Dating a muslim man

[Lozalot]

My partner is muslim. We have a wonderful relationship and I have never been happier with someone. By muslim that I mean he was raised by a muslim family, however he is not a practising muslim (out of his own choice he does not pray or even fast at ramadan). However he still believes. He has essentially told me that if we are to stay together and get married that I must covert. For me I feel this is very unfair as he does not even practise the religion. I am a strict athiest and to say I believe in any form of religion goes against my nature and principles. However we have a very happy and loving relationship so now I find myself in an awful position. Should I give him an ultimatum or is there a way we can make it work?

The man is a hypocrite. And controlling

If you stay with him you’ll have to convert to Islam and raise your children Islam aswell

Is this what you want?

Personally I think you need to run as fast as you can. It’s one rule for him but another for you

Many years ago, I was also in a similar position. I adored him, and he was desperate to marry me. He spent hours with one of the teachers at his mosque, who confirmed that I absolutely wouldn't need to convert, and he tried to convince me that nothing would need to change at my end.

Where we got stuck, though, was his assumption that our children would automatically be raised a Muslims. I wouldn't get a say because that was just how it worked. I just couldn't see past that, and we split up.

Going to share my experience, for what's it's worth (about 1p!) Slightly different in that for the bigger part of our relationship I was the religious one and my husband was essentially agnostic (leaning into Christianity maybe but not a believer or practitioner in any way). I can tell you now that it brought heartache to me, it brought grief, and, at times, it brought anger. Why? Because, at times, I allowed his actions to act upon my own. Despite all that though, over time and of his own volition, he has eventually been baptised. Would that same thing have happened if he'd been atheist? Absolutely not. I doubt I would have ever dated him in the first place.

That does raise an interesting question, why did your partner begin dating you knowing you're atheist? Most atheists (perhaps all I don't know) that I've ever met are as hard line in their atheism as I am in my faith. You're not coming from a place of "maybe" or "there's something more but I can't define it", you're coming from a hard-line "there is no God". For me, even at times where I have been less-active in my faith, would have been a no-go zone - even in the short-term.

Our marriage and family is stronger than ever before, but there have certainly been times when I have felt nothing but depression at the situation. Going to Church and seeing other couples and families around me, thinking "why couldn't I have that?". Those feelings were all internal, they were never something others made me feel but they were there in my own internal thoughts. Yes there were times that it caused me problems in both my marriage and my faith, it's been a very rocky road and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Yes, it all worked out for me but it so easily might not have. I can count the number of women in a similar position in my own congregation, but where their husband's range from apathetic through to out-right antagonism towards my faith. I would imagine that your partner will possibly seek guidance on the wisdom of marrying outside of his faith, someone who is atheist and he'll (most likely) hear stories similar to mine from his wider faith community.

Your opening post was quite telling, you say he's not active but he believes. Even without his family or cultural background, that's a huge thing to get over and I'm not sure if it will ever be possible without major change from one or both of you.

I would be wary op. One of my friend's father is Muslim and her mum is white English. All fine until she got to about 12 and then he became very religious and sent her to live in Pakistan with her aunt. After being raised in England, it was a shock and then had an arranged marriage to a close family member. She's since divorced and her father is estranged from her and her mum has to visit her in secret.

Definitely do not convert. Not even just to keep up appearances. Do not do it.

@SimonJT
Islam , Judaism and Christianity share beliefs in the prophets etc. plus they are all monotheistic and patriarchal to a varying degree but to assert that they are all the same? Sorry I don’t see it at all .

Islam , Judaism and Christianity share beliefs in the prophets etc. plus they are all monotheistic and patriarchal to a varying degree but to assert that they are all the same?

They are (at least imo) absolutely not the same.

But that's not the point. Just like the question of Islam being misogynist simply isn't the issue in this case.

This man wants the OP to convert / makes it a condition for marriage.

This is not inherently wrong imo. We all have a right to freely decide who we do not want to marry for whatever reason. But I do think that it's very manipulative to only communicate that now. (saying that he has a preference is not the same as making it an absolute condition!!

Anyhow.
Why does he want a conversion?

A. Due to his personal believes. Which would (most likely) mean that he would want at least a partially Muslim 'family life'. Circumcision, the OP adapting to a certain extend etc.

B. He himself does not care but is insisting on it for his family.

Option a would probably fairly problematic for most atheists.
Option b however seems worse to me. Because in option b he's placing his family's wishes above the OP's (lack) of religious convictions. Someone that goes that far to please his family would probably also expect other concessions from the OP and their children to make his family happy...

