Reconciliation after estrangement?

[Albinoni]

I have NC'd for this but have posted in the past about my relationship with DD1 and was grateful for the advice and support which I received. The posts have since been deleted, at my request, but some of you may remember 'Lobster Boy', and my concerns that DD was in a controlling relationship and that I risked losing her.

Unfortunately, my fears were justified as DD seemed to become more and more withdrawn from the family, saying that her BF was her family now. She ghosted all of the family entirely for six months - apparently she just blocked us all - then there were occasional calls and she did send birthday cards etc. She moved house without providing an address and we didn't see her for two and a half years. I cannot begin to describe how painful that period was for me and DH and her sisters, but those of you who have been through this process of living bereavement will understand.

Anyway, the good news is that there has been a reconciliation following a lunch on neutral ground, in a restaurant, earlier this year (she lives hundreds of miles away from us). Prior to that, she had provided her address, so that we could send some books to her which are relevant to a course which she is intending to take next year. At the lunch, she said that they had married the previous year, and we said how pleased we were, and contact continued to improve.

The following month they asked if they could borrow some money to put towards buying a property and we agreed. Shortly after that, DD told me she was expecting a baby (due any day now), which I was overjoyed about. Then, a few weeks after that - and this is the part I am really struggling with - we received a letter from DD and SIL enclosing photos of the 14 month old which they already had. The accompanying letter was quite upsetting as it said they hadn't told us about DGC because they didn't want her to experience broken relationships and they hadn't been sure whether or not they wanted us involved at all, but they felt guilty at taking our money and not telling us about DGC.

DD and I subsequently had an emotional conversation and, since then, DD has been in contact with me virtually every day with messages and photos and is behaving almost as though nothing has happened. She says I can't think about the past or what I have missed and clearly wants to move forward. I know that she is right in that we cannot change the past and she assures me that she definitely does want us to be involved.

But I am in such turmoil over this. Obviously I am thrilled and excited about the reconciliation and the DGC, but I feel so desperately hurt and upset that she didn't tell any of us about all of these things, especially as I believed that we were close before. I am really struggling, to be honest, although it's early days and there is a lot to come to terms with.

We haven't met DGC1 yet as I think we both felt that it would be better to wait for the baby to be born and then meet them both together, when the emotions have died down a bit. The last thing I want to do is cause her any stress at this time and I sense that they are anxious at our meeting her PILs for the first time. I am also anxious about it, although they sound like lovely people and have been very supportive to DD. But goodness knows what they must think of us. I am also worried about becoming attached to the DGC in case they are taken away from me. I just couldn't put myself through all that again.

So I was wondering if anyone could give me advice if you have been in a similar situation. How easy was it to reconcile? Did the whole family reconcile or was it a piecemeal process? Did you involve any professional help, such as a counsellor or family mediator? Has it worked out? Are things the same and can the relationship ever really recover or is it just different? I really don't want to mess this up, as I have realised how fragile relationships can be, but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

Thank you for the links Gutterton and Rachel and to everyone for the sympathy and advice.

I have no doubt that the letter was written by LB as it is in a very similar style to an email he sent to us three and a half years ago. In that email he referred to himself as a SIL, even though they weren't married then, and complained that we had not welcomed him as a son, whereas he was proud of his parents who had welcomed DD1 as a daughter. He also said that they expected honesty from us, in the context of not proceeding with the original property transaction, and mentioned that we could 'make amends' by letting them have the home we had bought for our retirement.

He was also critical of DD2 who had been upset that DD1 had not been there for her in time for her graduation to give her love and support. They arrived late and left half way through the graduation dinner, saying they had to be back for their dogs. It was only an hour's journey away but they insisted that they had to travel together and they rejected DH's idea that maybe DD1 could arrive earlier to be there for DD2. When they arrived they were stuck together like glue and did not really talk to anyone or engage, although DD1 did try to join in and posed for the photos. The body language said it all and that's when I thought I had lost her. DD1 has subsequently told me several times that she went home and cried for hours afterwards, although there was no argument as such, but the atmosphere was very bad and it was a relief when they left. That was the last time DD1 and DD2 met. DD2 was so upset that her special day was spoilt and also that DD1 would allow LB to send an email criticising her. It's as though DD1 is incapable of exercising any independent judgement and just accepts everything LB says.

