What would you do next? Am I over reacting?

[WhatWouldYouDoNext]

Hi all. This is going to be quite long for clarity. Sorry and thanks for reading.

I have been very close friends with a married man for around 8 years. I'm also friendly with his wife but have a lot more in common with him. It's all above board - our families have holidayed and spent Christmas together, there are no concerns about impropriety.

Around the start of the summer, his behaviour towards me started to change - I feel like he 'argues' with me now for the sake of it (claims to be playing Devil's Advocate but also to hold these views dear, yet has also contradicted himself); has started 'picking' on me - finding fault in what I'm saying; saying things I can only assume are intended to undermine my confidence - things like telling me men have looked at me in 'disgust' or that my 'ego is showing' when I'm simply not being down on myself and that I'm single due to my resting bitch face (joke!). That kind of thing.

We play in a band together. We've gigged a lot over the summer and some of them have included overnight stays and have been a lot of fun so I didn't say anything - not wanting to create an unpleasant atmosphere for the others - and largely dealt with it by ignoring and avoiding but it hasn't made much impact. I did try telling him that his behaviour towards me had changed and I didn't like it but rather than asking what I meant or opening a dialogue, he just said, "I could say the same about you" and shut it down.

A couple of mutual friends suggested he feels threatened by my new friendships within band and is feeling pushed out; that he is jealous because I play a 'higher profile' instrument than he does - not only does this mean that I'm more 'visible' than he is but that if I can't make a gig/left band, I'd have to be replaced whereas he wouldn't. It's been suggested that he is struggling to find his place in the band and that he is trying to be 'blokey' to fit in with the men better - I know that a couple of people find him a bit 'try hard' with a particular persona he has pushed.

I don't disagree with any of that and I think that all of it is relevant. I agree that he has found it socially difficult with them but he really likes them and loves being in the band. I agree that all of those are probably an issue for him. But none of them are my fault or my problem to solve.

However, in the event that I had inadvertently 'pushed him out', at the start of September, I resolved to make more of an effort to spend time with him. Although, the only reason I was spending less time with him was because of how he was behaving towards me.

Nevertheless, I have seen him a few times over the past few weeks and it seemed to all be relatively back to normal. No issues except for maybe a couple of little comments that I didn't like but I wasn't sure if I was just more 'sensitive' to things he was saying now. But there wasn't anything specifically unkind that was directed towards me. So I started to see it as having been resolved.

Anyway, fast forward to a few days ago. We travel to/from band practise together and, at the end of practise, he said it was time to go and he straighted his arm out and put his outstretched hand into my face to push me backwards/aside. I was horrified and stunned. We'd been talking to another man who was visibly shocked by it. I felt humiliated and didn't know how to react.

What I wish I'd done was say, "what the fuck are you doing? Don't you ever fucking touch me like that again!" What I did was try and laugh it off and said to the other man, "he's a bit of a twat, isn't he?" to which my 'friend' laughed and said, "yes I am" but he was behind me and halfway out the door by this point. The other guy just looked a bit shocked and didn't reply.

I had to travel home with him but didn't speak to him and just said I was tired when he asked what the matter was. He was talking about us going out at the weekend so clearly didn't see anything wrong in what he'd done.

I have a long standing history of abuse stemming from childhood and following on to a number of abusive relationships, that still impacts on me now and, coincidentally, the following day, I had a pre-assessment appointment for therapy to deal with this. Which i why I'm not sure if I'm overreacting to this because now I feel I have completely shut down to him. I no longer consider him a friend. I want nothing more to do with him. I don't want to see, speak to, or even be in the same room as him again.

I can deal with the family/friendship side of it - I will just have nothing to do with him but I don't know what to do about band. I don't want to be in practises with him. I don't want to do gigs with him. I don't want to see him in any capacity whatsoever. But I don't see a solution. I could leave but we have several gigs coming up in the next couple of months and I'd be leaving them massively in the shit.

I've since mentioned it to one person in the band who feels that I ought to give it no energy, put it down to being his problem and not let it affect me but I've woken up again thinking about it , feeling angry and with my heart pounding. So I thought I'd bring it here.

