Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

Callmeadoctor perhaps you should reread OP's comments. Her DH is fully involved and aware.

Morning Albinoni . Hope you are ok .

Thank you for the flowers . I’m on a mission to work out how to reciprocate!

My brother suggested a private detective at one point but, like you, I couldn’t have done it as it seemed a step too far and a massive invasion of her privacy .

The “cult of one” description is perfect isn’t it ? We had all the “us against the world” stuff too.

I understand what you say about almost preferring no relationship than the” half relationship and uncertainty”.

We are at the no relationship point and this is partly because we couldn’t cope with the alternative BUT also there were no GC involved and our DD and BF didn’t just passively cut us off- they started actively trying to cause real problems for the whole family so it was less difficult for us in some ways . Still completely heartbreaking though .

I’m pleased you are not worried about LB being physically abusive. You would hope that his parents would notice if anything like that was happening anyway . I do wonder though if his parents are somewhat wary of “rocking the boat” with him as they have seen the way you have been treated and don’t want to risk that happening to them. I can’t imagine he was an easy child to raise . They are probably grateful he’s got a lovey DW and DDs .

You are doing so well keeping those lines of communication open and playing the long game. Hope it’s not taking too much of a toll on you all.
Xxx

Thanks everyone. Sorry not to have replied a bit sooner but feeling a bit calmer, a bit subdued, and a bit detached today.

Random - as ever, you make some good points. We have received more messages saying that they are going to visit the place they have chosen to live, in June, to try to find a home, and that it will be great for the DDs as it is by the sea. No mention of money yet, but I see where this is going. I haven't responded yet, but it wasn't a message that needed a response. We will ensure that the other DDs do not miss out.

springy - I think JC has excellent advice but he can only give advice, which is really useful, he can't sort out individual problems although he can give you a steer in the right direction. I am very grateful for the recommendation and for your support and clarity of thinking.

SirVix - your post resonates strongly with me. Today I just want to send her a message saying exactly how I feel - that you have no love or respect for me, that you married and did not tell me, moved house and did not tell me your address, had a child and did not tell me. How can we pretend this never happened? How do we ever recover from this? I wasn't a monster, I wasn't abusive, I am sure I wasn't the best but I don't think I was the worst. I am sure I got things wrong, but I always loved you. Why would you treat me like this? I don't want to 'buy' my granddaughters, they are neither a privilege nor a commodity, but a precious gift, a gift which you apparently don't want to share with your family because either you believe we are not worthy to be around them, or LB believes that, and you accept it and implement it, knowing what pain you bring to those who love you. It's an approach of you can look but not touch and it is very hard to deal with sometimes.

In answer to your question, I do think that DD feels that LB is sensitive and special and that we have all been unkind to him and not welcomed him as a son. Or at least she did, I don't know about now. That's the problem. I have seen so little of her over the last few years, that I feel I don't know her at all.

Gutterton - thank you for more brilliant advice. The thing is, DD says she is happy, clearly loves her family including LB. I just feel surplus to requirements and that it is better for my mental health and that of my family to walk away now. I can't stand it any more. I would walk away - at least for a while - if it were not for DH, who wants to proceed differently. If I were to react as I want to, it would prevent him from having a relationship with DD and the DGDs, which wouldn't be fair to him. I did suggest, a few weeks ago, that he should go on the visit alone but he didn't want to and said what sort of message would it send?

Cleo - we are going to change our wills along the lines you suggest.

Doctor - all decisions are joint with DH.

Grohn - thank you so, so much for your lovely, supportive message. LB's parents have described him to DD as 'difficult', so you may well be right, that they don't want to 'rock the boat'. I expect they are safe though, not least because they provide support and childcare when required. I don't know yet if we will meet them. I was thinking of messaging LB to invite them - if he doesn't respond, I have a reason to be angry. I feel almost as though I am looking to pick a fight in order to let the lid off the pressure cooker. I know it's not a good idea but I am so close to it today. How are you feeling?

Albinoni I expect that you will get a request to pay for their travel costs, hotel stay and other expenses to view properties.....

I totally understand your rage and I can see how it is increasing as you have no where to put it or resolve it.

You have to been treated shockingly and continue to be so.