Regarding our wills, I have thought about this, as I hate the idea of LB getting his hands on anything and I know that, in a worse case scenario, he would take over and that would be awful for my other DDs at a time when they would be grieving. But it would be awful for DD1 to be excluded and would hurt her very much - she might also need money to get away. DH doesn't want to change his will, but I am thinking the solution may be to divide any inheritance into three parts, each part to be divided between each DD and their respective DC, and any DGC's share to be on trust until they achieve the age of 25. That way, it treats the DDs equally but means that LB could only get his hands on a third of a third, and it would be a natural thing to make provision in this way - it should not be seen as hostile. Hopefully, things will change in the future and I am aged 60, so I am hoping to be around for a while - and, of course, if we are, any inheritance may be swallowed by care costs, but it does worry me. We will ensure that the other DDs do not lose out or receive less.

DD3 blocked DD1 from her social media because she noticed that DD1 was watching it a lot, and she felt that DD1 should find out about her life by being in contact rather than following her on Instagram or whatever. Initially, she hoped to continue a relationship with DD1, but felt very hurt when DD1 abruptly ceased contact. Also, DD1 called her about a year ago and seemed to be trying to turn her against the rest of the family. DD1 confided in her about the marriage, but not the existence of DGD1, and told her not to tell us, although DD1 assured her that she would be telling us herself. In fact, DD3 did tell us after she had waited for 6 weeks for DD1 to tell us herself, as she thought we should know, and she felt that DD1 had put her in an impossible situation and had tried to turn her against the family. She loves her but, as I understand it, doesn't want a relationship at present, although she did send her a loving message on her birthday, and we all signed a Congratulations card after the birth of DGD2.

Puzzling, I am very much in two minds about visiting and meeting the DGDs. If it were left to me, I think I probably would not go, for all of the reasons you mention, but DH wants to go and it would be very difficult for him to go alone. He favours a pragmatic approach and I think we need to present a united front. Also, I have a feeling that it may be the last we will see of DD1 and the DGDs for a long time, as we will not be willing to meet their full financial demands for the PGCE course which starts later this year. So, as things stand, we are going, but I have my eyes wide open, and this thread is very helpful in keeping them open.

Your suggestion for inheritance sounds a good solution and wouldn't ring alarm bells. Personally I'd get spending it...

That comment about giving (!) them your retirement home makes you wonder if LB targeted DD as a future wife because you appear to have wealth...

I think you do need to very much see the seeds that things have very much changed for you and DH financially and you don't actually have money to help them out. You could say give a token £500 for books/consumables "that's all we can afford".

It gets worse and worse with each further detail revealed. Wanting your retirement home !?!? Entitled, deluded, arrogant. Unhinged.

But it does show a yearning and deep grief from DD1 which she is unable to express (looking at instagram, crying after the graduation)

Your DH wants a pragmatic approach. But this is not a rational person or situation that you are dealing with. He has a significant PD and is emotionally and financially abusive. Your DD is living in the most extreme socially isolated and coercively controlled situation. This is illegal - your DD is the victim of a crime. Actually you and your DH are also victims of financial abuse and coercive control. Those emails and any other correspondence where he ties your money to consequences proves that.

Your DH needs to read this thread - and the other one. He then needs to educate himself on PD, coercive control and domestic abuse - so that he can see that his well intended pragmatic approach is destined to fail, backfire and cause a great deal of harm.

I do think that you should both seek the insight and support of an expert in these situations. On this thread many people have been able to predict his next move - they are the classic behaviours and manoeuvres of a highly dangerous man.

You need to know how to play the long game for your DD and DGD sake.

I don’t see why any of your DDs need to know the contents of your will.

I think it's a good idea to be transparent about wills. It can stop arguing when it all comes out.
My family are always open about what's happened.

I don't think your DD is innocent in this. She is still love struck. She is choosing to do this to you.

He wanted your retirement home??????

It gets worse with every update.

I just want to give you a massive hug you are doing so well handling all of this, I do fear you are right that contact will be limited if you withdraw financial support but it is the right thing to do.

Maybe framing the money as everything you give them now goes straight to funding and sustaining his abuse / coercive control of your DD and DGDs and that he will also fritter it away or hoard and hide it in his own name as he has done to date and that actually hanging on to your money and investing it exclusively for your DD and DGDs as an escape fund when they need it down the years might help you?

I can't help but feel like he could run a cult one day. They way he honestly expected you to hand over your retirement home to make amends.
Bat shit crazy!

OP I am so sorry for what you're going through

My own mum is going through something similar with one of my siblings. It's truly horrendous. We are still in the thick of it all, walking on eggshells with the DGC caught in the middle. It's like a dark cloud over the whole family. The frustration of it all feels like it eating me alive sometimes.

