Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

A positive thing about them having a formal loan agreement with you even if you never intend to ask for it back it does mean that it is a marital debt if they ever split up.

Presumably you could register an interest in one of their properties even though it is an unsecured debt?

If LB kicks off, you need to remind them that you have 3 daughters and you need to ensure money is loaned "fairly". Again he wants more money so is likely to begrudgingly sign it...

I disagree that you need to be conciliatory, or behave in any way designed to influence him or the situation. I have read and re read the thread, and I feel that whatever you say is irrelevant to him, as he hates the fact of you. He hates that she had a life before him, with people who she loved and who love her. He does not want contact, other than to get cash. So whether you are direct, or neutral, whether you show your feelings , or don’t, none of this will make any difference because it isn’t about you as a person, or your family as individuals and what you did or did not do. It is about him having power and him isolating your dd. In a way that is quite freeing, you can’t do anything wrong, because you can’t do anything right. This is entirely impersonal and to do with your status in relation to your daughter.
Your daughter has to somehow come to understand what a terrible person he is, and I think may only come from meeting other young women in good relationships, and having friends , which is why he will do everything he can to stop her meeting anyone at all with another narrative, especially you.
The other possibility is that he will be such a terrible father that she will leave to protect her children.

Random I think if they are asking for multiple thousands of pounds for a specific thing then the OP has every right to ask for proof that it’s being spent as per the agreement. I don’t think anyone could argue that it would make her controlling.

I have given my DC money for a car. If they’d spent it on a holiday and still needed a car Id be mighty pissed off and would feel conned.

Great post SirVix. OP I have never been in your situation but I have dealt with abuse and I do know that you have to let go of the idea that 'if only I could get xx to see how unreasonable they are being and to empathize with me this wouldn't be happening' . It puts all the focus on them and all the effort on you. It's why DARVO ( description earlier in thread) works for them. Abused people (I count you in this group) need to remember that they are equally allowed to have needs and boundaries. It's not easy, which is why dv victims take so long to leave.

Please step away from the communication for a bit...let DH take the lead, even the texts. lb wants you in this highly emotional state, that's the game he's playing and his reward is more control as well as the money.

I think I will step away from this for now. Read the thread from the beginning, there is some great advice here. Your behaviour here is part of the key ( not what you did in the past, because that could have been anything as others have said, but your reaction now) that's why he's letting her text you.

These are for your dd2 and 3. I hope you can listen to their voices calling you back from this in the same way that you want dd1 to listen to yours.

My advice ( to take or leave) is stay strong and calm. Grey rock not peace offerrings. Focus on your right to be treated well and with respect. Every time you accept less your daughters position weakens.

Ps When I say step away from the texts I mean forward every one to dh. Get him to reply with something like mum sent this on to me and we both think it's lovely. You can text back to either of us as we are both committed to you as our daughter. Sign mum and dad.

Then make an agreement with dh that he will answer in future on your phone or his for you both as a respite for you from the main emotional load and to show you are a strong team together.

Don't blame you for sending the message, the reply was hideous and painful to read and I would assume it's from him and it isn't the way your DD1 would even talk.
Like many on here, your predicament is on my mind and not only when catching up with the thread. What they are doing, not letting you see you DGD2 until MARCH is monstrous in my opinion, monstrous and unforgivable and if it wasn't for the fact that your DD1 might need rescuing at some point plus the wishes of your DH, I would advise you to walk right away from the entire situation which is what I would do myself. Will be interesting to see how they respond to the latest message. Agree with the suggestion to get your DH to take over communication for now, have February off to get your strength back. xx

Agree with mcmooberry it is monstrous. It is all so callous, cruel and vindictive. There is real venom in that last text, which is why I don’t believe it was solely written by your daughter . Possibly your daughter hasn’t even seen it, possibly she has gone along with LB.
I know what a bewildering, stab to the heart that would be, if I had a message like that , ostensibly from one of my daughters.

You do need to look after yourself , this much stress can make people ill. Make sure you have fun , walk outside, do things to wind down as much as possible, because this might take years to resolve. The goalposts will shift, the date of your visit could be moved over and over again.
LB wants you to feel on the back foot, he wants to hurt you, so keep some kernel of yourself safe and untouchable.