Is it two communications now that you have sent stating your disappointment since she told you about DGD? How did they respond to those? Were they just ignored or did they engage/respond and stand their ground or apologise?

I totally understand your need to want to keep a distance as this situation is intolerable. Each communication is a punch in the guts. You have been grievously hurt and need time to heal and recover but are still exposed and triggered daily by the texts/emails. And I do believe they are a deliberate emotional campaign instigated by him. Most DDs wouldn’t send so many texts and at the same time refuse / delay a physical visit.

That’s why I have suggested not to put yourself through the charade, turmoil, humiliation of the visit (if it ever happens) and to keep communications open but detached. You might want to somehow manage the texts/emails - filter them to a folder and only open twice a week? Even ask someone else to open them and answer them (vanilla) for you to give yourself a break - they can tell you if there is anything important.

I think that you need to decide if you hold your DD responsible for all of the deep hurt and anger you (rightly) have for the situation. If you do - then send the letter and walk away. If you believe that she wouldn’t have behaved like this if she was with her previous boyfriend so you can attribute all of this 100% to LB - then be careful where you direct your hurt and anger. All of the cult stuff show how good people can behave badly in the presence of evil.

I expect that you will get a request to pay for their travel costs, hotel stay and other expenses to view properties..... all top notch of course!

They would rather live at your expense in a nice sea-front property than more sensibly budgeted/located uni accommodation. Also it will be so difficult using public transport with a double-buggy that they will need (and you to pay for) a car to get about.

There will be no end of "incidentals" for you to pay for if you let them.

Gutterton - I was so upset when she told me and she seemed contrite on the telephone, didn't try to justify it, but didn't really come up with a reason. It was just a case of saying that LB's parents said they should have told us and that I shouldn't think of it. Nothing in writing save that horrible, heart wrenching letter which I quoted.

I have said, in one text ,message that I am a bit anxious about the trip so I expect you are too. In another text I said why didn't you tell me about DGD1, you said it was because you were protecting her from us, but you know we would never do anything to hurt them, don't you? Both messages were ignored. I feel so hurt and disrespected, just discarded like a piece of old rubbish.

I am generally a strong person, or at least I like to think so, but this has nearly broken me. But for DH, I honestly wouldn't want to be involved any more. There is nothing in it for me but pain and heartbreak

Gutterton - I feel sick and anxious when I receive a message from her. I postpone opening the messages, but I sort of dread it. There will be pictures of the DGDs to draw me in, but it doesn't seem natural. it all seems as though I am being fed some bait to draw me back in. I wish I could just detach, as the rest of the family have seemingly been able to, although I know they are very hurt and the skin they have grown is very thin. I don't understand how she can have DDs of her own and love them so much, as she obviously does, and not realise that I love her in the same way. So why does she hurt us so much.

Yes that’s horrific that they have totally ignored your texts about your hurt - not capable of even stooping to an acknowledgement, never mind an explanation or God forbid an apology.......but still oiling you up for money.

Maybe this is your only moment of power - ie before you have agreed to hand over any cash. They should be dancing to your tune right now - because you know once he has the cash he will slam down the shutters for any crazy reason.

Maybe you should call the shots whilst you can - ask your DD to meet with you alone?

I remember your posts from years ago and am sorry to read the way things have developed.

I would have to walk away now. What makes it so obvious they are leading you a merry dance and using you financially is she STILL hasnt allowed you to meet the children. When you have your baby its exciting to let your family come see your baby and I feel the fact you missed the first birth would make her even more excited for you to come see the second child as a newborn and just to have you near her in her time of need when she was vulnerable after her birth.

They are using you for money. This is completely toxic to you and is testing you apart and all consuming. It's very sad your husband cant see it and see what they are doing to you. I think walking away is the only thing that will make them realise you will no longer allow them to control and manipulate you. They need to grow up and stand on their own feet they are parents.

*testing you apart

Just bite the bullet and get DH to ring her.

"We haven't talked about how much we're able to help you out with. Well it's of course only the same as what your sisters have had which is £x per month for the academic year. Obviously we have also already loaned you £y that they haven't had either"

See what happens. If it kicks off because it isn't "enough" then you know to walk away...

Effectively she's already had all/most of what DD2 and DD3 have had in the "loan" that they will never repay you....