Ultimately the choice has to be yours but I think that if you as an atheist can happily love and respect someone with different beliefs then he should also be able to do the same thing. Without sounding harsh, if he wants to marry a Muslim woman why is he dating and living with someone who isn't Muslim? That's basically him saying that he will only be with you if you do what he wants, which doesn't sound very loving to me. Also, I don't know whether you want children together but how would you feel about raising your children to follow a faith that you don't believe in? And would he be happy for you to teach them both sides of your points of view and let them decide? It doesn't sound likely. I was in a similar situation to yourself many years ago and looking back now I realise how much of a hypocrite he actually was.

OP, my parents were of different faiths. My DF was non practising and never expected my DM to convert or anything. My Grandparents (his parents) had very different views. They refused to come to their wedding (eventually came last minute), treated my mum badly throughout their marriage and when my DF was very ill and sadly passed away, despite them promising him they would help my DM as a single mum with me and my siblings they didn’t at all . We see nothing of his family now. All because they disapproved of her being a different religion.

His parents may like you but you aren’t the one they want him to marry. You are temporary.

My opinion is that partners need to accept each other as they are.

If in time one of you wants to change, that's fine; but you can't enter into a relationship with the intention of changing the other person. It is not the basis for a successful partnership/marriage/whatever.

I was raised by non practicing muslims. Somehow I was still forced to abstain from pork incase I wouldn’t be able to find a husband. Hate to think what my mother would have done to me if I were born a boy.

As an atheist you will find it very hard to be married to anyone that believed in god to be honest . Even if he is not practising you say he believes . What about your children ?
I am married to a muslim
Man and i converted after marriage . He never put it as a rule to marry him though .
I was christian and i did believe in god though .

Ph and to people who say you dont need to convert and that muslim
Man can marry anyone they want is false . The can marry "people of the book" which is essentially christian jews or muslims

Why would you ask anyone to lie to their god? I don't get it. That's what 'converting' is, let's face it: Asking you to put on a show for the world despite the fact that god would know it was a lie.

Basically he is willing to push you into that in order to save face with others. If he can be that insulting to his God, I don't think he knows what it is to love and respect another person either.

He's a charlatan and a piss taker. I'd be looking to move out.

My friend wanted to marry a man who had the same faith as her. Life took her on a path where she met and fell for someone who wasn't Jewish so she asked him to convert. He agreed. I guess she wanted a wholly Jewish family. They aren't orthodox but they are practising.

But he did have the same faith as her. He converted for her because he wanted to br with her. Not because he had an overwhelming desire to become jewish. It worse than asking a spouse to become blonde.

I just find it odd that having a person of the Jewish faith was so important to her, she would have walked away. Yet married someone who took the faith simply to marry her. Not because they wanted to.

frazzledasarock is spot on.
Don't do this as this is exactly what happened to someone I know...Muslim guy was amazing before marriage, drank alcohol, ate everything, absolutely zero signs of following Islam....then she got married to him and OMG the change was terrifying.

He didn't ask her to convert but he was abusive (verbally), controlling and strict adherence and expectations to what a Muslim wife should be.
They had 2 DC and then he said he had family connections in Iran - he had never mentioned this connection ever in the 5 years before the DC.
Too much to say on here but just don't go there. Just don't.

I would be wary of any man who said i “must” do anything. Wouldn’t matter if it was about religion or anything else!

I have 2 separate friends who have Muslim fathers and white british non-religious mothers. They both grew up with emotional abuse and domestic violence. They were both raised Muslim but never felt like they fully belonged in that community and now feel guilty that their faith has lapsed. They're both in therapy because of the psychological scars of their childhood and so many issues of identity.

I wouldn't wish that on my children, would you?

I just find it odd that having a person of the Jewish faith was so important to her, she would have walked away. Yet married someone who took the faith simply to marry her. Not because they wanted to.

It's possible that he had some vague believe beforehand. Going from strict atheism like the OP to a genuine conversion seems unlikely to me, yes. But from some sort of monotheistic position? More plausible imo.

And we do not know why he ultimately took the faith. Converting to Judaism (particularly orthodox but also reform and masorti) is a lot of work. You need to study the religion, usually also the Hebrew language, immerse yourself in the community of your Rabi, go before a court (the court may very well say no), undergo circumcision (or spill a ritualistic drop of blood if already circumcised) and step into the mikveh.

It's a lot of work and also costs money. It's imo therefore a fairly convincing show of some sort of commitment.

As for the why?

I obviously do not know what she thought.

But conversion is ultimately also a promise to hold up the commandments, isn't it?