It’s fine to send a calm peaceful follow up message in response to his vicious one.

But you really need to be v careful here as it looks like he has got you exactly where he wants you - ie secured the cash and provoked you enough to justify painting you as the villain - so they can cut you off again.

1: You are handing over more money (£40K) with no strings attached. He will manoeuvre this into his sole name like he did the last £35K. You will not see this money again and your DD1 and DGDs may not even benefit from it. Somehow he will ensure she doesn’t start the course or drops out. Even if you pay the rent directly - it just frees up the rest of their money (£26k tax free bursary + childcare allowance + rental from x2 mortgage free houses £20k?). Even if she she leaves him he will have hidden it somehow.

2: You have already “loaned” £35K with no formal or informal agreement which she transferred immediately into his sole name. Again you will not see this money again and again your DD1 and your DGDs may not benefit from it. If she leaves him she will not get any of this either.

I understand that you want to help her financially. But be clear that you are giving HIM £75,000. If she does escape with your DGDs I hope that that the pot hasn’t run dry and that there is sufficient money left to house, feed, cloth and rehabilitate them (because they will need therapy) as well as fees for a SH lawyer and a forensic accountant to extricate her from him.

And I hope that the total sum £75k + escape fund is not more than your other two daughters will get.

Hi Albinoni glad to hear that you had a lovely day with DD3 yesterday .

Please be careful that in your understandable desperation to help DD1 you don’t ( however unwittingly ) alienate your two younger DDs.

Good plan to let DH read and respond to any messages. It will just give you a rest from that feeling of dread every time you hear a text or e
mail come through. It’ll give your body a break from being constantly on alert too. I did this for a while and it helps .

Hope you have something lovely planned for the weekend. Thinking of you
Xxx

Oh dear, my heart sank reading your update. From the outside looking in, it looks like you have capitulated rather than standing firm in your truth.

This is what you said yesterday morning:
‘DD2 said she thought I was right to send the message and to stick to my boundaries. She says she thinks I almost get there but then back down and apologise, but if I apologise this time she will never speak to me again!’

They say many a true word is spoken in jest. I think you need to take what your DD2 is saying very, very seriously.

This morning, you say you sent a message to DD1 praising her good qualities and promising to provide financial support and while you did not include an overt apology, you implied one by saying you got the wording wrong.

This is not maintaining boundaries. You are being inconsistent - not surprising, as it sounds like you have very little support with this. That is why people, including me, have been urging you to seek professional help. You said your previous attempts at counselling didn’t work – have you thought about why?

My feeling reading your posts is there is something in the dynamic between you and DD1 that you need to uncover and explore. Why do you want to keep sending her money even though you know in your heart it will not help the situation? Really dig into this. I don’t think it’s just that the course will give her outside contact or the other justifications you have given - I suspect there's something else under it.

Here are some questions that came up for me when I thought about your situation (not for answering on this thread, unless you especially want to - just sharing in case any help):

What do you think your role as the parent of an adult child is and should be? What was your own relationship with your mother like? What do you do with your time when you are not mothering your (adult) children (which incudes thinking/worrying about them)? Do you work or volunteer? Have hobbies, passions, interests, friends? Who are you, aside from your roles as a mother and wife?

I understand, I really do understand, the utter devastation when someone so close to you comes at you with something like this, which feels so very unfair and I do not mean any of the above unkindly at all. I really feel this whole situation is calling you to go deeply into your own healing. It takes courage, but it is possible. I am happy to PM you if it would help.

I appreciate also that others have a much different view to me on the thread and it may be none of this resonates with you, which is also fine. All of the above is only based on what I’ve read and without knowing you none of us posting here can really do much more than make guesses filtered through our own experiences. That’s why developing a relationship with a professional, experienced therapist could be very helpful for you.

TBH as DD1 and LB are old enough to marry, have 2 DC and 2 Homes and don't need to work they do not NEED any money from you and DH.

Why do you both feel that you should give more money to people that have been incredibly nasty and cruel? They have already had more money from you for one of the houses than DD2 and DD3 put together.

How can your DH actually hand more money over to DD1 when she has been the vessel to be so cruel to you?

The whole PCGE is a ruse to get more money from you and the government to build LB empire....

