Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

OP - yes she has. As have I. Mum's GP referred her to a counsellor however she didn't do many sessions as she actually has a very close friend who works in that field and I think she felt more comfortable talking to her friend about it all so was able to open up more.

I didn't ask too many questions as I felt that was her private business. But it definitely helped her. And both professionals confirmed with what we'd always expected was the root of my siblings issues which really helped us all with coping.

In our case, which was slightly different to yours, we were encouraged to take a step back but to keep the line of communication open which has helped.

I’m sorry that happened to you.

The cynic in me wonders if the rapprochement was after you received some insurance money.

Oh Albinoni
This is heartbreaking
I can fully empathise with you as we are in a very similar situation with our DD although no GCs (that we know of anyway ) .

She met someone scarily similar to LB just over 2 years ago when they were both 20 .They moved 100s of miles away very early on in their relationship and we have not seen or heard from her for over a year.

I read each of your updates open mouthed as the way our DD and her BF have behaved is so similar to your DD and LB

You asked about professional help .
I reached breaking point myself about 8 months ago and realised that my utter despair at the situation had become all consuming and it was affecting my DS and DH (who were already really upset at losing contact with DD ). I found a local private counsellor and had weekly sessions for about 5 months which has helped enormously. ( think she called it person centred counselling ) Was worth every penny . It was emotionally hard work but
it has helped me understand and accept the situation and appreciate the positives in my life and that we had done everything we could to protect DD but it was out of our control . I would certainly recommend it I looked for someone who specialised in bereavement and family break up.

I am so pleased that you had a joyful day with your DD2 yesterday . Like you say it is so important to cherish those times. I lost the ability to do that for a while

You sound like such a thoughtful, caring person and your relationship with DD 2 and DD 3 sounds fab. It’s good that you have some means of communication with DD1 but that you are proceeding with your eyes open and protecting yourself , DH and other DDs

I really do wish you all the best .

I am so sorry that you have had so much dreadful trauma and loss in top of this hideous situation. Sometimes you wonder why the sh*t doesn’t get shared around.

The cynic in me wonders if LB burnt down your house. Even if he didn’t physically he is currently metaphorically trying to.

This situation requires that you have emotional nerves of steel - he has been emotionally abusing you for years.

Professional help might be to see a psychotherapist who has experience with PD, DA, estrangement and also from your most recent post, trauma.

This would facilitate the compartmentalisation - so for one hour a week you take your stress to an objective expert - you unpack it, examine it, repack it.

You decide between the two of you if there is a response required to any new communication, request, incident from them - and what kind of response it should be. It will also help you to process and rinse out feelings that you are holding so that they don’t preoccupy and pollute your day to day life and the precious relationships that you have with your DH and DD2/DD3.

So week to week you note, list and then defer discussion of and issues, problems, feelings to your session where they can be expressed, contained, guided resolved.

I think that you are being “punished” for the email by the silence. You have no idea if you are now cut off forever, for a few years, months, weeks, days etc. But you needed to express yourself, you know your DD1 has heard you etc. and I expect that he will be delighted to weaponise your words. But he still wants your cash so it will be intriguing as to where he goes next.

Grohnjant I am so sorry that you are experiencing this too. But I am pleased that you found release in therapy which also helped you preserve your other important relationships. I cross posted with you but also wanted to say that your surprise that this is exactly what has happened to your DD is a surprise to you but is not a surprise to professionals or anyone who has done a bit of reading and research on DA. They are so predictable in their behaviours - it’s just often a matter of how far along the spectrum they are.

They are also predictable in their rage, anger, violence ..... and it v often progresses to this.

www.psychotherapy.org.uk/find-a-therapist/

Have a look through here. Only work with someone who has significant training and experience. Go see 3 or 4 for an initial consultation and choose to work with one that you feel trust in.

Thank you Gutterton
It is blooming terrifying how predictable these situations are . A lot of what you have said on this thread has resonated strongly with me not least your mention of “punishment” today. It was obvious we were being “punished” by being either ignored or verbally abused for not dancing to his tune every time.

It also dawned on me during counselling that DH, DS and I were as much victims of his emotional abuse as DD was.

