Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

When are you expected to part with the money? Before or after the meeting?

I am confused tbh, when doing a PGCE don't you get funding?

Certainly if low income you can apply for help with childcare costs, they have a mortgage free home they can rent out.

I am at a loss as to exactly what funding they need???

LB goes out to work, DC go to childcare, DD1 gets funding to PGCE as it's not on parental contribution anymore but her and LB income. It all sounds like a fast one to buy get another house...

Albinoni
I’ve just read your latest update and would like to thank you again for starting this thread and for continuing to post on it and for being so honest . You say it is helping you enormously , well it’s helping me enormously too.

I agree that Gutterton’s post said it all really and their advice is spot on.

I’m sorry that thinking of the lovely times you had with your DD upset you . It’s hard to look back at what was and compare it to horrendous situation that is now . I found a Mother’s Day card from 2 years ago from my DD with the most lovely hand written message to me the other day . Last mother’s day I heard absolutely nothing from her :-(

I think it is sometimes easier when you are being totally blanked as these messages , constant or intermittent, are like reopening the wound over and over again. It’ll will never heal while that is happening.

You asked what I would do if DD came back to us and I honestly don’t know the answer. I used to long for that to happen .But she ,albeit influenced by her BF , has deeply and deliberately hurt those who love her. I try the keep in mind that she is a victim in this but some of what she has done and said have had the sole aim of destroying us . I’m terrified of opening myself and the rest of my family up to this again . It has taken a massive toll on us all.

It feels from reading your post today that you are feeling a little stronger ( hope I’m right ) , and more able to take control of the situation.

You really do have lots of good things in your life . You have DD2and3 so hopefully you will get your chance to be an a
grandma and you know, you may appreciate it even more ( if that is possible ) when it happens.

I certainly cherish the time I spend with my son now more than ever before all this happened to us .

I also really understand the nightmares you are having imagining the meeting with the GDG s . Having LB looking on gloatingly waiting for any “wrong “ move on your part .
You don’t have to do it until you are ready emotionally, maybe push back a little on this , regain some more of that control that you sound like you are beginning find again. Do it on your terms.

Sending love and positive thoughts . I’d send you flowers by the dozen if I could but I don’t know how !!

Xxxx

It seems like you won’t/don’t have much control over where (& how much!) the money is spent regardless. It was the same with my parents, they were so kind and so generous but they kept trying to control how the money they kept giving was spent which just made the emotional blackmail and turmoil of it worse.

If you lay it out to each how much they have then it’s up to them. Your DD1 is married now, she is, as others have pointed out is an adult and is making her own decisions (even if they are LB influenced). All you can do is be there for her in the future if anything happens - she is married so hopefully half of the properties would be protected as a martial asset anyway.

Sending a big hug, you are such a good mum, and don’t forget it. 💐

I suspect that the daily photos are part of his campaign to emotionally tie you in so he can wound and blackmail you.

I agree that he will be gloating, yanking your emotional chain face to face when you go to visit as he is doing this already re the DGDs via text. He is a v highly skilled manipulator.

He wants to poke you so that you get upset (hurt) and goad you (angry). I can see him getting his parents round to show you loads of photos DGDs and all their milestones that they were part of but you are excluded from.

How much will that hurt you?
How could anyone with a heart endure that with a smile on their face?
Why put yourself through that?

They are still excluding you now with DGD 2. It is absolutely ridiculous and deliberate that you won’t see her as a new born.

You have to decide if you are going to let them do this to you?