I cannot see that DD1 doing a PGCE is going to get her to leave LB and you are just throwing money away instead of having it ready in the future to help DD1 escape if she ever wants to.

Thank you for all of your replies. So much advice, so much wisdom, and so many people taking time to think about my situation and reply. I am really, really grateful and you have given me a lot to think about.

champagneandfromage (wonderful user name!) - No, that is not the relationship I want. What I said in my earlier email - the one which they found so offensive - is that a relationship based on 'financial support' is not a relationship at all, but that I have 'an abundance of love' to give. Gut-wrenching as it is, the deeply unpleasant response makes it clear that the love appears to be of little value, and that the only useful thing we have done for them is provide a sum of money, with the prospect of more to come.

SirVix - this is my great dilemma and the reason I want to have the meeting in March, although I suspect it may be painful. I need to see for myself how things are. Is DD instigating this course of conduct, is she complicit, or is she acting under LB's influence? My own view is that she is complicit, but that matters would not have gone so far without LB. I genuinely believe that she mourns the loss of the relationship with her family. I know her to be manipulative and sometimes careless of people's feelings, but I do not believe her to be deliberately cruel. I have not spoken to her on the telephone for a while, and I don't really feel up to it right now.

Random - I agree that it would be better to pay a monthly amount and perhaps you are right to have the discussions before. However, I would like to meet my DGDs, even if it is only the once, although I know, at some level, this may not be a good idea. If we are to walk away, or be sent away, it is better to do so before I become emotionally attached.

Sir Vix - I agree that they may ask for a sum of money and that, like any blackmailer, LB will be out for more. However, one thing I am determined about is that all conversations concerning finances should go through DH. He will be rational, sensible and consistent, and I have total confidence in him to handle it as well as it can be handled. He also has clarity of vision. He says that we should pay the rent, but that is the extent of any contribution. As you say, if DD genuinely wants to do the course, she will do it anyway, and I do think that it would be good for her. If we help in that way, we will have done as much as I believe we should be expected to do, and possibly more than many parents would do. I entirely agree that LB hates me. He wants to make the whole family, but especially me, suffer as much as possible, but he wants to extract money first - the money he thinks he is due from my having pulled out of the previous property transaction. I don't have any illusions in that regard.

billy, ddraig and springy - thank you for your supportive messages.

Random - I have thought of registering an interest over the property which they bought partly with the 'loan' from us, but it would be deeply inflammatory and DH doesn't want to. The reality is that we do not expect that money to be repaid.

Sir Vix - as ever, you are extraordinarily accurate in your conclusions. DD1 actually said to DH that he hadn't done anything wrong, but that he hadn't done anything right. LB does hate us and nothing we do or say will change that. He will tolerate us whilst he thinks we may be financially useful. That is why I want DD to do the course, so that she might gain a different perspective, from meeting other people and being exposed to different points of view. I agree, to an extent, that the realisation that I can't change anything is liberating, once I have come to full acceptance. I am nearly there, but I have relapses.

Clover - thank you for your post. I do feel that I am in an abusive relationship, albeit indirectly. DD2 says, probably correctly, that LB, or both of them, have identified me as the 'weak link'. I used to act for women in DV relationships when I was a newly qualified barrister and, full of the confidence of youth, I could never understand why women would not only become embroiled in these relationships, but keep going back for more. Now, I do understand, all too well. And I never thought that I would be that person. I believed that I was strong - I guess I still need to believe that and to dig deep to gather up those inner resources - to stay strong and calm, as you advise.

mooberry - thank you for your support. Yes, it is disappointing not to be permitted to see DGD2 until she is nearly three months old (when DGD1, whom we still haven't met, will be over 20 months old). A large part of me does feel like walking away, to be honest, but the other part of me wants to go on the visit, kill or cure. I need closure, one way or the other. I have a busy February, lots happening, so am determined to focus on that and it's good that there are lots of things happening to keep my mind occupied.

SirVix - thank you for your further message and for the support.

Gutterton - thank you for your advice. To be fair, most of the money for the two properties has come from him. His grandparents gave him enough to buy the first house, which they renovated and sold at a profit. The second house was purchased mainly from his bursary - our contribution/'loan' was about 25%. I think that is what enrages him, makes him feel bitter and 'sold short'. He believes we are 'rich' and heartless for not helping a young family who need the cash, a narrative which DD1 has bought into. He paints his family as good, who care and who help, and ours as bad. We are being presented with this wonderful opportunity to have access to 'their' family and it is up to us to prove ourselves - at least that's how he sees it and probably DD too. A previous poster said that we were being set up to fail, and I believe that to be true. We could hand over our life savings and still be found wanting.