What would you do next?

@AnotherEmma is a the sort of message I'd send but i'd remove the thank you. Dickheads don't get thank yous.

Or just ignore... because You do not have to reply when someone messages you.

He knows what he's doing, even if he pretends not to, so you don't need to send a lengthy message to explain it.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

I think I might try to get there early and say quietly to him, ahead of the meeting (but ideally with witnesses around) that you were a bit upset at him pushing your face the last time you saw each other and that given your history you've been a bit distant with him since. Ask him quietly and gently why he did that. You both know why he did it, but put him on the spot. Chances are he'll splutter a bit, act hurt and avoid you for the rest of the evening. The rest of the team will then have your genuine (and verifiable) upset at a witnessed incident vs his 'feel sorry for me' reaction to weigh up when considering the matter. I strongly suspect they will prefer to side with you!

So what are you going to do then?
What's your magic solution if you don't want to send a single one line message?
We understand that there is history with him but that's not actually relevant any more. He is not that person any more.

If anyone asks you what's going on, stick to the following and maintain an attitude of hurt rather than anger:

1. You used to be good friends but not getting on so well recently
2. He's made a fair number of negging comments and been off with you on multiple occasions
3. He shoved your face either by accident or on purpose last time you saw each other, and didn't apologise - with your history this made you understandably upset

Stick to those and you'll be good.

I wouldn't message.

If/when he (or someone else) directly asks you can say "you ended the friendship when you deliberately shoved me hard in the face and you know it" and shut don't any replies with "stop lying you and I both know the truth here I'm not interested in hearing your lies or gaslighting" and walk off and go practice or if at the end pack up and leave. To other people you add he's been a complete manipulative dick and the last straw was when he deliberately shoved me hard in face but enough about that, let's get on with practice"

Continue to brazen it out.

Perhaps you do need to speak to the band leader today. I think you tell him/her that Dick knows you very well and is a self confessed manipulative game player and since the summer has turned on you and that he deliberately shoved you hard in the face knowing that you are have been a victim of DV. That you do not want to leave the band, that you know he is going to play the victim. That as far as the rest of the band is concerned he has been a dick and he is no longer friend just a fellow band member and you would like their support in it Not escalating.

X posts with others

I say return to the earlier plan when explaining to others - "he's been a bit of a dick recently, we are not as friendly as we once were" and to him, I agree if you are going to spend time with him a complete block doesn't work but perhaps think of a one liner for him that will get you through and that he can't feed off too much or point to your being 'unreasonable' maybe 'we've not been getting on so well recently, I'd like to have a bit of distance, thanks". This phrase might be good for shared lift situations or just to bring a conversation to a close in a small room.

I would leave the band tbh. I wouldn't want to have to defend or justify myself to people who were minimising his behaviour. It's a shit situation but I'd rather find another band to play in.

I wouldn't want to be part of anything where he knew where I was or could cause trouble for me. Which I think he will. He's not worth the angst.

RandomMess

Thanks. The thing is, people on here can only imagine the set up and the personalities and the dynamics etc involved. I know what them in the sense that I can predict reactions and responses. I think your suggestion for a message to the band leader is good. I think he'd 'get' that.

I do want to clarify it wasn't a hard shove but it was a push. One of the women asked me to demonstrate on her exactly what he did with the same level of force - it was a firm and deliberate push aside but not a hard shove. She said it was enough.

To other people the whole thing might nor seem like very much but I know him.

I wouldn't want to be part of anything where he knew where I was or could cause trouble for me. Which I think he will.
That's definitely where I was at the start of the week but now there's no fucking chance I'm just going to leave.

Can you speak to the band leader in person rather than text?

Another line to consider using publicly to dick "you know its never ok to push (manhandle??) a woman ever and that was the last straw after your manipulative behaviour over summer" if he apologises you can say "apology accepted but our friendship is over but I'm sure you can remain civil for the sake of the band as I have been all these months"

Ensure you dump the responsibility for the atmosphere staying ok on him.