If you don't have the £ conversation then it will be "you said you would pay the rent and we've signed the lease".

However much you give them ensure it is per month and only once the course commences.

I think he reads all your messages and constructs the responses. I think it is possible that your dd has not even seen some of them.
I cried reading that paragraph of what you would like to say to her. I know in your position I would feel the same. The truth is powerful, I do believe that, there is strength in truth. If it gets to the point where you feel none of her interactions with you are genuine, that she is simply manipulating you for money, then that would be the time that personally, I would step back, and tell her what you have said here.

You have very obviously been a loving and supportive mother, you really, really don’t deserve this. This is not of your making, it is your dd making poor decisions, under the influence of an evil man.

Thank you for your replies.

I have sent a message. I had to, setting out my feelings, although I think it was loving - it was certainly intended to be. But I had to try to get some honesty and openness into the relationship.

I said were we going to have a discussion when we met or before, have some mother/daughter time and sort things out. I said that I wanted to have the same loving relationship with her which I had with my mother and have with her sisters. I said I loved her but how hurt I was that she ghosted us, got married without telling us, moved without giving us her address, and was 'beyond devastated' at not knowing of her child, who looked adorable but I felt no connection with, as I had never met her. Also, that she didn't seem very keen for us to meet DGD2 and that it was a long way to travel to be tolerated.

I said I wasn't being confrontational, but I can't go on as we are and that the letter they sent with the photos says that they didn't want anything to do with us, but they changed their minds because we had offered financial support. I said that the clear inference was that the relationship is dependent upon financial support, which is no basis for a relationship, that I have an abundance of love to give but that should be enough, that my parents were unable to help me financially, but that I loved them with all my heart, as they loved me, and that I loved her very much.

Maybe I shouldn't have sent it, but I feel better for having done so. We shall see.....

Whether you DD knows it or not, this is really shaping up to be a power struggle between you & LB. He has the grandchildren; you have the money. It’s like a hostage negotiation - do you arrange the money first...in which case you might not ever get to see your DD & the DGDs? Or do you hold off in agreeing the finances...in which case LB might use this as “proof” that you should be cut off again.

I’m sure he thinks he holds all the cards.

Do you think LB would agree to DD meeting you and your DH alone if you phrased it in such a way that “you are aware that LB is not planning to use his PGCE and would like to speak to her directly and alone to see what her intentions are before agreeing financial support”. The lure of the money might be enough to get him to agree. However it does sound like she is still completely in thrall of him so may not make a difference anyway.

OP I have read all your threads and cannot imagine the emotional turmoil this is causing you. You have always sounded like an excellent mother - loving, supportive and non judgemental. Your DD must be completely brainwashed by him to see it any other way. I can understand why you would want to walk away - it must be so painful for you.

Wishing you strength to get through this.

Cross post - I just saw you sent a message to her. It sounds like a fair interpretation of your feelings without explicitly blaming LB. I hope you get the reply you want. And some sleep tonight!

I think that the tone of your message is honest and loving. I am glad that it has given you some emotional release.

I expect that they will behave as they have always done and you will get ignored - although it will be interesting to see what he does next in pursuing the cash. Might well be stale mate for a while.

Your DD may never even see this text. She might not have seen others. He likely monitors everything.

Do you know if/when she is ever apart from him? Does she take children out to the park? If you knew her movements you could call her when she is alone.

OP - I think Gutterton is spot on about you being triggered constantly by these - daily or almost? - texts and calls and that some space would really help you. I'm struck by what you say about your own feelings about wanting to walk away for a time and that it is your DH who is the one who wants to keep communications open. Would a solution therefore be to let him take over all communications with DD for a time? He can receive and respond to these texts and give you a break. Perhaps you could decide on a time say once a week when he shows you her texts and updates you, and in between those times you don't discuss it. That might give you some space. He needs to be doing his share of the emotional lifting in this situation, not just asking you to shoulder the burden. This line of communication you've opened, telling your DD honestly how hurt you are may be a good step towards a new arrangement.

I really think there's value in thinking about how you and DH are working together to deal with this. It doesn't sound like you are quite on the same page, or that he's not seeing the depth of your distress if he expects you to keep dealing with this onslaught of texts etc. Even a month of a new arrangement may help you to set this burden aside for a stretch of time. Apologies if I've got it wrong and DD is texting the both of you. Even if that is the case, my point about allowing your DH to take over the communications for a while still stands.

