Dating a muslim man

[Lozalot]

My partner is muslim. We have a wonderful relationship and I have never been happier with someone. By muslim that I mean he was raised by a muslim family, however he is not a practising muslim (out of his own choice he does not pray or even fast at ramadan). However he still believes. He has essentially told me that if we are to stay together and get married that I must covert. For me I feel this is very unfair as he does not even practise the religion. I am a strict athiest and to say I believe in any form of religion goes against my nature and principles. However we have a very happy and loving relationship so now I find myself in an awful position. Should I give him an ultimatum or is there a way we can make it work?

@titnomatani it was very clear that that man wasn't. That point was made when the link was shared.
But they're both men who want things their way because of their 'culture' that they don't actually respect themselves but get upset when they see women not 'respecting' it.

Woah, where in the 'all girls but I want a boy' thread does the OP say her husband is a Muslim?!

The OP in that other thread says her husband is Pakistani and is of a different race to herself (white, French). Pakistan is a v predominately Muslim country but hey, for arguments sake, sure the man in question could be an ethnic minority and be a white christian Pakistani. Nonetheless, as this thread has argued it is not the religion per de but the culture that’s the issue at hand and which v clearly is the issue in the other thread too. So do please check before you indirectly accuse people of making sweeping assumptions and generalisations.

Agree with the poster who said to be wary as he may become more religious after getting married and particularly when children arrive.
I was brought upa Catholic. My siblings and I barely attended church as adults. Dbro only attended church for weddings and funerals.
However , he insisted on marrying in a Catholic Church and was adamant that his dcs attend a Catholic school. He now attends church on a regular basis.

Why can’t he convert to atheism????

I would just like to say that some of the responses to my OP have been pretty ignorant. I can understand where my partner is coming from because that’s the culture he was brought up in and in his world that’s ‘the thing to do’. However, if it’s choosing between losing him or losing my own principles I think I know what is more important.
Thanks to all of the responses that provided anecdotes and advice, I really appreciate it.
It is a shame as we are so in love with one another but unfortunately our upbringings and expectations for our futures are not compatible. Thanks again everyone.

I don't think people are being ignorantOP. I think they are sincerely raising questions and challenges for you to consider, but those questions and challenges aren't necessarily what you wanted to hear.

Unfortunately, the idea of men wanting freedom from religious and cultural obligations whilst long term wanting a wife/partner to meet those obligations isn't that uncommon. It's almost like settling down reminds them how much easier/better their life is if they can conveniently outsource the wife work and that's dressed up as religion/culture because at that point it is convenient.

All credit to you for taking on board what people have said, however uncomfortable some it was. You sound great and like you need a partner who will accept all of you.

Love, I’m not sure who exactly you feel has been ignorant, but if it’s any of those telling you how it’ll turn out, please listen because it ALWAYS starts like this, and always ends BADLY.

I’m relieved to see you’re realistic and have seen that your not compatible, you’ve just saved yourself and awful lot of shit, and if you were unfortunate to have kids with him, them too.

My ex wasn’t even that devout, and still isn’t, but he made my life a living hell. He told me it’s against Islam to force a conversion. We were never married, but we went to his land and it was like a switch was flicked.

Save yourself the hassle and heartbreak, save yourself the therapy bills, save years of wasted life and bring this relationship to a close.

It is not only about religion but cultural expectations, same as in our culture where women sometimes stay in horribly damaging relationships because of their vows, the intrinsic belief the kids will be damaged madly by divorce or the stigma of being becoming a, god forbid, single parent. We are hammered in the idea that you “always have to protect your marriage/relationship for the sake of the children, even if the best for the children is for the parents to split.
It is the same for him, his cultural upbringing dictates he should marry a Muslim, he has grown with that for long enough so your refusal to convert can look to him very easily as if you do not love him enough.

Problem is that although you can take a person out of their cultural context you cannot take the cultural context out of them so easily or at all. In the same way you have ingrained values about keeping and protecting your own beliefs, they also have the same. Problem is that the difference between your cultural expectation to feel free to have no faith clashes massively with his cultural expectation that you can only marry a Muslim. I don’t think you will be able to go past this issue especially at his cultural background will automatically get him nearer to his church and faith if he gets married, and more so if kids come along.

I would end up thibgs in a friendly way before things get messy.

Haven't read the whole thread but I've been married to a Muslim man for 17 years. I did not convert and he never asked me.

I need to post from another point of view. I converted, I was not asked to but wanted to because there was no other way. We are going to break up as he couldn't leave him family unhappy. In some ways it felt like making a mockery of the religion because I was only doing it to get married. But the main feeling was fuck it, religion is all made up bullshit so if you have to fake it to be with the person you love then why not?! I agree OP very ignorant responses but don't expect anyone to understand outside of their own narrow minds

I was not asked to but wanted to because there was no other way.

So you werent asked, but you were told it was convert or split?

The fact that you assume people have no experience of religion or particular religions, means your view is narrow and you cant see past it.

@Newbie1981 that’s what I considered too, my friend even likened it to ‘playing a part, like dress up’ but that’s his core beliefs and I feel I’d actually be disrespectful by living a lie. Thanks for your post, I haven’t found many people on the internet in the same position. Sorry things couldn’t work out, from one broken hearted gal to another!

