Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

We can chat when you come
First thing he says is that the door is not shut because he still wants the cash. This is top of his mind and he is still pursuing it.

but I feel as though I have covered this with you so many times and repeat myself ad nauseam without getting through to you. Hence why I though we were just moving forward.
Totally ignoring your points, patronising and arrogantly refusing dialogue.

You are right about what the letter says but nothing else. I'm not even going to address some of the things you have said.
Totally ignorant and degrading you to refuse dialogue.

We appreciated the money to help with the house and the promise of helping me with my course costs, that's a big deal to us and to be honest, it's the only way in which you have ever made a positive difference in our lives (not that I have started the course yet, if you have changed your mind again you need to tell us now, so we at least have a chance of making other arrangements).
There it all is laid out for you. He can’t help himself. The entitlement and the insults all in one paragraph. Classic abuser stance.

Portraying us like wicked money grabbers is very twisted, if that is what we are then God we are not very good at it. If we just wanted your money you would think we were all best friends.
His words as that is how he knows it is.

We felt grateful for your gesture and so opened up our family to you, tried to fix our relationship and involve you more in our lives. We have set a date and invited you to our home. We have taken all these steps, now the ball is in your court.
DARVO - classic abuser tactic (defend, attack, reverse victim and offender).

Please stop insulting us. That you insist on seeing everything in the most warped way where you are always a victim and we are always the villains is not conducive to us having the type of relationship you want.

Paranoid types will infer an insult from a semi colon. He is showing his own hand here where he is the victim and your are the villains.

PS I find it bewildering that you can say 'things can't go on as they are', we have taken all those steps to try and build up a semblance of a proper relationship. Things have not been on such a positive trajectory in years and you are bemoaning as if things have never been worse. It's melodramatic recounting the great tragedies that have befallen you in life, but it's not healthy this unhealthy victim narrative'.

That has caught him on the hop - he thought he was on the home straight galloping to the finish line to collect his cash.

LBut with all due respect @Gutterton you are speaking as though that is fact.

There is no argument that LB is a grade A thundercunt.

But there is also the possibility that DD is not so darling and is a participant in her mothers abuse.

Yes there is that possibility - and that’s why I asked OP earlier how DD was before she met LB and if she thought that she would have behaved this way with her previous long term boyfriend.

OP has described a loving daughter who even in the early days of her RS with LB took her mum away for a city break.

Good people can be paralysed, controlled, terrorised by brainwashing and fear by evil people such as LB. There are many survivors of DA on this thread who testify to that.

If OP knew that her DD was also a Thundercunt she would have been delighted that she had met her match and detached from causing chaos in the family.

I have suggested throughout that OP looks out for own emotional health first, that she prioritises her other RS with her DD2 and DD3 and her DH and that she plays the long game by looking beyond LB to keep lines of communication open for the day when she needs to be rescued.

The message can be summed up as “I very much want your cash, and I will use the remote possibility of contact with us as a carrot, while showing you the stick” .

Spot on SirVix - I think he is already using the stick to give Albinoni a beating.

The same emotional beating that he gave OPs vulnerable DD1 to submit in their RS when he isolated / alienated her from her uni house mates, long term friends, sisters, grandmother, mother and father - and society in general as well as removing her from hospital against medical advice.

Albinoni I'm another lurker coming out of the woodwork. I read your previous threads and have just finished this current one.

Your message was an honest and entirely reasonable one; the reply was 100% bullshit.

I can see how agonising this is for you. I know your DH doesn't want to do this but I would honestly walk away now, for a while, at least. LB is a truly vile individual and regardless of whether your DD is in a virtual hostage situation, or is a willing accomplice holding the begging-bowl, you do need to protect yourself. LB is trying all he can to pull the strings in your life too.

How much more of this hurt can you reasonably absorb? I would agree with others that your DH might become the point of contact for a time and you could have a period of NC for your own well-being and self-preservation .

The line about promising to help is the only positive contribution you've made.

Well that sums it up, the only thing they value from or of you is money. If the money stops flowing you have nothing to offer...