I wish I had some advice for you, I don't, I can only empathise.

For what it's worth, I do think your daughter loves you. The emotional abuse is unforgivable and I completely understand your other DD's concerns (I have been in their shoes) but from what you've said, I believe that she does love you. I think she wants a relationship with you but is torn and he's got too strong of a grip on her.

You haven't mentioned any examples of this type of behavior from your DD prior to getting with this guy. No resentment or jealousy issues. Seems she was a nice, normal girl until he came along. He is 100% the problem.

He's despicable. I felt sick reading some of the details regarding him and his sense of entitlement. Makes me curious about his own DP's. I wonder what they actually know and what they think of it all? And what they would think of the money requests and his suggestion that you give them your retirement home?

I'm glad to see all of the support and valuable advice you've got on here. I really hope things get better for you and your family. You do not deserve this x

Thank you neverornow. I have just woken early again worrying about it all so your post has made me feel better. That is the question which haunts me - does she love her family? I think that you are right that she probably does, but she has been complicit in LB's behaviour. She didn't tell me when she was pregnant or gave birth to DGD1, not until she was 14 months old. How can you not share that news with your family if you love them? How can you agree to send a letter that basically says that the DGDs have to be protected from us? I also think that there is an underlying resentment, maybe not now but there was, as she said a few years ago that we had never welcomed LB, who is her life partner. But we did try, honestly we did, but he has always seemed to be wanting things, not a relationship or gifts, but hard cash - always something for nothing.

There was another family row last night, made up quickly, thankfully. DD2, who is here, feels exactly the same frustration as you do and wants to protect us. DH listens in to conversations but doesn't engage and gets upset when asked what he thinks, as he deals with things differently. He internalises it, doesn't really like to talk about it, and says we are 'going round in circles'. He is probably right, but the whole thought of this visit is stirring up all of these feelings and hurt and I have to talk about it sometimes or I will explode. I have been advised to show 'detached love' but it's very hard to detach from something like this - 'eating me alive' is a very good description.

@neverornow, I am so sorry about your mum. Is the situation improving? How is she coping? What have you advised her to do? She is so lucky to have your support, as I know I am with my wonderful DDs, but it is not right to lean on them too much. They deserve better. I would get some more counselling but I didn't find it very useful in the past. Perhaps I didn't find the right person. Maybe if it were a finite situation in the past, then I would come to terms with it, but it's the uncertainty and the daily torment which make it so difficult.

Thank you billy for your continued support and to Gutterton for your very clear advice.

Random, I think you are right. We probably appeared to be much wealthier than we actually are. Before we downsized and moved to our retirement home, we lived in a large house with horses etc, as the girls used to ride. However, the house had a large mortgage, which was fine when we were working and high earners, but the intention was always to sell it when the DDs left home and pay the mortgage off. Now we are retired, our income is drastically reduced. I told DD1 this a while ago but I don't think it has really penetrated. I suspect his DP's don't know the half of it although they may well feel resentful, as they have helped financially and possibly think that we should have done more, especially if they believe we are wealthy.

I was wondering if we should write a letter before we go to try to set out the position before we go all that way to see the DGDs, whom I have never met, but might form an attachment to if I see them and they become 'real'. But putting anything in writing with LB is a mistake as it gives him ammunition to be used against us. I think realistically I have to support DH and go on this visit as she is his daughter too and he wants to see her. But, for two pins, I would not go.

but it's the uncertainty and the daily torment which make it so difficult.

That’s the coercive control and emotional abuse that these types deliberately set up - you are all a victim of it now as well.

I think that getting expert emotional support from a psychotherapist with experience in estrangement and coercive control would help you cope otherwise it will erode the rest of your life. They will help you to learn to emotionally, logistically and practically compartmentalise this issue so that you can pace yourself emotionally, make clear decisions (from a clear strategy) as they arise and get on with a fruitful life in the interim.

There will be MH experts and consultants out there who will know his PD and his exact next moves. They will tell you exactly how to handle him.

I think that you have to hang on to the fact that your DD loves you all dearly, is a victim of a v dangerous person and I think I would “excuse” her actions as I don’t believe she is in control. I think it would be destructive and counterproductive to blame her - look beyond her.

You are dealing with a v dangerous person here - seek the insight of experts who have dealt with these people and know their every move and motivation.

The challenge is that your DH and DD2/3 are all behind you on this journey. They are not informed yet.

Actually I would go and see them it shows you will make the effort. I would make a point of how you struggled to afford to come and that you still have a mortgage to pay and ill health means you're not able to return to well paid or any work.