Albinoni thank you for stating this thread ( although I’m desperately sorry that you had to) . There is some fabulous advice on here .

Albinoni - keep re reading this thread from the beginning because there are many people on here who have either personal or professional experience and as your understanding and the situation changes before your eyes some of the earlier insights will become more relevant and pertinent.

How would you feel about linking to your first thread?

I don’t want to add hyperbole to the thread OP, but why did your house burn down ? Is there any possibility at all that it could have been arson ?

Don't give them anymore money OP, they will rinse you dry. If the need money so desperately they can sell one of their 2 houses...and give you back what they owe you

Surely if they have two homes with no mortgage they can love off that income. I've managed to support myself without two unmortgaged houses for god's sake.
What do LB parents pay for in all this?

This is incredibly frustrating to read op. She is clearly in his total control and I think by doing everything he asks you maybe delaying the inevitable. He's less likely to want her and show his true colours if you aren't jumping to his every demand via her.
It's also clear that your situation with your dd and dgds is unlikely to change even if you hand over your entire life savings.

Although I 100% agree that they should not have any money as it is 100% facilitating the abuse and delaying the inevitable - I think that this course is a one off opportunity to let some light in via colleagues, tutors etc.

If you do agree to pay the rent - insist on it being paid direct. I expect that will annoy him and he will threaten her not to do the course - but stick to your guns.

Have you also agreed to pay for nursery?

Is the course anywhere near her old friends - could you enlist their help in “accidentally” bumping in to her?

In terms of the financial support I would put a response and offer in writing. If/when it comes up in person I would be bland "we're working out how we can afford it due to the housing not selling, insurance not paying out and I am no longer able to work for health reasons"

But I would put in writing that DD asked for you to support her and you knew nothing of the DGC so the request was realistically for what the same as one year at uni? Presumably they are renting out their family home?

What about the bursary DD will get? It truly is ridiculous and I actually think it's a way of getting the money out of you that they originally asked for.

I can't see how DD doing this course will open her eyes, she will go to classes and rush home, placement then rush home. It's a way of them getting a lot of money from other sources without letting DD have a life and then they can justify home school...

Oh yes Random the home schooling is another motive. I agree that she will rush home etc - but she will have to learn about safeguarding etc she will also be in the company of others for at least 6-8hrs a day who are alert to safeguarding issues - and that’s 6-8hours a day out of the total social isolation that he has put her in. Same with the DGDs if they get to nursery.

But I think that he might well have another plan which is to extort rent and nursery fees up front (must be £40K?) and then somehow prevent her from doing the course or disrupting it once she has started. Could get her pregnant again even.

Either way if she does the course she has a chink of light - if he blows up and prevents her from doing it because “OP wouldn’t give the money up front to him” - then surely that would force her to some sort of rock bottom.

Morning @Albinoni I hope you have a lovely weekend and are able to step away from the stress of this a bit.

Have you already talked 'numbers' with DD regarding your level of help for the pgce?

Could you maybe offer to pay for specific things like the books or the rent (direct of course) a couple of days childcare a week (gets the kids into a different environment!!) so the money going to them is either a paltry couple of hundred pounds or they never directly see it. If you could say along the lines of 'it was never our intention to finance it outright, this is all we're in a position to offer right now because of all the other factors', its still honouring your offer without enabling this situation to continue and obviously when we made the offer we were expecting a student flat not a family home.

I do fear from all you have said, LB absolutely wants to bleed you dry, and your other DD's may end up resenting you for it.

But if LB doesn't work the DGD won't be in nursery...

Ledkr, LB's parents made a loan to DD and LB when they bought their 'doer upper' property, after I pulled out for the reasons stated up thread. The arrangement was that when the property was sold, LB's parents would get their investment back plus a share of the profit. My understanding is that LB and DD had to be leaned on by his parents to sell the property and that they weren't very happy to pay them a share of the profit.

The main money has come from LB's GPS, which is why the DGDs are named after them. I remember DD saying that she and LB were going round to the GPs for lunch and LB had told her that she needed to be nice to them and make a good impression, so that they would give them the money - about £35k, I believe.

