Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

If you don’t complete the course do you have to pay the bursary back?

(there’s another lump sum to give them)

Honestly, I think you'd be crazy to give them a penny towards the PGCE. How is she going to complete that with a baby, a toddler and a useless husband?

I would tell your DD now that you agreed to the financial contribution based on two grown adults sharing. So a small one bedroom flat. Her deception doesn't alter the amount.

But honestly I wouldn't part with a penny more. They're playing you. You'll never have a grandparent relationship with those children.

Can you honestly say that you can make this sort of contribution to your other daughters?

What stands out for me is their absolute entitlement .
I have never heard of anyone getting so much financial support from their parents. Some may help with a deposit maybe but I don't know anyone who has had as much as they want or have had.
My dd is 17 and just applying to uni and will get a student loan like most people. I will help as much as I can but I am not paying her fees and she will also work weekends for spending money.
I know Mumsnet is heavy on the high earners but this is beyond normal surely?
I think because his family have helped , dd is under the impression that this is standard practice and so gets annoyed when you don't jump to their requests.

I've been lurking on this thread as my DM is in a similar situation with my DB; he doesn't speak to any of us anymore although there aren't any grandchildren thankfully.

I agree with PPs who say that you should not part with any more money and should harden your heart a little. Given what I've seen my DM go through (albeit she is not blameless) I think you'll be bled dry and then cut loose (or toyed with) possibly once you've become attached to the DGCs.

I am so sorry you are going through this, LB sounds entitled manipulative and awful, as pps said. But your DD is not an innocent, although obviously she is being manipulated by him too. Not telling you about the DGDs was just cruel, and she must realise that.

I just can't believe how much money they feel entitled to demand from close family. They're in their twenties and have hardly worked, they own at least one property outright, do I have that right? They (and especially him) need to wake up and join the real world. Most young people that I know in their twenties are working hard and paying high rents. Like my own DD. I would love to help her buy a house outright, but sadly don't have the funds, like most people. But actually, I'm not sure that even if it were possible, it is good for young people to be handed property. It would make them feel they never have to struggle hard for a career. And indeed it seems that it has had exactly this effect on LB.

I think you are going to have to harden your heart, OP. To protect yourself emotionally as much as anything else. Just let DD know you are there for her whenever she wakes up to the truth about her relationship.

I also can't help feeling you are unwittingly being unfair on your other DDs, dishing out all this money and emotional investment into your DD1. I think you should rewrite your will, deducting what DD1 has already received from her share of your estate. If the situation continues for years and years and she never comes to her senses, think about cutting her out altogether. I know it must be heartbreaking but she really has treated you very badly, and it can't all be blamed on LB.

I also can't heko

Sorry, don't know what a heko, is, edit fail!

Why do you feel you have to justify your money on this thread to us?
It should be private and yet LB seems to know so much about it. Most families don't discuss detailed finances in my experience.

Albinoni as I mentioned before we have been in a very similar position and I fully sympathise

You love your daughter and naturally you are desperate for the chance to get to know your grandchildren. You have understandable and justifiable worries that your daughter is in a toxic, controlling relationship . You know from experience that if you do not agree to her and LB ‘s demands you will be cruelly cut off without a second thought and you also know from experience what a hideously dark place that is to be .

I think it is natural to want to try to do anything and everything to avoid returning to that place and ,until you have reached your own absolute limit , this cycle of events will persist

When I finally reached my absolute limit , it was as though the scales had fallen from my eyes and I could finally see for myself what others had seen previously .-

There’s no happy ending for us because as I mentioned up thread we have neither seen or heard from our DD for over a year . That is our punishment. We have no idea there they are now living .

The finality of it all is really sad but the nerve jangling feeling of being subjected to their demands and punishments if we didn’t immediately capitulate was infinitely worse .

Friends and family who walked this path beside us said they would have reached their absolute limit way before we did. Maybe they would have, maybe they wouldn’t . Who knows? Its hard to say until you have faced the situation.

It’s horrible for you . I’m sorry you are going through it .

Fretfulparent In our case we had not shared any details of our financial situation with DD or her BF but it seemed they made assumptions based on our lifestyle . He made it very clear , via email , that the amount we “frittered “ on holidays and hobbies was embarrassing and we should immediately divert a good proportion that cash to them .

As it was they’d already had more than enough from us and we learned afterwards that most of it was spent feeding his ( and subsequently her ) habits :-(
His sense of entitlement and the speed at which DD became just like him was staggering .

This thread is truly heartbreaking, and not something you could ever imagine happening. @everyonesufferingwiththis. Sending you all my best wishes.

TBH I would ask DD and LB why they believe you should give them huge sums of money when LB parents only loaned them money, it's not your fault DD doesn't have GPS that can give her £35k.