Sure, believing is one of them. But there are others. 🤷🏻‍♀️

And I would guess that it ultimately is about the education of the children and family life for most believers... Or simply about appeasing their family which seems much more problematic to me.

Anyhow, think it's perfectly fine to not marry somebody for whatever reason.

As long as that is communicated clearly. Definitely before moving in. And no, communicating some sort of preference isn't the same as making it clear that it is a real, hard limit.

And it seems to me as if it the OP is really incompatible with her OH...
Knowing when to cut your losses is a skill as well.

Why would he want you to convert if it doesn't come with any meaningful commitment to Islam or to raise your kids as Muslim? May as well not bother.

If it does come with some kind of meaningful commitment, what does that look like? It doesn't sound as if you are capable of supplying it.

I am not baptised but I do have beliefs in God and I am comfortable with much of the more liberal side of CofE teaching, so I was comfortable getting married in church, making serious promises in the presence of God and doing marriage prep classes (which I found really helpful actually), which was meaningful to my partner (I would have happily married elsewhere).

However, where we got married doesn't really change much of the day to day aspects of our relationship and actually our values are significantly aligned. We agree on how much religion we would expose our children to, what types of Christian teachings we are comfortable with and what we think is required of us day to day. Had my husband had very evangelical beliefs that, for example, held out specific roles for men and women, strongly emphasised that being gay was sinful etc, I think we would have struggled to agree on those values.

I have a friend who is a (non evangelical but committed) Christian married to a man who would describe himself as atheist. She doesn't expect him to believe, she doesn't expect him to go to church (though he does attend for special occasions and quite likes the ritual), but they have agreed that she can take them to church and he will not undermine the beliefs of their children - ie he won't say that he doesn't think that God is real until they are old enough to debate it and discuss it properly. And then they will let their children decide.

I think your bf is showing you that he perhaps has some traditional values under there and you need to understand what those look like.

I suspect that really when he says he wants a Muslim wife there are some duties and obligations attached to that, but you need to discuss that with him and find that out for yourself.

@CravingCheese I think it's the extreme views with regards to wanting a boy from the H in the other thread that PP was referring to

That thread about the woman pregnant with her 5th girl is in fact relevant in the case of the OP

Will it happen? Maybe yes maybe no. But it is a possibility and the so called dh in the other thread is not even religious

Did I say run? Just in case, I will say it again. RUN!

Even 50-odd years ago people who weren't Catholic, who married Catholics, didn't have to convert. My parents are a case in point - one DP Catholic, the other not (Christened into the CofE church, but not practising at any stage of their life beyond that).

They were even married by a young, enthusiastic priest from a leading Catholic training college in the UK at their chapel - and even that priest/the training college didn't expect the non-Catholic parent to convert! I know this is a bit off-topic, but it does annoy me when Catholicism is the 'go-to' religion for examples of intolerance in marriage and rules. Yes, there are 'rules', and yes we're 'supposed' to follow them, but in reality, it's a rare parish where it's not realised that 'most of the rules were made by men, not by God/Jesus' is the prevailing theory. Of course, there are some priests/Bishops who aren't that tolerant, but it's the same in every faith!

However, I have not heard of the same kind of 'elastic tolerance' in the Muslim faith for those who are suddenly not so 'western' when the chips are down. And yes, it does seem to be the women who need to toe the line in dress, actions, family life etc., rather than the men. What's more disturbing, is that the Koran does not prescribe the kind of coverings of body/head/face the hardliners are so keen on. Again, man-made rules, not 'God-made' rules... there's a surprise!

I just know that you could not tell a Catholic women from any other woman walking down the street. I don't have to cover my head or my body outside of the house. I would cover my shoulders in a church - that is respectful - but other than that? Nope, no expectation that I should.

OP, it's these little things that matter when you are contemplating an interfaith marriage. How much 'leeway' is there really? And how much is sanctioned/allowed by the faith itself, and how much is 'imposed' by individual followers because they choose to impose those things?

Tread carefully.

It’s unfair to ask - well demands - that someone converts (especially by a non practicing person). I could just about understand if you were living in a Muslim theocracy (and it would make life easier) but not here.

I have seen that ‘concerts’ generally take on the cultural norms of the ‘religion’ more than the religion itself which tells you all you need to know about their other half’s grasp of their own religion. I find it controlling and very dismissive of the prospective spouses culture and upbringing.

The problem is that our idea of "religion" is based on the enlightenment Protestant idea, which is something essentially private, nothing to do with the state. Neither Islam not Judaism (except perhaps in its most liberal form) is really a religion in that sense. So converting to Judaism is just throwing in your lot with the Jewish people. Belief doesn't really come into it.