Grohn - thanks for your support. I love DD2 and DD3 with all my heart and I am determined that they will not lose out because of the problems with DD1, either financially or emotionally. Their love and protectiveness has shone through and I know that I am truly blessed. As they say, two out of three is a good result

Puzzling - you make some perceptive comments and ask some very pertinent questions. With regard to the financial contribution, DD1 said, just over a year ago, that they were 'scrimping and saving' and why wouldn't we just give them 'a leg up'. She was talking about doing the PGCE and I said that we would support her in that, as I thought it would help her to have a profession, where she could become financially independent. I didn't know about DGD1 then or that they were in a position to buy a second property. I assumed that LB would carry on from his PGCE to become a teacher and that we would give some help to the couple to progress. It's what many parents do and I still felt bad at pulling out of the original property transaction. DH feels - and I agree - that we shouldn't renege on this, or it will be more evidence that we are not to be trusted. DD needs to prove to LB that we are not the terrible parents which he has painted us to be - unlike LB's family, we have not welcomed him into the family and we make promises which we do not keep. Trust me, that is the narrative, and DD believes it. She was happy that we gave them the 'loan' for the property and agreed to help her with her PGCE, as we had proved ourselves enough for us to be worthy of contact and even being introduced to our DGDs. She would like a normal happy relationship, I am sure, but we need to 'earn' it, in LB's view, so she wants us to capitulate so that she is free to engage with us.

My relationship with my parents was very good, close and loving, although their relationship with each other was not. Also, my brother had a number of issues and caused a lot of heartbreak. There was an estrangement as, although my mother loved him deeply, she couldn't cope with him any more (he was 25 when he left). DM also had a lot of serious health issues. She wanted to know that he was alright but that was all, as she had reached the limits of her endurance. I saw her pain but I didn't understand it - until now. She died following a house fire (she had emphysema and inhaled smoke) and my DB took his own life 18 months later. Sorry if this is too much information and I'm not sure how relevant it is, but you asked about my relationship with my DP. I would say that they loved me, were very proud of me, and were more dependent on me than I was on them. But I loved them very much, my mother and I would speak every day, we had a deep bond, and I sometimes feel that I am turning into her.

I have lots of friends and interests, a very full life. I have just completed an MA and have signed up for a Creative Writing course. The next few months are pretty full, seeing friend, theatre, travelling etc. I get what you are saying though, that I need to let go, that they are adults and need to live their lives, for better or for worse. I know you are right and I am getting there, slowly but surely. I would go to a therapist if I thought I could find one who would help me. DH thinks it's a bad idea but DDs 2 and 3 think I should and that DH doesn't really understand mental health. Please feel free to PM me - that would be very kind.

Random - as ever, you make excellent points. A previous poster suggested just paying an equal sum of money to each DD and maybe there is some merit in that idea. That way there would be transparency and fairness and it's up to them how they spend it. If LB invested it in property, at least DD1 would be entitled to a share, as they are married. But then I suspect she wouldn't do the course and LB won't get a job and she will be even more trapped. I don't know.

I guess that trickling the money monthly will mean they maintain the relationship with you for the next 12 months for fear of losing money. I don't think DD1 will do the course though, I think it's a way of getting a bursary up front like LB did and using the money to buy more property. I expect that they will be very angry with you if you don't provide all the money up front.

What do you expect to gain by giving them more money OP? You have very recently given a large lump sum, what did you gain from doing that? And what did you lose from doing that?

I understand that you are well off and can afford to be giving away large sums without hardship but clearly it's not all about the money itself. I'm also confused as to why have mislabelled what was clearly a gift as a loan?