I would compartmentalise - separate out three things:

1. Your DD1 is in an abusive RS with a v dangerous man. You can’t intervene, control or cure this. Accept and adapt.

1. This is causing you immense emotional torture. You can control this (not cure it). Treat this as a chronic illness. Seek out the best expert to support you through this. Find habits to emotionally protect yourself and build the resilience that you need to be able to resist being triggered - (daily photos?might need to think how to manage these?) - so that you are not playing into his hands and inadvertently enabling his abuse. Accept that this is an exceptionally difficult long term situation. Those emotional waves of grief just need to get smaller and less frequent over time. I fear that the DGDs has whipped this right up again and will get more and more intolerable the more involved you become. So maybe LB has inadvertently given you a gift? Some time and space to decide how far (if at all) you are going to walk in to his emotional rollercoaster trap.

1. The money situation is his weapon and his fuel. But YOU have total control here. You don’t need to make any decisions or commitments on that anytime soon. I would hold that power - keep your powder dry etc.

I would not muddy my head with the money stuff for now - kick it into the long grass. If they ask say your financial situation won’t be clarified until June and then just keep batting it away when June comes to October etc if that suits.

Prioritise working on your own emotional self and once that is settled and strong you will have clarity as to what is the right thing to do with with respect to money. Currently the money is causing FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) which are totally the worst emotions to make decisions upon.

Random Mess I think the money situation is roughly as follows (hard to keep up as v complex).

Sounds like he bought a house with a £35K gift from his GPs. This is their mortgage free home.

He then bought an additional house - a renovation project with a loan from his parents. He has sold this and paid back his parents loan + % profit.

He has rolled the profits from house renno 2 into house renno 3 and this is where Albinoni has given him a “loan” (not clear idea if there are T&Cs). This is I assume mortgage free (as they are both unemployed) and is being rented out.

If they move for the year for the DD1 to do the PGCE - they want Albi to pay the rent but have chosen not to rent out their family home - property 1. Wonder if that’s because they have no intention of completing the course (another pregnancy, sick leave?) once they have secured the £26k tax free govt bursary and Albis cash (£40k) for rent/books/childcare?

DD1 can also claim more money on top of the bursary for being a parent doing the PGCE.

They could also have rental income from two mortgage free properties for the PGCE year if they had chosen to rent out their home rather than leave it empty. So it looks like they will “only” have the rental income from one mortgage free property.

Maybe they have calculated that they don’t need to rent out their home as they will be quids in with £26k tax free bursary (+ extra for being a parent), rental income from one house (£10k?) and Albi stumping up £40k for rent, books, childcare for a year in Brighton.

Neither of them have ever worked despite being v highly educated. Not sure if they have been claiming benefits for the 4 years since they finished university.

He has recently done the PGCE. His bursary (he may have got the scholarship) which for his STEM subject would up his award to £34 tax free + extra for being a parent. Sounds like he has taken this government bursary but chosen not to work.

I feel very sorry for your desperate situation. You have had lots of good advice here but there are two other things which come to mind:
When your DD eventually has enough of LB and wants to leave, he may well become violent. Abusive men tend to behave much worse when their partner leaves them so think long term in case that happens.
Secondly, you have put lots of details on here which could be outing. I would be wary in case either of them see this thread.

Gutterton that was my kind of understanding but if you are getting a bursary of £26k I can't quite understand why you need any other financial support... a MW job only pays £17k per year...

Albinoni you can ask MNHQ to edit specific details (locations etc) if you are concerned about outing but want to continue support through this thread. Or it can be moved to “another place” on the website where you can continue to post and get replies but is not as visible - they will tell you where it is

Thank you. I have asked MNHQ to delete one of my posts which was potentially identifying and have requested that the thread be hidden or moved to a less visible place.

I have found the thread incredibly helpful and some other posters say they have also found it helpful, so I don't want to lose it, but of course I don't want it to cause any upset.

That’s very sensible, do you feel your thoughts have changed since starting the thread

Laundry - the only thing we have discussed is paying the rent when they move, which I would propose to pay direct to the agent when they find a tenancy, which won't be until the summer. However, I can't help worrying that they will be wanting something sooner.

Random, yes you do get funding so, as you say, they really ought to be able to manage, but we don't mind paying the rent as a good will gesture and because we previously said that we would (admittedly when we didn't know about the DGDs).