It does seem like LB brought his GP money to the marriage and therefore he expects you to give DD the same to make t equal. I don't think he will stop until you match what his GP gave plus the share of the profit he had to give his parents. He sees that would have been theirs had you done what he wanted...

They will use DD course to extract that amount for you for sure.

I would also be asking why they think you should give them a large sum of money when you aren’t even allowed to spend time with them ? That is bizarre. When people go Nc with a family member they don’t then normally expect to be given cash !
I think you are in shock at what has happened OP, and I agree that you do somehow need to find a way to protect yourself. LB is also abusing you and the rest of your family.

@SirVixofVixHall I agree totally with your last sentence.

This is financial abuse of multiple people. I am incredulous that despite going "no contact" money is still expected. Why does a young man with a degree feel he is entitled to not work, despite having a family. It's absolutely insane.

Yes it is insane isn’t it ? My dds are younger, but I know a lot of twenty somethings as I have Godchildren that age. Not one would expect their parents to be doing stuff like this.
Many parents help towards a deposit on a first home, but this is above and beyond what anyone I know would be doing for their adult child. It really is unhinged behaviour from LB. Yet he must be very convincing .

Thanks for your replies.

laundry - DD2 and DD3 are both still in full time education so are receiving financial support, although DD2 has funding. They are living in a flat which we own and we cover the costs and pay them an allowance. They are not losing out. If anything, DD1 appears to have been resentful as she thinks that they are being treated better, although she is older and married now, and we supported her in the same way when she was in full time education.

Part of me wonders if this is partly why DD1 is going the route of the PGCE, so that she can say that she is not being treated equally if we don't pay for everything. It's odd because she is a married mother of two and has seen us only once in nearly three years, has deceived us, and yet feels that she should be treated as a dependent child. I do think that DD1 is keen on her subject, but I would be very surprised if she has any intention of teaching.

Ledkr - I agree. It is the sense of entitlement that upsets me so much, the feeling that whatever I give will never be enough, that everything has a price, even their own DDs. DD1 didn't used to be like that, she was like her sisters, open, loving and affectionate, would express thanks for things, would just hug me and say 'I love you Mummy' (this is making me cry as I type). Now, all we receive are the very stilted cards which inevitably say 'Have a relaxing day', whereas DD2 and DD3 fill their cards with loving messages and we exchange loving texts.

tatty - I am sorry to hear about your family situation as I know just how painful it can be. You articulate my fears as to exactly what might happen.

Pemba - sadly, I think you are right and that DD1 has colluded to an extent, although under his direction. She knows just how much I love all my DDs and that her 'ghosting' would hurt us, but she used my love as a weapon against me. She is a manipulative person but she is not a cruel person. Also, by ghosting us, I think she was expecting us to turn up on her doorstep. When we didn't, she told DD3 that she didn't think I loved her any more. However, I genuinely think that she now realises that not telling us about DGD1 was a step too far. She wants a relationship but on her terms. LB doesn't want a relationship at all, he just wants money and then he will discard us. I totally agree that people should work for things and earn things.

Grohnjant - I am so sorry for your situation and you describe it so eloquently, especially the 'nerve jangling feeling'. But a year is not very long at all, you know. The question is how will you react when your DD comes back, which I believe she almost certainly will. I think I am almost at my limit. DD1 keeps sending photos of the DGDs and actually, although I make admiring comments, in reality I either feel very little because I have no bond with them, or I just feel upset because it brings everything back and I wonder about DD1's motives - basically the trust has gone.

Fretful - Like Grohn's situation, which is scarily similar, LB made assumptions based on our lifestyle. We absolutely do not discuss details of our finances with family and friends.

Random - you are spot on. He sees us as having let down DD by not proceeding with the original transaction. He sees himself as her champion and protector who needs to fight her family to get what is rightfully hers. I expect he makes DD1 feel uncomfortable too as he will make it clear that she has brought nothing to the marriage apart from her unpleasant family.

SirVix - they haven't asked yet, but I know that they will, and that everything will come crashing down because it won't be enough for them. I feel anxious just thinking about it.

I suppose when they start bringing up numbers for £ I would ask how they think you can afford that for all three of your DDs.

That you cannot give them £40K as you don't, or unlikely will ever have, £120k to divide between the 3 of them. I would state although it may appear you have affluence actually you don't and you both worked hard to achieve it and are puzzled that they think you should effectively give them so much money it will have paid for half a house...

They expect to live without working whilst your DH needs to work to Give them the money!!!!

This is just agony - how long has this been going on - over 5 years?

I think that your emotions are ricocheting between hurt and anger which is understandable.

These are opposite emotions, defensive (hurt) and attacking (anger) - both are valid - but you are unable to express or communicate them to your DD.

This leaves you powerless and unable to have dialogue to resolve the issue. And confused around your feelings towards your DD and what to do or say next.

So you go round and round, exhausting yourself - this isn’t sustainable.