@Albinoni Oh your last post made me cry. You have endured such tradgedy in your life you really dont deserve this. Thank you for your honesty in sharing this with us all it was very brave. We are all thinking of you and so wish we could stop your suffering
I can see now why money may not be seen as such a big deal with you. You have seen that life is short and compared to human suffering and loss its only money. I really understand that.
When I did PGCE as a mature student ( married etc) I got a small bursary and student loan etc.
I am not sure if this has sll changed now, but after each module I had to get passed by my tutor with a sign off sheet before the next instalment was released?
So there was no way I would have had access to that money/ funding without staying on the course and passing each module.
This was over 10 years ago so it may have changed, but if this is still the case you could effectively do the same to support your daughter. As you release money to the institute as and when each bit if her course has been passed?
My parents are well off and after I divorced offered to assist me financially. I declined as I truly believe that they should enjoy their hard earned money while they can. I would never take their status as an opportunity for a easy life.
Your DD snd LB sound like they have had a really good start in life compared to other struggling couples I wonder if they realise how lucky they are.
I am glad you have got a full February to look forward to it sounds like you will need some light hearted joy in your life.
As regards counselling maybe you are putting it off/ not found the right one as you not mentally ready to go there yet and thats ok.
You may find your anger soon though so it may be a goos idea to look around when you feel ready for that. But for now enjoy life as much as you can, because you really deserve some time out x

A good clinical psychologist may help you to understand and then control the endless rumination which you are struggling with and reduce how it is affecting the entire family.

You are suffering from a living bereavement .

Such a long reply and at 5 am. You poor thing.

Responding to my part... honestly, none of us think we are that person. Part of the thrill ( so I've read) is the challenge of taking us down...I have no doubt that lb feels that with you, given your profession. I think the challenge of each response you send elates him, giving him energy to think of new and better ways to goad you again and again. You are locked in his drama, his adversary and he must best you. Every time he does, damages your daughters position in her relationship ( whether she knows it yet or not).

I want to be really clear on what I meant when I said stay strong. I think you may have thought I meant to put your strength into this battle, into resisting his attacks on you, into enduring this pain, into finding new approaches to break through to your dd, to advocate yourself to him in the face of his onslaught and change his behaviour towards you.

Nothing could be further from the truth. What I meant ( and it's really hard) is the strength to not respond. The strength to accept the loss of your dream and to live in reality, the strength to drop the idea that you can manage/ fix this if you just try hard enough, the strength to say 'I have been a victim of an emotional assault' without shame or self pity, the strength to cede control to your DH and dd2 3 for the sake of the best outcome for you all.

You set your boundary up in the thread. You are upset when the relationship seems dependent on money. That's a good line to hold. So, step back from it until your h sorts the money out and be strong with yourself to achieve that.

Finally, find the strength to allow your dd2 and 3 to lead you and guide you. Treasure those relationships in the context of this reality but without making it the focus or the elephant in the room. Guard strongly against any temptation to use them to offload on then ignoring their counsel. Let them see from your actions ( or non actions) that you are listening to them and following their advice - not just the bits you want and according to your own ideas.

I am so sorry this has happened to you.

5LC

I agree with staying strong and disengaging.

Their behaviour is despicable. I am sure LB twigged early on that you are wealthy and DD1 adored and he thought the journey to being given large sums of money would be easy.

They do not live near you, DD1 is not actually wanting a loving relationship with you it will at best a continuation of messages with they occasional photo. They will be too busy to visit, and you will only be allowed to meet for a fe hours if you go there. It's really cruel of them!!!

Don't wait for them to say they will need £1,300 per month for rent in Brighton you look at what accommodation for 2 would cost there and offer them that.

If you asked them "how much do you need for the money thing to be forgiven and forgotten" I suspect LB would name his price and it would be MANY times the original amount...

It is heartbreaking to read how much you are struggling but also you carry this false hope that handing over money and her completing a PCGE is going to make a difference.

They have told you so many lies - they were scrimping and save - by whose standards LB because they couldn't done put and buy everting from
M&S food? DH and I brought up 4DC on his salary of £22k, tax credits probably increased it to £30k gross equivalent but our mortgage was £700 per month. With his bursary and being rent free how could they have been struggling? It's a lie - scrimping and saving to buy a second property so LB never had to work to support his family.

Snog - I suppose what I gained was the knowledge that I had a 14 month old DGD and the chance of a relationship. We said it was a loan but we are not realistically expecting it to be repaid.