Grohn, thank you so much for your lovely post and for the intended flowers! I am feeling better thanks and this thread is really helping me to focus, as well as being a safe place to express my feelings rather than bottling them up. I totally understand your concern at exposing yourself to the risk of further hurt by your DD who has 'deeply and deliberately' set out to cause harm to her family. It is so hard to come to terms with, isn't it, when someone you love so much can deliberately seek to harm you? My view, for what it is worth, is that we need to forgive in order to heal ourselves, or the ensuing bitterness will corrode all the good things in our lives.

Delph - many thanks for your kind words. DD2 gave me a big hug yesterday and said I was a wonderful mother, which made my heart sing.

Gutterton - Thank you for your wonderful advice and for the time you have devoted to this thread. I can't tell you how grateful I am. How did you get to be so wise?

Ross - I have now asked for a few more posts to be deleted, which refer to places or personal details. However, the reality of the situation is that if LB or DD did come across the thread, they would know that it was about them. I would have to delete virtually the whole thread for them not to be aware. I would hope that, in the event that DD did come across it, she would become aware of the depth of my love and concern for her.

billy - yes, I do think that my feelings and thoughts have become clearer since starting the thread. I feel better again today, although I won't delude myself that another wave might be about to crash over me. I am wondering if I am feeling better because I haven't heard from DD1 since the weekend, so nothing to angst over, just get on with my life.

I guess I would only be offering the rent for what you thought you would be paying - so for a studio or 1 bed.

At least if it all kicks off then you know for sure where you stand.

It's utterly ridiculous that they are asking for money that they don't actually need. If they rent a family home then they should absolutely be renting theirs out for at least 6 months.

Not had time to read other posts sorry but -

I had a (briefer) estrangement with my family that ended after I had my first child. It was excruciatingly lonely and painful during my pregnancy and I spent a lot of time thinking how much they must all hate me to not be present during pregnancy/birth (my mum and I reconnected after the birth, with siblings it took a further 2 yrs). I've also been in a relationship previously where the guy was controlling and abusive and drove big wedges between my family and I, no contact with some siblings for a couple of years. In both cases I felt aggrieved and victimised and wished things were different but felt stuck in the dynamic. I'd suggest that she would have found having a child without your involvement to be pretty horrendous and doesn't want it to happen a second time. Also having children would hopefully put things in perspective re parents being humans too.

I feel like he's trying to take advantage financially and she is glad that it gives her a chance to have a closeness with you again, in the sense that he will be encouraging contact instead of restricting it. Her calling/sending pics everyday suggests she's longed for a connection and it's a massive relief to have it.

I really sympathise about not knowing about your grandchild and I think that will take years to come to terms with, if ever. Hopefully in future you can have open conversations about it when it's less raw and threatening to her relationship. It just sounds to me like she's lost her voice to an extent and her sense of self/grounding through losing her family. However much it was at her instigation I imagine it wasn't what she'd have hoped for either. I'm sure he's worked hard at gaslighting her into feeling a huge distance from her family. I'm not saying she's faultless in this situation, just offering a perspective

Thanks Albinoni , you are right we need to forgive . I am trying and think I’m having some success . I’ll never forget though .

Glad that you are feeling better and you’re are gaining some clarity about the situation.

Your DD would not have to have to have sight of this thread to know how much you love her - she already knows. Deep down she knows , How could she not? Even after the appallingly cruel way in which she has deceived you all you are still prepared to engage with her and help her. If that’s not deep love I don’t know what is .

One thing she would learn from this thread though is that everyone on here is unanimous in thinking that her and LB’s behaviour is utterly disgusting.