What upsets me is that he is demeaning her by saying how awful her family is compared with his family, who have made their dreams come true. And I think that she has believed this and there has undoubtedly been some resentment on her part. I think that she still loves us, but whereas she used to be very proud of her family and couldn't wait to introduce LB to her granny etc, now she feels that we let her down, awkward and maybe even a bit ashamed, that the family she loved and respected aren't actually up to much.

And I also agree with the poster who said that we are probably being set up to fail. It's win-win from LB's point of view. Either we pay whatever they ask for or we will have let them down yet again, so proving his point, and they will sever contact. DD will be shown that he is right and that her family are not worth bothering with.

Gutterton, I absolutely will pay the rent direct - the landlord will almost certainly require this anyway, as they are unemployed so won't be able to provide financial references. We haven't agreed to pay for nursery, as we didn't know their were any DC.

Random, I have thought seriously about setting things out in writing, which is exactly what he has done, to clarify the position. Perhaps we should have replied after we got the letter but I was blindsided by the revelation of the existence of DGD1 so, although I did email and we had some telephone conversations, the course was not mentioned. As I understand it, they are not planning to rent out the family home. I totally agree that they are trying to get the money off us which they think we 'owe' them.

Gutterton, I wish she would see her old friends when she moves, but I think it is unlikely and they are probably hurt that she dropped them so abruptly when they had all been so close. Her former best friend is a lovely person and I have thought of confiding in her about my concerns and seeing if I can persuade her to get in touch.

Random, I am concerned that you may be absolutely right in that, even if DD does do the course, she will constantly be worried about LB and her DC, so she will be under constant stress. She is already concerned that it will be 'too much' for LB to look after the DC and she always seems to feel obliged to take care of him. If she does the course and can't cope, this will knock her confidence instead of boosting it.

billy, I think your approach is sensible, but won't be enough to satisfy them. I see it as doing what we can to help, out of love and in good faith, but they see it as an obligation. We haven't talked numbers but I think that Gutterton is right and that, once they have factored everything in, they are probably looking for about £40k.

A couple of things strike me.

Firstly that the money that LB's parents loaned was paid back after the first property was sold (presumably there was something in writing that it was a loan) that they weren't very happy to pay them a share of the profit. But the money that you loaned them was for "financial support" in their mind (and not a loan or anything that would have to be repaid back as in their minds you reneged on your original "promise" to lend them money and this is the penalty)

Secondly the grandparents gave them about £35k, but you are expected to give them more (having already given them a "loan") , for rent and childcare all while they will have a bursary, rent from a property, a property sitting empty and a parent (LB) capable of either childcare or working to earn money while DD1 is at college/placement. Incidentally did LB go to a local uni for his teacher-training bursary, and if not who paid the rent then? Sussex, being commuter land, is quite expensive, surely there are unis in cheaper rent locations.

we could 'make amends' by letting them have the home we had bought for our retirement.

He is insane.

They have no reason not to rent their family home out, no reason for LB not to be able to look after both DC like DD does...

They want a privileged lifestyle on someone else's money!!!!

Forty thousand pounds ! That they feel you “owe” them ! She really has been completely brainwashed by him.
I agree that I think the course will not actually happen, or that he will make it so untenable for her that she will give up before completion, or be pregnant again.
This is a man who believes in punishing people for any perceived transgression, he will be a truly horrible and damaging father, and as pps have said, maybe that will be the thing that snaps your dd and leads to her leaving him.
I agree with everything above, he is using the babies as a carrot, but he will drop any contact once he has your money. He is little more than a con man really. He has coerced his own grandparents into giving them money. How come they have kept up contact with his parents, if they asked for their money back ? He must think they are useful ?
He has found that blowing hot and cold, and using punishments, works very well on your dd, so is using the same tactics with you. I imagine his parents are less malleable ?

Your dd must have had a reasonable moral compass growing up, so how has she accepted his take that you are horrible people for withdrawing from the house purchase and not giving them your retirement home ? Why has she come to believe that asking your in laws/parents for their retirement home is an acceptable way to behave ?
Yes I think you do need to clearly specify what you are prepared to pay for re her course, although given the bursary, I don’t understand why she needs any extra money at all ?
I am still stunned at the forty thousand pounds. LB is evil.