You will have to ask them for advice on how they manage without working... how you've given them the last of your savings (tell them to consider it a wedding present perhaps as I don't think you'll ever get it back?)

I wouldn't put things in writing a it will be used against you.

TBH lay it on thick and hopefully you will see a look of horror on LB face. I would considering saying "whilst we're up we need to have a chat about some financial planning we've been doing and the money we loaned you" hopefully LB will think money is coming his way...

Sadly I think it will show you the way things are one way or another. If LB makes up some perceived slight to stop contact again.

It's a hideous situation and it's likely the best you can hope for is a relationship with DD via your chats.

Every gut instinct from you from the v being, (lobster) alongside every single one of his actions, expectations and the conflicts are about entitlement to your money.

I believe that he deliberately targeted your DD to extort money from your wealth and it has been a systematic campaign to do so since. This is a crime against you.

He has her and DGDs now as emotional hostages to blackmail you for more money.

I think if you turn off the tap he may discard her or she will be under so much pressure from him she will walk.

This is what you want and your DD and DGDs need.

If you keep paying out you are facilitating her and your DGDs emotional abuse - because this is what is happening behind closed doors as he has isolated them from friends, family, society, work - living in frugal conditions and exposing her health to v serious risk by taking her out of hospital after the CS.

Your money allows him to keep them captive and out of society.

He is a v dangerous, dysfunctional and manipulative man - don’t forget that for one second even if he puts on the charm or presents as “normal”.

All of the advice is to keep in bright breezy contact with DD - assume all texts and calls are monitored. You could sow some seeds of doubt - by just asking one or two pertinent questions verbally that as the NY Times piece sit heavily on the back shelf of the mind.

The dilemma is that the course and nursery are a chink of light where the real world can be let in to shine a light - but you are expected to pay for it - this could all play out as a perfect opportunity - so it might be worth one last role of the dice (with your money). I do think that other people (new colleagues, students, nursery) are likely to have a greater impact on your DD directly than you because at this time he has cast you as the enemy and she is likely to be suspicious.

I would report your concerns of coercive control to social services or back through the hospital anonymously. Thus happens all of the time. They won’t know they were reported and it is mostly neighbors, teachers, nurses etc who do this so it could have come from the midwife directly. I expect he has already fallen out with neighbors etc.

Professionals have a responsibility to investigate abuse or neglect - they know how to do it subtly.

Oh OP...I'm sorry you had a sleepless night.

I do believe she loves you. I wouldn’t say that to you if I didn’t mean it I believe that she is being controlled and what’s happened over the past few years has been driven by him completely. I can’t imagine how it felt to find out about the birth of your first DGC in that way but again, I would be certain it was purely down to him. She would have been vulnerable at that time and he probably brainwashed her into believing all sorts of negative and untrue things about her own family. I’ve seen it, they believe it all and then convince themselves that you are indeed the enemy and then act accordingly.

I believe that all of this is purely down to his control as if it weren’t, I think that you and the rest of the family would have experienced issues with her before he came into her life. She would have shown signs of being vindictive or jealous or resentful or form for this type of behavior. Especially growing up as one of 3 daughters where jealousy and competitiveness can easily crop up.

The fact that she called you after giving birth to DGC2 is a positive. I had an emergency C section - it’s an absolute rollercoaster. I barely knew my own name after it all! But she thought of you, and wanted to speak to you. She needed her Mum!

My Mum is ok now, thank you for asking. She’s doing better but the whole thing is just like a dark cloud hanging over her. We can’t enjoy any family occasion and don’t actually bother celebrating some of the occasions that we used to. She’s older than you are so we’re worried about how this will affect her health. She seems to be ok once she gets to see the DGC’s and maintain that relationship with them as they had a very strong bond before all of the issues kicked off.
She floats between longing to go wrap her arms around my sibling and try fix everything, to wanting to shut sibling out completely and forgetting about them as some of what’s been said and done has been utterly horrendous.

I can only wish you good luck with it allI hope that she comes to her senses and leaves that horrible man. He’s despicable. It's a truly painful thing to go through. You don't deserve this x

@Gutterton's post is perfect and sums up what I've been trying to articulate for the last couple of days but keep deleting the post.

What proves it is all the effort is coming from you, you are expected to roll over and do whatever necessary to have a relationship with your DD and DGD's and what is necessary is money. They dangle, then they take away and this will continue as it keeps you hooked.