I know I've said it before but I would so strongly recommend finding a skilled and experienced therapist to help you work through some of this. Please consider it. Sending you love and strength.

That is very brave of you Albinoni.
The truth is powerful.
At some point she has to choose. To see what she is going along with, to see how terribly you have been treated, to see LB for what he is -a sad, inadequate, petty bully.
Or to keep her eyes closed and bring her daughters up with this nightmare of a man.
There really is strength in stating your feelings and position truthfully, withdrawing, and accepting that it might take time for things to change.
You have been strong, and strength is what she needs to see, and needs to feel.
This is the Winter of things, you have sown the seeds, and at some point in the future, the shoots will push through.

Albinoni Your love for your daughter shines through in that message.
I hope you feel some of the pressure that was building up in you has been released.

I don’t think things could have carried on as they were , the cost to your mental health was becoming too high .

Maybe turn your phone off for tonight so you are not constantly checking for a response.

I, too , wonder if she will actually ever see that message. I truly hope she does.

Thinking of you and hope you manage to get sleep.
xxx

I actually think now that you should just let your husband do all of the communication (particularly about the finance). Better that you remain separate.

I wonder if your DH has any idea what sort of character your DD is married to?

Most people are not up to speed on the shocking details and dark realities of domestic abuse, coercive control and personality disorders.

You have mentioned a few times that LB hasn’t been physical - but does your DH appreciate the 24/7 trauma of being emotionally terrorised, socially isolated and the mental injury this leaves?

I sense that he isn’t informed and assumes you are over emotional and over reacting. He needs to hear it from the experts - the professionals, the women who have lived it. He needs to know that your DD is more or less a prisoner and that the this will escalate.

I'm sorry Albinoni, I think the letter was a mistake.

Normal rules don't apply in situations like this - in a normal relationship where there's a falling out you each say your piece and bash out a middle ground. This isn't a normal situation and love doesn't win out. You're dealing with a very disordered and frightening individual who has your daughter entirely in his power (at the moment). If logic and love were the keys to unlock this then they would have unlocked it years ago - it's too late for that.

It isn't the equal relationship we expect to have with our adult children. They have all the cards and you have none in a situation like this. Any appeal to their humanity will backfire imo because they are (or he is, with her entirely in his thrall) very very invested in painting you as the bad guy, dehumanising you. Any show of humanity or appeal will inflame him, therefore her, imo. You haven't directly accused them but there is implied criticism - or that's all that will be heard.

Very specific skills are needed in situations like this - as detailed by Coleman. She's no longer the girl /young woman you knew, she left that girl behind in the time you've been apart. You have to accept her on her terms and can't appeal to, or refer to, the old relationship and the way you routinely related - that relationship is gone.

The ballpark with them is you behave yourself and you will be rewarded, if you misbehave you will be punished. That's how it is with them. As outlandish and devastating and horrifying as that is, that's how it is .

I know a few people who are going through what you're going through with their adult children - whatever way they look at it they're the losers because the adult child holds all the cards. It's a hard road for the parent : the old relationship is dead. It's not called a living bereavement for nothing.

There's a difference between humility and humiliating. They want to humiliate you (or he does etc) because of his own fucked up and frightening reasons. He's brainwashed her, I mean she is properly under his spell - it's not a small thing, it's actually happened and can't unhappen. She hand on heart believes what he believes.

If you want a relationship with them you have to play by their rules in how you conduct yourself - for now. Which is an act of humility not humiliation: your girl is in the full grip of a demented person and has built her full life with him, leaving behind her old life. They demand you obey them and that's what you have to do - for now. (Minus giving them all your money of course!) You have to be not say : be the loving mum who'll sit with her beloved child in the equivalent of a crack den

I hope the letter doesn't backfire too much but I do think it may derail the reconciliation - for now. Its hard to let the old relationship die and have no claims on it.

I've been very tough. It's such a tough situation, inhumanly hard. Imo it needs tough strategies.

You mentioned you'd rather bail out - I don't blame you! - and there's a book called "Done With the Crying" which might help.

Much love.