Minty - thank you for your supportive post. You sound like a wonderful daughter. I don't want to make it a pity party or be, as DD1 has said, 'melodramatic' but, because of the past, the thing I really fear is loss. My best friend also died a couple of years before my DM, aged 24, the week before we were due to go on holiday together. I have always feared, above all things, losing a child, but I didn't see this coming, and I know I have coped badly. Also, LB and DD terminated an earlier pregnancy, which she said was a terrible mistake. She came to me for emotional support, so I knew exactly when DGC1 was ended but not when DGC2 was born, which makes it all harder in a way. I wonder if they blame me in any way. However, I am having a good weekend, thank you - I went to the cinema yesterday and I am going to the theatre today.

Fretful - thanks for your advice.

5LC - you give very sound advice and an extremely accurate summing up of the position. I know I need to step back from all this and I think that you are correct that LB regards me as some sort of adversary. I will listen to DDs 2 and 3, who are very wise and supportive, and you are absolutely right that I should not offload onto them. I think they would think better of me if I sought counselling or other professional help, so I think I will research this again, after the weekend. I have looked up details on several occasions but, so far, I just haven't been able to bring myself to take the next step.

Random - I know you are right. They have deceived us. In a way, I wish I had walked away in September when they first told me about DGD1. I think I probably would have, at least for a while, but DH didn't want to. He does, however, accept that DD1 has behaved appallingly.

This thread is cathartic. Thank you everybody so much.

I have received some photos of the DGDs and DD. I have sent a positive, vanilla reply.

Random said above it will at best be a continuation of messages with the occasional photo
I agree. I also agree with you that as you say, your daughter may see you “making amends” as an opening to be able have an ongoing relationship with you again afterwards, but I feel there is no way that LB will allow this, unless he can milk more cash from you. He rules and he does not want you in their lives, he only wants as much money as he can get from you, and then you will be discarded. It seems that your DH thinks that calm reason will eventually resolve things, but it won’t.
Manipulative narcissists are very good at working out people’s vulnerabilities and exploiting them for personal gain. None of us here on the thread who have sadly experienced controlling relationships, ever imagined that we would be in that position, until we were- as you understand now. I would have thought I was a “strong” person, before it happened to me I believed that control only happened to weaker, more vulnerable people. I wouldn’t have imagined myself to ever be at risk. Now I understand that we are all vulnerable in some way, and men like this get their thrills from controlling someone who is strong, as it makes them feel powerful. You are intelligent, thoughtful, kind. You love your daughters very much and he can see that hanging the threat of no contact over you is incredibly effective, as it would be for most mothers. I imagine he will use this as another way to control your dd as time goes on, by using the threat of getting custody of their dds, and never letting her see them. We all have fears, or traumas, or sensitivities that can be manipulated by those experienced in manipulation. If you have grown up in a relatively normal family, without abuse, then you don’t grasp the total lack of boundaries these men have. You don’t see that someone will go to any lengths, have no moral code, no empathy. Calm reason is ineffective because this is not a reasonable person, or a reasonable situation.
There is still a suggestion of that in your posts, you are hoping that if you do something kind and generous, that you will then receive kindness and generosity in return, but that won’t happen. He will see your generosity as a weakness he can exploit. Rational argument, reasonable actions and discourse, all the normal ways of resolving quarrels or conflict within relationships, have no power here, because you are reasonable and fair, and he is not, he will always up the ante.

I thought that Gutterton made a good point above that any money you give, you are giving to him, and that she will be most in need of financial support when she leaves , rather than now, so factor that in. Keep as much control of any cash as you can and do not allow that to be manipulated. Hold firm that any money is to enable your dd to do her course and that alone. Keep a chunk of the money you want to give her in reserve for when she leaves, so that she and your dgds can get counselling, a home, support, as Gutterton said. Maybe just whack that into a separate savings account now, you could put a small monthly amount in for your Grandchildren.

Also think about how you might choose to proceed if you give these thousands and she doesn’t complete her course. He won’t allow her friends, or any sort of a social life, so I think doing this course may well be impossible for her. He could do it, because she was in the background, supporting him, but he will be a millstone around her neck rather than a support.

I am sorry to sound so negative, but your power will lie in having the measure of him, and using your wits and animal instincts, rather than hoping you can win him round. You will never win him round because he will always hate you.
Try and dampen your fear of losing your dd, and focus only on what may help her see him exposed for what he is.