I've tried to catch the main parts of your story and didn't want to read and run. I have been the dd with the lb, my stomach aches with how a controlling relationship feels, feelings I had almost forgotten now I'm 5 years out, how cutting off people you love and need is less pain than dealing with your partner's relentless reaction, comments, deeds. I received a years free counselling after our split and it was true my biggest battle was my own mind and how to escape the trauma you build a duality where no one could have guessed at my real feelings. I feel for your dd, and my heart to you. My advice that this prelude is heading to is to advise you to try and see time differently, time will tell the truth for you and please never let go of your dd, the true her, it may take years it may take until your grandchildren are much older until there are cousins or something happens but it seems that your pain speaks of this undying bond. My mum is my mum again now, she endured so very much. Your honesty in your letter won't destroy your dd and you, but it will not be a fight (to be heard or empathised with) that you can win while she is with him. I'm so sorry for your angst, all this time, it will eventually change on its own and be better I have faith in that xxx

We can chat when you come the date of meeting keeps dangling and changing.Has it materialised yet?

we tried to involve you in our family more there is no involvement at all

tried to fix our relationship no such attempt at explaining why the nc happened.

OP, I remember your first threads about LB.

I’m not as eloquent as @Gutterton @SirVixofVixHall
and the other posters on your thread.

This letter is an insult, bunch of lies, twisted facts and demand dressed up very badly as attempt of reconcilliation.

You haven’t seen your DGD’s, only pictures and videos. No offence Op but they are strangers to you.

Please find good therapist.

Your “D”D1 is complicit in creating emotional terror with LB and have you as the hostage.

Hugs to you, unbearable situation for you. 💐

@Albinoni I don't even know you but when I read that message from your daughter I felt really bad for you imagining how you must be feeling to read such a heartless message when you have been upfront and honest and sent such a heartfelt message.

I think it is quite obvious from the message that they want your money. I think the message was quite vicious.

I personally think that you should not reply to that message, leave things as they are for the moment and see what comes next from them - let them initiate contact.

I said before on this thread that i thought you made a mistake offering money so readily as soon as they got back in touch as it was just history repeating itself but that is done now and you have offered the money. I think if you take back that offer then you will never hear from them again and never see your grandchildren however I also think that the same thing may happen if you give them the money. Make a decision with your DH as how much you are willing to help and draw a line under it. You were under the impression you were offering assistance for accommodation for a couple - not a family of 4. It would be reasonable to say that you cannot offer more than that but I don't imagine they will be happy with that.

You are understandably consumed by this but for the sake of your mental health, your relationships with your daughters and you marriage you need to take a step back from this. Get some counselling for yourself. Try to enjoy the happy relationships you have and the happy aspects of your life while you wait for some resolution to this even if that resolution is the end of the relationship with your daughter.

I do see how it could be that your daughter is under the influence of LB but I also think that she has been so unbelievably cruel to you and the rest of your family that this could be just the person that she is. I do not think that she is blameless in this and I think if you come to terms with that she won't be able to blackmail you in the same way.

Please look after yourself.

Devastating 😢😢

It is amazingly positive she still wants to see you - perhaps to leave the channels open to get your money.. but who cares, it's contact and that is hopeful.

Bash your feelings out here, op. You have a very supportive and knowledgeable set of posters here (unusual on MN around this subject) and we're all here for you.

But keep your feelings from them. You don't want to get paranoid as he is paranoid - he is a sick, sick man. If you want her you have to go through him. Which means going down not rising up. Do look at the difference between humiliation and humility. She is where she is, you can't call her out, he's too strong for her. As you have seen by the reply, she is thoroughly brainwashed. Try to go in to sit with her - you can hold your boundaries firmly and quietly, you're not selling your soul.

Who cares what he thinks of you anyway - he's a twerp half your age. Fuck him and his opinion as far as you are concerned.

Fwiw I did hesitate (very much) about posting what I did in the night. Its only because the situation is so serious that I did - normal rules don't apply, they really don't. I'm sorry for your tremendous turmoil and pain Albinoni ❤️

Perhaps apologise for the text, citing too much emotion etc. Find something to apologise for. It is a strength, not grovelling. It is to get on her page xx

@Albinoni, like others I really felt for you when I read that response. Unless, in real life, you present very differently from how you come across on here, I cannot imagine that you have done anything to justify that treatment. As a previous PP has said, you are so courteous and careful to reply to everyone - the problem isn't you.