I completely agree that her doing the PGCE will let other influences into her life that will make her realise that it is not normal so is worth the gamble of more money from you, I think pleading poverty will be a tricky one as they must know you are mortgage free.

OP, it is very sad to read your messages and I remember your originally posts.

I do think that your daughter is in a way being controlled but I also would not rule out that she is also very manipulative and using you financially. While I am sure she does love you and is happy to have you back in her life she could not be unaware of the misery and pain she has caused you and your whole family and continues to do so. She now has the DGD to use against you and use to put pressure on and she and her DH are already doing this.

I think @Puzzlingitout has written a very insightful post and you should ready it carefully. This is history repeating itself. You gave money for a house that is not in your daughters and are offering to pay rent for a year and childcare. I can see the upside of this or course in that your daughter may meet other people and wake up to what her life is but equally, her DH should be looking after the children.

As hard as it is, I think you need to pull back here and let this play itself out without direction from you. They have already postponed your visit and will probably do so again. If they do then leave it open ended. Say you will leave it to them to contact you when they have firm dates you can visit.

Pull back on the daily contact with your daughter (although I know you said she instigates it). This is her hook to keep you engaged and keep your hopes high that you will have a reconciliation and relationship. I honestly think if you don't give them more money this will be the end but I sincerely hope that I am incorrect.

I can feel your stress and sadness from reading your posts and I hope that things work out for the best for you all. Please keep your other daughters close and don't underestimate how this situation, or your handling of it, is impacting on them. Your eldest daughter and this situation should not be treated as the most important person/situation in your life to their detriment.

I agree with Gutterton ‘s posts. Wanting your retirement home ? That is absolutely insane, no normal boyfriend would speak to his girlfriend’s parents like that. It is so bizarre that it is frightening.
You say his parents have “helped out” financially, but why ? Have they been bullied too ? Because these two young people already have much more than the vast majority of twenty somethings, seemingly for doing nothing at all . I wonder if they are a bit scared of him.

I agree with talking to a professional who specialises in coercive control and violence. I think he is a dangerous man, a true narcissist or psychopath. You need help in real life, all of you.
Are you going to meet his parents?

There is a book (“Harriet” by Elizabeth Jenkins , published by Persephone books) that is a fictionalised account of a real life Victorian crime, almost 150 years ago, involving a man rather like Lobster Boy, his victim tragically a young woman with learning difficulties. It is a harrowing story, and gave me the same feeling of helplessly reading about a woman in a terrible situation, and being unable to rescue her.
Thankfully the world is different now and there is awareness of coercion and its effects on victims. The real life “Harriet” could not be saved because despite her mother doing everything she could, she was assessed as having capacity to agree to marriage, and after marriage she belonged to her husband. Now coercive control is a crime.

As I agreed above, you really need professional help on the best way to deal with a man like this. He is a criminal, he is dangerous, and you can’t work this out all on your own. Your DH needs to get his head round this , he is passively accepting your dd’s “choice” it seems, but a choice from coercion is not a real choice at all.

There is a feeling of blackmail about all of this.
Why would a young couple feel so entitled to money from parents.
Many young people work very hard to pay rent/mortgage themselves so why do LB & DD believe their parents/in laws should pay things for them particularly as there are other DD.

Have you told DD1 that she can come and stay with GDs any time ,

I know accusations of narcissistic personality disorder are tossed around here a lot, but this son in law really does seem to fit the bill. He's dangerous. Probably not physically dangerous, but dangerous in that he will leave OP completely impoverished and feel no guilt or any obligation to pay them back. And he's also charming many narcissists.

What a horrific time you have had.

From a financial point of view it's the "norm" that when something like that happens you do lose out financially as insurance never pays out enough to truly cover all costs. Very easy to say actually you now have debt issues that will not be resolved for many years.

I wonder if the parents just hear their version of events.
I remember my dds boyfriend crying here one day and DD said his parents were awful to him and really nasty people.
Fortunately I am a woman of the world and so kept an open mind and it turns out he had stolen money for them to buy weed!!! They are actually lovely parents. I spoke to dd and her bf and told them in no uncertain terms that his behaviour was unacceptable and I'd have been exactly like his parents. They obviously had to admit this and I also spoke to his mum to offer support and tell her what I had spoken to him about.
If I'd just listened to the two of them I'd have carried on thinking that bf parents were nasty people!!

From them not for!!

I think the message was the right thing to do, although it may be the ammunition lb needs to postpone the meeting again, you need to question her version of reality gently every now and then in the hope that it will get her thinking and hopefully get her back.