Peelingpaint. It is really interesting to hear a different perspective . It sounds like it was a very difficult time for you too. So pleased that you reconnected with your family x

I'm so sorry that in my rush to respond I didn't see how long ago you posted this and how much things have developed. Still haven't had time to read it all but imagine my response earlier was pretty unhelpful. Sending best wishes and apologies

peeling - thank you so much for taking the trouble to post and please don't apologise. I am very grateful for your post so I am replying now, despite the time (I often wake up in the night and start tossing and turning as I think about it. I try to distract myself with Audible, but it doesn't always work!).

I find your response incredibly helpful, because you have given me the other perspective. What I find most difficult to understand is how DD can go along with LB's behaviour and upset the family so much. Your description of being 'stuck in the dynamic' rings so true. DD is totally dependent on LB, she is with him 24/7, lives in 'his' house, has DC with him, has no independent means of support, has adopted his way of thinking, even 'parrots' things which I know she wouldn't say but he would, if that makes sense. Your phrase 'lost her voice' exactly sums up the situation. I am so sorry that I wasn't there for her during her first pregnancy and birth. Thank you again and I am so pleased that you escaped from your bad relationship and are reconciled with your family.

Grohnjant - thank you for your kind words. I was feeling better but now worried again, following a couple of texts from DD1 yesterday.

The first text was a copy of LB's PGCE certificate, which I found a bit odd, as we knew he had passed ages ago, and the date on the certificate is several weeks ago. I suppose he might only have just received it, if he didn't go to the ceremony, but why would we want to see a copy of it, given his low opinion of all of us. Or if he wanted us to see it, why not send it himself? Alarm bells started ringing, but I just sent a brief message back saying to pass on our congratulations. This was quickly followed by a second text which reads 'Hopefully I will have one too next year!' to which I have not yet responded.

On the face of it, these messages are innocuous but, knowing them as I do, I cannot help but feel that this is their way of trying to initiate a conversation about money before we go to visit. That raises the spectre of not going at all if we don't meet LB's demands. Hence my inability to sleep. I am now beginning to doubt myself again and thinking that I am becoming paranoid. A part of me would rather just not hear anything for a while, as it upsets me and disturbs my equilibrium.

I am worried that she is going to ring me and catch me off guard and start asking me about the money. It's also occurred to me that apart from the rent, we will be asked to put up a deposit on the property, which we might not get back and we would have to part with the money for a year anyway. If the tenancy is in their names, the deposit will go back to them. And how will they afford the cost of moving and all of the associated costs? They are neither of them working and all the money they had went into that second property, so they probably don't have any savings. I don't know if they have rented it out yet, although they bought it about six months ago.

I am making myself feel sick thinking about it. I really don't want her to call at present. We haven't spoken on the telephone for a few weeks and I prefer it that way. We have agreed that DH will deal with the financial aspects, as he is much more measured and doesn't become emotional in the way I do. We should have an agreed script of saying that we will discuss it when we are there and stick to it, but I am convinced that LB will want us to agree to it before we visit.

I can now see the worst case scenario is about to ensue. DD won't do the course because we have let her down yet again, she will be bitter against us, and she will be trapped indefinitely with LB.

If she calls "you need to speak to Dad about that".

I also think you need/should ask "as 2 adults with your own DC we want to understand your financial situation as you obviously have 2 properties are capable of working, Will have at least a £27k bursary so we want to understand what exactly you need our assistance for as we are financially struggling"

I really think it's all a guise to buy another property with the bursary and not spend a penny of it...

I hate that you are helping fund this, I 100% get why and I understand all your reasoning but I hate that you feel like you have to.
Neither of them work yet he owns 2 properties, cannot for the life of me work out why your DD name isn't on them too. He is so entitled I hate him for you.
They treat you in such a horrendous way and yet still expect you to bend over backwards for them.
I could not for the life of me ever treat my mum like this and I wish I could give you the biggest hug.
They really don't deserve you. X

I almost think you would be better off offering to LOAN them money for a property in DD name like his parents did...

But if you see how ridiculous that would be? And that you'd have to every right to challenge her on that.