I think it makes it so much harder that your husband wants to take a different approach to you. I genuinely believe that the best thing you could do (for you) now is to write back to your daughter, telling her that you love her, that your doors will always be open to her and DC whenever she needs, but that there will be no money forthcoming and then dropping contact. You cannot get her out of her relationship; only she can do that and she is clearly not ready to.

I agree with PPs that she did not write that text (or at least not all of it). The line about the positive contribution to "our" lives, is so very telling, when it sounds as though your DD had a very happy childhood and life until she met LB.

I really feel for you OP. It must feel as though you cannot win, but your DD has chosen her path and you still have two other DD, a DH and yourself to consider.

Significant problem is that there is no way of knowing if 1. she has seen your text and written the reply, 2. seen your text but written the reply in combination with LB, 3.seen your text but LB has written the reply , or 4. Not seen the text, LB has replied.
I think 2 or 3 the most likely, but you may have a better idea OP ? As you know how she expresses things .
It does seem clear that LB is trying to threaten you with consequences for any drawing back on financial “help”, and that he is only keeping communication open to ensure a safe passage for the cash.
I believe that if you cease to be financially useful, all contact will immediately cease on some ridiculous premise.

Have any if her old friends tried to contact her ? I know if she was my friend I would be knocking on her door.

"I am so sad/sorry you feel that way" is a very apt non-apology.

You can say how much you do wish to move forward and what do they feel that you and DH can "contribute" as positive things moving forward? That you are very much looking forward to spending time with them when you go to visit and being able to build a relationship with them as a family unit.

See what LB comes back with anything general like "support" - you can ask "please elaborate, do you mean us providing childcare, or listening to problems and providing a sounding board"?

It will be be revealing what LB says he wants, after he cannot risk saying it's just money...

Yes it is a non-apology Random - and it's seen as such. Petrol on flames imo esp as they're so sensitive.

I think she wrote that text. He's primed her for years and he can leave her to run on her own now, pushing the party line - in fact she's probably better at it than him now. She is thoroughly in there, up to her neck now. (They remind me of JWs, she with her babies 😔.)

You can say "I'm sorry I've hurt you". This is technically true as at some point in her life you've hurt her - not letting her go to a party /telling her off for not tidying her room /etc. It gets her in side. She's in a cult, remember, incapable of seeing any other side than the one stuffed into her brain by psycho.

*It gets her onside

OP I've read your posts and they are heartbreaking.
But let's be honest, if you were even a small way as LB intimates would anyone want your money? With all your unreasonable behaviour?
There's the answer. This is all a narrative that they have created.
Try and concentrate on the rest of your family for a while and keep the door open as others suggest.
I cannot believe the brass neck of these two....

@Albinoni Wow I posted earlier on the thread but am devestated for you. It really is a heartbreaking game with no winners here. I am so surprised how quickly it has escalated.
You were right to message. It gave you some power and rightly so. The quote about boundaries is that when you demonstrate them the people you had none with are the ones that get most upset when you finally put them up.
Keep you boundaries super firm now.
The despicable wordy cold reply made my blood go cold. It reeks of emotional blackmail manipulation and financial abuse.
In a way I am glad he showed his colours this way. Had you had this difficult conversation face to face I can only imagine the hurt and drama, crushed and away from home.
Now you have time to think what is really best for all concerned.
They want the money, feel it is their god given right and either way have the upper hand.
If it was me I would say to DD it has got out of hand you need to speak to her alone as it will be her undertaking the course. Its non negotiable but you want some clear answers before you make a decision, that it is affecting your peace of mind.
If he is that money grabbing it may be one one way to get a chance to propely listen to each other.
Its a rock and a hard place.
Even she must seem how wrong and calculating this is now??
Please please get some help with this now. Is there a grandparents advocacy group anywhere? Is there anyway you can get real life support? ( I appreciate you have full backing of your family, but they are emotionally involved too?)
For what its worth being nice and accomodating, while a fabulous trait, does leave you open to abuse and manipulation.
You can still be loving but firm. Draw your line and say enough. Remind her that partnerships/ marriages can fail but you will always be her parents so you will be acting in HER best interests now, and that involves a face to face chat with her only.
That will wind him up while sending a clear message that you, your DH and her sisters are a united front.
Sending so much strength and peace to you ladt

I’m completely and utterly stunned that this pair have wangled enough money out of both sets of family to buy not one but TWO houses without ever having had a proper job between the and currently living in benefits.