The collateral damage is your MH, relationships with others - these will slowly erode and buckle under the pressure (even if you keep it all in your own head - you will be preoccupied). Also when you are in this exhausted state you may say and do things that might not be for the best (texts, emails, decisions on money, visiting them, contacting his parents etc).

The resolution is to grieve for your DD.

To let the hurt and anger settle on sadness. To accept that she is gone for now.

This heartless manipulative woman is not your DD. She has been brain washed. She is a victim. She is yearning for you - even if she is not conscious of that right now. Deep down she knows right from wrong as she has the deep love and support that you, your DH and DDs furnished her with for 22 years unhindered. There is money in her emotional bank to draw on and to “see” it - in time.

But the challenge you face is the risk of stepping into the boxing ring, wrestling with the pig on irrational “rules” that change and that you can’t possibly anticipate or abide by (because they are mad and he changes them) etc so that the issue is muddied and she sees you and not LB as the problem.

Stepping right back and allowing him all the time in the world for his solo performance in the spotlight is how she will be stirred to know who is wrong.

But that’s much harder to do than say and to keep it up 24/7.

The DGDs are your Achilles heel. They are a visceral emotional pull - they represent everyone and everything for you. I am sure it is “worse” because they are girls. This is where the emotion ramps up massively and puts you at risk.

But you need detached love for all 3 of them. Keep your distance. Really try hard to be indifferent so that you can cope - otherwise he will manipulate this and they will also be hurt.

Bide your time, give him plenty of space to f**k it up and save all of your love for later.

Keep your emotional distance - but keep lines of communication open and vanilla.

The DGDs are also your greatest opportunity - your DD will soon see that he is not a good Dad and that’s what will stir her - so be waiting in the wings....

The arrival of the DGDs, the deception around their births is truly cruel and this situation has understandably raised the emotional stress to another level x

Dear Albinoni,

I remember your LB post and have read this thread aghast and very saddened where the past few years have taken you. I hope you don't mind if I share some advice.

Perhaps I'm in the minority here but regardless of how lovingly your DD1 used to behave towards you, over the past 5 years there are bundles of evidence to show she has changed. I suspect she has a PD and she is manipulating you. Had it not been for meeting LB things may have been different but since meeting him she has adoptred his POV and chosen not to listen to her family. Your door has been open for many years, even after marriage she could have left and come back to you. Maybe she is experiencing cooercive control or emotional abuse but what changes it for me is the sheer financial manipulation that she has consistently exerted on you. Your other DDs are angry with her (and at you for giving her so much headspace), listen to them they will know her very well and they will be the DD that you will see get married and spend time with their children. Sadly, you know it's not DD1.

You sound very much like my parents - kind, generous, uncomplicated and are happy for your children to be financially supported by you as the debt that they will pay forward onto their own children. If I were in your position, I would painfully be accepting that unless you are payrolling them, you won't see the DGC. And to be blunt you have given (not lent, you'll never see it again) and as yet you've not met up. It's a living grief and appropriate for counselling to come to terms with this changed relationship.

I think it's worth beig very wary about agreeing to any future financial support when asked for it. Go away and bide sometime and exchange emails to be aboslutely sure what you are agreeing to. LB has very cheekily changed the goal posts and done so when you were unaware that the housing would be for four people. I don't think there's much you can do about it now without the threat of withdrawal.

If I were your friend, I would be tempted to suggest that you treat them in the same transactional way they treat you. In crude terms, what are you getting for your money? "I'm going to be in the area on XYZ dates, are any good for you? It would be nice to meet you all and then I can discuss with you future rent payments for the PGCE." Then it's clear to them that first you meet and then the support comes. Otherwise it's like a hostage situation.

I hope I have not caused you undue pain with my post, I would like to think that I'm giving you a pragmatic view that might help you have some contact whilst protecting yourself and you staying well so you can enjoy your future GP role with your other daughters. You sound like you'd be a brilliant GM.

Your DD is an adult and should maybe be reminded that money doesn't buy love!
I have read your threads and I am so sorry that you are going through this but I also think that writting a letter to outline definitively what you are offering and resetting your boundries is a good idea.
Do you want this forever OP? If not 1 of you needs to stop this and the time is now, this will make you ill.
You dont ever need to stop loving your DD but enabling the coercive control of her DH is not going to help, surely for your sanity and for the good of your family this needs to stop?
Maybe a letter telling them you owe them nothing, that you dont have to make up for anything and telling them what it appears to be ( money grabbing) and that as a good family you will be there always for support but that doesn't involve money. Be honest and truthfully but firm.
Reset your boundries OP or this could go on forever.

The following report will show that you are the victim of financial abuse through coercion - which is a crime.