'DD you're a grown woman with a family of your own why do you think it's our job to finance your life when you already have the means to do so yourself?'

I absolutely second the idea of a loan as well. And get it in writing.

Weird sending the text with his certificate, don’t understand what that was about.
I think peeling makes some good points, that tally for me with something you said OP - you said that she went no contact hoping you would turn up on her doorstep.
I wonder whether she is so stuck that she has become a passive partner in this, she can’t see a way out, can’t tell you as she would feel a complete fool, and have to face how awfully she has treated you , and is also afraid of LB. Maybe she is hoping, deep down, that something beyond her will cause the situation to change - does she perhaps want to be rescued ?
It is very hard to be stuck in a relationship with someone controlling, you spend the whole time dealing with the immediate situation, appeasing the person who controls you. It is exhausting and makes planning to leave almost impossible.
I agree that this attempt by LB to pressure you for more money may be allowing her contact that she has very much wanted all along.
I was estranged from my Mother, for different reasons, through my pregnancy and birth of my first baby, and it was very bleak not having her, her not seeing my dd. In my case it was my mother’s choice, she was the one backed into a corner, and I had to give her the way out. I turned up on her doorstep and although she was very frosty to start with, I ignored it, and let her actual desire to fuss over dd take over.
I suppose what I mean is that what your dd is saying, and what her deep feelings actually are, may be very different .

So Sorry you have had a sleepless night . You must be exhausted . That alone makes any problem seem so much worse. Great advice from PPs today .

I think you are correct in thinking that the photo of the PGCE certificate followed by her text saying she hopes she’ll soon have one was a (not so subtle) reminder that you are expected to bankroll the whole thing . She’s probably under a massive amount of pressure from LB to get the details finalised . What a nasty piece of work he is !

Proceed with caution regarding renting for them . We got caught out with our DD as we’d acted as guarantor on a room in a shared house before she met her BF . He then moved in , they both lost /gave up their jobs and we had to pay ( legally no choice ). Luckily they moved on soon after that but I had nightmares of having to pay indefinitely.

If you loaned them money would they actually repay or default? If they defaulted , how would you feel about taking “official” action to get the money back? Just think what a field day LB would have with that !! I think that would be even worse than saying no to any money in the first place.

Peeling really does give a good insight into this and yes your DD is trapped but I’m not sure what anyone can do to rescue her until she is ready to be rescued .

If she does ring you don’t have to answer immediately. You could be in the shower /driving / at a medical appointment . She won’t know . You can always call her back later .

You sound so upset again today and my heart breaks for you . I used to have times when I felt exactly how you have so eloquently described .

If the sleepless nights and extreme anxiety continue would you consider seeing your GP ? You need to prioritise yourself for a while , you really do.

Thinking of you xx

With regards to paying rent etc, I wouldn't be guarantor or be on the lease or anything.

If you go ahead with giving her money accept it for what it is. You are giving them money to do as they wish with. You won't get it back, just like the money you've loaned them so far.

This is why I mentioned earlier about working out if we have given will give DD1 £x then we need to give that provisions to DD2 and DD3 in the near future. Can you actually afford that? How are they going to feel knowing that you handed out that money whilst DD1 has been so shitty to everyone?

You said one of your DDs got a bursary so you weren't funding her as much, yet regardless of DD1 getting £27K you are going to give her how much more??

When LB isn't happy with how much you offer you need to remind them that you have 3 DDs and are funding then EQUALLY and you do not have the level of money they think you have, although you may in the future you don't now.

You could turn it around and say if DD1 waits until the land is sold then you can gift her £x. The DDs will be older and therefore easier for her to study, subsidised nursery fees/school etc. She could presumably defer for a year and keep her place on the PGCE?

Perhaps you could then afford a 2 bed flat in Brighton and they could live in it for minimal rent for a year and that could be your support to them???

It would change the power dynamics for sure....