paying for it?! He has recently bought her a new phone with new number cutting off my last way to her. She asnd called or given me her new number! All I can do is wait.

I wish you all well, put aside your feelings, that’s what mums do and revel in the fact that your daughter is well and you now have another chance with her and you grandchild xx

User148 have you looked at parental alienation?

I have now! And that’s sounds like. Y situation. However, I’m not sure it applies as in uk! Since she’s 16 she can choose!

Thank you for your replies, all of which I have read and taken comfort from. I have hopefully gained some insight from my latest gaffe. More than anything my concern is for DD2 who has been truly wonderful and I feel that I have let her down. She is also very wise. We spoke yesterday about the move today, which we are helping with, so it will be a long day. Then texted me that she hoped I wasn't beating myself up:

'It isn't for me to forgive you Mum, it is for you to forgive yourself. About everything. You need to recognise that your relationship with X isn't your fault and you can't fix it. No matter how much money you give her, no matter how many times you apologise to her, no matter how hard you try, you can't properly move forward and heal your relationship with her if she doesn't want to.

I just can't be involved with the situation any more because it does impact my relationship with you. It is really hard to see you follow the same patterns of behaviour with her in the hopes of yielding a different result. I have said all I can say about the situation with X and I have said the same things thousands of times over the past 3-4 years. I can't do any more and there is no point in me just repeating myself when you already know what I think.

I appreciate that, whilst I believe that instating boundaries and, ultimately walking away is the best option (and, indeed, the option I chose a long time ago), your relationship with X is different. I can't make you do what I think is best, you have to do what you think is best. What I will say is that we can't make people make certain decisions or feel or act in a certain way. We can only work on ourselves and managing our own reactions and boundaries (and expectations)'