Might be worth having a read to put this in perspective and to keep evidence around “the loan”, the shifting of funds from your DDs account, and the ongoing requests that it would appear to be easy to categorise as emotional and financial blackmail. You could quietly build a case against him and push the button at any moment in the future. I would also take strength from the fact that he will be falling out with loads of people in his path (neighbours, his course tutors, now midwives and health visitors) and tripping himself up - he will get his comeuppance.

www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/reports-and-publications/reports-and-briefings/money-matters/financial_abuse_evidence_review-nov_2015.pdf

I’m so sorry for what you are going through OP, my family went through something similar minus a LB, but it was my older brother with a LG! (Lobster girl) - I also have a younger sister.

After watching many awful years of My parents dealing with emotional blackmail over money (including an incident where my brother and LG went through my parents bank statements while my parents were away for the weekend...), my parents sat down and wrote out a letter to just the three of us children and said what they could fairly afford to give each child equally.

It was good. My brother and LG got a small portion of what they were after and my sister and I (after years of watching appalling grabby like behaviour - which seemed like sort of favouritism toward him as well) finally understood the resource was finite and that everything would be equal.

I wonder if that would be an option for you - exclude LB to some extent and just focus on stripping back and laying out the terms of your financial investment to each one of your children. And that’s it.

Sending a virtual hug, it’s so unpleasant.

Thank you everyone again for taking so much time and trouble to respond to me. It helps enormously.

Random - you are right. I don't think LB and DD consider that we can't help them to the detriment of her sisters or that we need what money we have for our retirement, potential future care costs etc. Their only concern is for themselves.

Gutterton - thank you so much for your posts. Your post yesterday at 10.46 is uncannily accurate in that you express exactly how I'm thinking and feeling. I do feel overwhelmed by hurt and anger and, when I do, it makes me distracted and also prone to doing silly things and making the situation worse. I am getting better though and your advice and that of others has been so, so helpful. I do feel powerless, just as you say, and sometimes it does exhaust me, although I am so much better than I was to start with. For the first 12-18 months I was a bit of a wreck, to be honest. Now it comes in waves but the waves do subside and I have a lot of good things in my life - it is like an injury which keeps hurting, but you have to learn to adapt and just get on with life, as what else can you do? You are right that I must let go and accept that she is gone for now. Every time I think of doing something like sending an emotional or ill advised text, I will remember the advice on this thread and pull back.

Gutterton, your messages give me hope because I think if you are so right about the present situation, there is a good chance that you will also be proved right as to how things evolve in the future. The sad thing is that I will have missed my DGDs' babyhood and early years, but that's just how it is and I have to accept it. Many parents don't have DGC or their children emigrate so they don't see them very often.

Doc - thank you so much for your kind and supportive post, which I really appreciate. If they do mention money I will indeed say that we can discuss it when we meet, but I am wondering if they will be trying to tie us us down first, so that they can cancel the visit if we don't comply. I think there is probably no more than an evens chance of the visit going ahead and I only wish it were sooner, as I have such anxiety around it. I would like to see my DGDs, even if it is only once, or perhaps it's better not at all. I don't know, we'll just have to wait and see what happens, I suppose.

I have nightmares about how the visit will be. The DGDs will be introduced under LB's close supervision and DGD1 will not know us so might be reluctant to come to us, which will break my heart. LB will be watching us closely, the master puppeteer, enjoying our anguish as we meet the DGDs for the first time and are made to realise what we have missed. He has waited a long time for his revenge and I have no doubt that he intends to enjoy it to the full. I also think that the crunch point will be at the meeting or before and I can see the relationship with DD1 coming to an end, at least for the time being. I just can't put up with this any longer. It has been agony with DD1 and I don't want a repetition with the DGDs thrown into the mix. Emotionally and financially, this is not a relationship I can afford for much longer unless something fundamentally changes. Whereas I used to long to hear from DD1, to the extent where I could think of nothing else, now it is almost a relief not to hear from her for a day or two, not to be bombarded with photos and videos of the DGDs I have never met

Saranvenya - I have written a letter along similar lines a few years ago but it just falls on deaf ears. They just choose what they want to believe and LB welcomes any evidence which he can put his own interpretation on and use against me. The most recent email, which I sent after I was fist advised of the existence of DGD1, had much more of an impact, probably because I was threatening to walk way - not in an angry way, but just in a sad, wishing you all the best, dignified way, and I felt so much better for sending it - as I felt I had reclaimed some of my power back. As I have been advised and would advise someone else - you can't change the behaviour of others, only their reaction to it. But sometimes it's easier to give advice than to take it. That is why this thread is so helpful, because the posters are objective.

Delphin - thank you for your suggestion, which I think has a lot of merit. I had actually thought of doing something similar and just give each DD a fixed sum, when we finally sort out the planning and sale of the site of our former house. However, I fear that if I give DD1 any money, LB will take it, she won't do the course, and he will be using it towards buying another property in his name so that he can live off the rent and not work.