He would also be disrespecting his own beliefs and living a lie. You would be as wrong in forcing him to put his beliefs to the side as he is by asking you to ignore yours.

Honestly, if you both are equally entrenched, neither of you are right, neither of you are wrong. You are just incompatible.

This is the same as wanting to have children, if one wants kids and the other doesn’t you just move on and find someone who is more compatible with what is important to you.

"religion is all made up bullshit so if you have to fake it to be with the person you love then why not?!"

Right, so what happens if the OP's partner suddenly becomes devout and wants to impose on her all the most restrictive parts of his religion? Even if she's only 'faking it?' Is it easy to walk away then?

Well he has told you from the beginning that he wants a muslim wife so why are you acting all confused about this? He has told you what he wants.
Sorry to say but hes with you knowing you're an atheist because you are just the fun side of sex. He is never going to take you home to his family.
Do they even know that you are living together? Probably not. Hes going to waste your time getting you to convert.

The only advice I can give is if you're going to marry him , then you need to really read up on the religion , it will work in your favour and you can question him on his intentions.
For example, you say he doesn't fast in ramadan or pray. They are two of the pillars of the religion. Praying is the difference between a Muslim and a non Muslim, so if he doesn't pray then he's not a Muslim , that's according to the religion. So ask him again if he considers himself a Muslim or not..? In the religion there's no such thing as practising or non practising, you're either Muslim or not. Now I know if you bring this topic up with him, he may start praying and get religious, but at least you get to see this before marrying him.
I'm assuming you're both sleeping together, sex outside marriage is one of the biggest sins in the religion. Marrying an aethiest isn't the biggest sin, but sex outside marriage is.

Do not marry this man or convert. Find someone more suitable to you!

Yes, I have questioned him so much on the religion. He has gone against pretty much all the pillars. But I think in his case it is cultural expectations that are the biggest barrier for the relationship. He is from a small village in Indonesia, even things such as circumcision and ceremonies for marriage and children are always done and he has not experienced any different.
Therefore although he has not followed the rules of the religion, I think he still wants to follow the traditions that come with it as that is what he feels is right.
I feel the exact same way about my British traditions.
I think if we cannot compromise or find a middle ground, it’s not possible.
For example, I believe my children should have a choice of whether they want to follow a religion or not. He tells me he feels similarly but at the same time he would like to teach his children about Islam... I worry that this would then turn into expectations of them becoming muslim, he has so much hope that I can believe and his children can believe, but I cannot be brainwashed. I already have my beliefs.
The hope is there as we would love to find some middle ground but unfortunately I just don’t think it’s possible, we are talking about polar-opposite cultures.
Thanks so much everyone for your advice. It is very sad that on a day to day basis these topics aren’t even brought up but when thinking about the bigger picture and our future, it looks like religion and culture will tear us apart.

So, if he wants a muslim wife, does this mean he will want you to cover yourself up? Have you discussed this with him?

The fact he wants a muslim wife, suggests he wants an old fashioned version of such a wife, adhering to the rules he sets.

To those who say it's not a misogynistic religion, it is inherently, as is all religion, pretty much because they were all written by men and used such writings as a way to control their women throughout time. Why are the men of the muslim faith allowed to wear what they want, but women have to be covered up?

OP, a year isn't that long, you probably don't really know him that well if this has taken you by surprise. He may become even more religious after marriage, then what? How about if you have a daughter and he starts demanding that she'll need to be covering herself up?

OP

You are so right it is about culture and not religion.
Like I mentioned, my dh is also Catholic and the way they practice is totally different from what I was taught.

I had to retrain my dh in many unrealistic expectations put on males and social rules he followed - all imposed by his culture.

The family and societal pressure to follow the rules is huge. If he cannot go against it now, he must probably won't in the future when you are married and have kids

I am so sorry you are in this position. It is not easy and hurts a lot now.
In the medium/ long run, you will be happy

Learning about Islam for children in the UK generally involves going to Madrassa for two hours every day throughout childhood, in my experience. There are a number of tests and children are often ranked in order of performance so they usually feel a lot of pressure to do well. It does often cause scheduling difficulties which make other after-school hobbies and clubs impossible and is a pretty big commitment- would your partner expect that his children would attend a Madrassa and how would you feel about it?

Male circumcision is often (not always) carried out at an older age- around 7- without anaesthesia. This does vary widely so check what the norm is in your partner's village. Girls are often subject to FGM (female 'circumcision') in Indonesia- about 50% have undergone it. Is this practice carried out where your partner is from? FGM is illegal in this country and is considered to be child abuse (rightly).

I think you're probably better off leaving this relationship but if you do consider staying, then you should do as much research as you can about both his religion and the culture and practices of his Indonesian village and consider your findings carefully.

@Lozalot pls also think about if you have children with him. You've already mentioned circumcision but what about if you have girls? How would you feel about FGM?

The ignorance shown on his thread is so outstanding that I’m actually impressed.

Male circumcision is often (not always) carried out at an older age- around 7- without anaesthesia

Just to note, in the UK it's usually performed on newborns by GPs and with anaesthesia- so check if your partner would be happy with that or whether he'd need it done in the tradition of his village and-if so- what that tradition is, if it's something you're considering.