The future need DD1 will have for money is why I think you should have a signed loan agreement with DD1 and LB and a charge against the house. Complete with interest terms to be paid on sale of the property.

If they ever divorce that means it is money that you can hand over straight to DD1 and reduces the value of the marital pot.

When you meet up with them it's the perfect opportunity for them to sign the loan agreement - just charge Bank of England base rate before you handover any more money.

You can even waffle on that if you are ever to sell the land you may be in a better financial position to write the debt off.

Pleas look out for your DD1 and DGD best long term financial interests, his parents loaned him money! You need to get through to them that although your may look affluent that you are not...

I mean the amount you have already loaned, not the amount to be given towards PGCE.

Please step away from being the lead contact and get your DH to respond for you both as a pair. These vanilla replies cost you and weaken you. They embolden them (lb) to keep going on their current course. This is the cycle of abuse the photos are the nice stage.

You can only change you is a cliche because it's true. Abuse stops by you saying 'enough' and walking away. You can't think clearly and do that while they are playing you in this way.

In response to your earlier reply I do think you should talk to dd2 3 but only if you can listen and act on their advice. By talking then going your own way anyway you render them powerless. They want you to seek counselling. Why not ask them to find someone for you.

You are clearly on high alert and your posts are like watching you caught in a net, tangling yourself tighter as you fight to escape. Please let the people around you who love you take the lead just for a bit, just while you recover yourself. You are being abused. It is not your fault, it is not ok. I find it interesting that he (they) gaslighted you to stop you seeing yourself as a victim. It's as if subconsciously they know that you accepting that reality and standing up for yourself is the biggest risk to their plan.

Albinoni
Lovely to hear that you have a busy , exiting February planned . Hopefully it will distract you from this agonising situation .

Everyone has given such good advice on here ,

LB sounds like he has a huge chip on his shoulder. DD ‘s BF is like this , he is convinced that we have been handed everything we have on a plate. ( we haven’t , we’ve worked for every penny and DD knows this - she witnessed a lot of it ) but she goes along with his narrative , they have rewritten history. It can make it more difficult to say no when you have the money ( and they know you have it ) , If you were on the breadline yourself you could just say “we don’t have it sorry.” But knowing LB he’d probably suggest you remortgage or take out a loan !

Do our DDs truly believe the lines they are being fed ? Are they actually brainwashed? , Or do they know deep down it’s not true but are having to go along with it for the sake of the relationship? Who knows?

I understand your need to feel you have done absolutely all you can to help DD and maybe if you do fund some accommodation for them while she is studying and then they STILL want more money that will be your “final straw “

I think it has to be a point you reach within yourself. People can tell you over and over that you are being abused, used, controlled but until you actually feel that yourself and realise nothing you do can change the situation it is pointless .
It is the same for you as it is for your DD .

I do understand why you want to visit them though, to see for yourself how things are , But of course he’ll have fully primed her to “behave “, he’ll be watching her carefully and she will be “toeing the party line” so it might be impossible to get a true picture .

It sounds like you’ve been through some really difficult times (not just this situation ) and I’m pleased you are considering getting some professional help . I think it will be really valuable . If nothing else it shows DD2 and 3 you are taking their advice .

I still can’t get over him/her/ them referring to your offer to pay for accommodation as a “gesture” ! To me a gesture is a nice bunch of flowers or a meal out , not the offer of 10s of 1000s of pounds . How dismissive!!

Hope you enjoyed the film last night and are looking forward to the theatre tonight . You enjoy yourself - don’t let LB spoil things even more for you As they say. the best revenge is a life well lived .

Xxx

I'm going to go against the grain here. Firstly, I'm so sorry for what you're going through; it's one of a mother's worst nightmares. I completely agree with everything you've said, but my only observation is about how it is said. You and your daughter seem to speak to each other in quite an officious way. Maybe trying to speak to her as a mother to her daughter would be better. I know the situation is difficult but I'd be bewildered receiving messages like that to/from mother/daughter. They feel so cold and full of anger on both sides. I just wondered if you're so focused on trying say the 'right' thing that you're losing sight of how businesslike it sounds. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear, and again I'm so sorry for what you're going through. I just wanted to give my perspective.