And as for both the houses being in his name only, how on EARTH dis time let him get away with that, on your dollar? 😱🤯

I’m glad you have reconciled with your DD and are getting to know your GFC (for now at least) it if I were you I’d be cynical and rather upset that it’s only come on the back of them asking for money. And getting it.

So sorry to read about this situation OP. Fwiw I think you did the right thing in sending the letter. The tone of this: financial support, which is no basis for a relationship, that I have an abundance of love to give but that should be enough, that my parents were unable to help me financially, but that I loved them with all my heart, as they loved me, and that I loved her very much.

Is much kinder than the reply. Particularly the part that says money is all you have given.

As others have said, I would ask your DH to take over all communication now to stop any further upset to you and to show that you are a solid pair I think their approach has an element of playing you off against each other to it.

I would try to separate the issue of seeing dd and the children completely. You want to meet them but not you don't want to meet them in exchange for cash. So let dh take the lead ...say that you don't want to talk money as part of the visit so if they can let you know what they have in mind and you will let them know first. That way you'll know any meetings are for the right reasons. Surely dh can see that it's only reasonable to agree how much and for you both to discuss it together and come to a decision away from them...not on the hop, in an emotional situation, at their home and under pressure. It's a classic pressure sales move.

💐

Forgot to make clear that I'm only talking about sending more money because you've said that it's what dh wants to do.

Another lurker coming out of the woodwork.

Op you really need to walk away, get professional help - you desperately need it.
You life and your families life seems utterly blighted by this pair.
You will (hopefully) have other grandchildren via your other daughters who must be in despair at the way you are getting sucked into their nasty games.
If you have to pay £40k to see your grandchildren once, and you accept that, then pay up.

Just please remember your other dds and what they must be thinking about you, you are behaving like an addict, not a rational adult - please, please get professional support in real life to get you away from these toxic duo.
Your dd1 might be a victim in this, but you can't rescue her, she has to want to leave and you throwing crazy amounts of money at her to enable her to stay with him is madness.

Albinoni It might help you to start to read this thread again from the beginning - it will help you see how your thinking has developed and what advice has been given over the past two months......some of it may resonate now more than it did then at the time.

Morning Albinoni, hope you were able to sleep ok last night, It might be a good idea to step away from the thread for a couple of days. If you have time go for a lovely long walk and get yourself some headspace. Sending you hugs 💐

Good morning billy and all of the other wonderful posters who helped me such a lot yesterday, including some new posters. I have considered them all carefully and am so grateful, but I won't reply to each one this time, if you don't mind, as I am a bit drained after yesterday.

I had a long call with DD2 yesterday as she rang and immediately knew something was wrong. She is very supportive but gets frustrated that I allow myself to be 'abused' as she sees it. She doesn't think I should visit, as it will be bad for my MH. How upsetting will it be when DGD1 is hiding from us, reinforcing LB's views that even she can see what a bad lot we are . DD2 said she thought I was right to send the message and to stick to my boundaries. She says she thinks I almost get there but then back down and apologise, but if I apologise this time she will never speak to me again! I am seeing DD3 for lunch today, who I am sure will be equally supportive, although I don't want to waste too much precious time talking about DD1.

On balance, I think it was the right thing to do, to send the message, as it has driven certain truths home, which other posters have also pointed out. First, as Springy said, she is not the same person as she was and I need to let go of our previous relationship. In particular, I need to accept that any relationships are through him. He is the gatekeeper to my DD. She doesn't have any independent relationships, everything is we and us to the exclusion of anyone else.

Second, that although DD may want a relationship, it is at least partially dependent upon financial support being forthcoming. And they know that I know this, protest as they will. Upon reflection, the main thrust of the message was what we can do for them, not what they can do for anyone else.

Third, that I need to step back and not make any emotional demands at a time when she has so many other demands on her. I need to get on with the rest of my life and enjoy the positives. I need to take a long term view of the situation. It is what it is and I need to learn to live with it.

Thank you!