If it doesn't work out and you do end up leaving at least you have it a good go whereas just leaving could be unnecessary.

you are making a meal of this!

Towel's advice which is to cut him off, explain he is a dick and you are not up for entertaining that nonsense in your life is all that is required.

You were at the group last night, you are fixated on other peoples reactions and relationships, and it's not for you to do this

The more you over think this the worse it is going to be.

Other people saw what he did, they KNOW how he is with you, and all you need to do is draw the line and move on.

Ah, I hadn't quite grasped you'd be in close quarters tomorrow. Well in that case, I'd harness your outrage.

Message dickhead to say "I can't believe you are trying to act like nothing happened after what you did. I can't even talk to you I'm so angry." Any response from him can be ignored or at most "If you really don't know then that's a massive problem because you've been so far over the line."

Call the band leader and have a "he is being a dick" conversation maybe make it slightly more by saying "you have probably noticed X being a dick repeatedly then expecting me to give instant forgiveness again and again." You can then say you have fallen out because you aren't going to give instant forgiveness any more.

Then be coolly polite to him in company. Mainly converse with others. Remember the tone of being outraged at his behaviour while staying polite and drama free for the sake of the group. If he tries to get into a drama then you can publicly state the same as on the texts. Do not under any circumstances go into detail of events. The closest you could get is an angry "Go home and think about it. If you still can't remember what you've done, you'd better see a doctor."

He's the one most likely to escalate and look like a dick. You can look best by having mentioned the being a dick and demanding instant forgiveness / pretending he didn't do stuff he actually did. Then any whining on his part "but I don't know why she's being so meeeaaaannnn" will be met with hard stares and no sympathy. Especially as you have those who know about the face shove.

Tbh, if I were a member of the band, when we get together without you and him to have a good chinwag about "ooh, what really happened" and all start comparing examples of his behaviour, it wouldn't be long before someone will say "Christ, if he'd shove her in the face in public in front of another man, what does he do when nobody else is around!"

You'll only come out worse if you start wrestling in the weeds with him. Rise above. He is a dick. It will show. You are not a dick it will show. The band will want to keep you and lose him.

He knows EXACTLY what he is doing with you AND with the rest of the group. He is attempting to make you look like the crazy one. You are not. You know this. If you look like you feel guilty or are second-guessing yourself, other people will respond to this. You need to start getting angry and reclaiming your rights with this arse. You know that you have more strength as a band member and so does he. You know that he has behaved horribly and illegally. I suspect he will try and bring things to a head in front of the other band members, and you need to stand your ground. This is going to be very difficult for you because of your history, and he absolutely knows this and is counting on it. You need to say in front of witnesses something like “I have spoken to you about how the way you treat me has changed and has become offensive. You have belittled and humiliated me, and been downright hostile. When I have spoken to you about this, you have denied this. Because of this, I have been avoiding being alone with you, and I know that you can’t have missed this. Last week when you shoved me, you proved once and for all that actions speak even louder than words. Take the hint and accept that we are NEVER going to be friends again, because I do not hate myself enough to fall for your shit ever again!!!”

I wouldn’t send any message.
If he tried the passive aggressive I’m a victim shit the next time you meet up. Wait for him to finish his spiel, say
“you have been verbally and physio abusive towards me. Stay away from me and do not contact me as that will be harassment.”
Then turn your back and walk away.
You owe him nothing.
And do it every single time.
Change the narrative.
And, I mean this in a nice way, stop looking for other people’s reactions and behaviours as validation for how you feel.
If you are not happy with his behaviour then that is enough.
YOU choose YOUR boundaries and it doesn’t matter how well meaning anyone else is, they don’t.

What justilou said but much shorter.

“I have spoken to you about the way you treat me before. I have had enough. We are NEVER going to be friends again. I will not fall for your shit ever again!!!”

Avoid detail. He will zero in on it. People like him always do.

They tend to be like Aha! you said I stabbed you on Tuesday afternoon but it was more like Tuesday lunch time. Also you actually said "Get that knife away from me you twat" not what you just claimed of "Get that blade away from me you dick" so ha ha argument destroyed bitch, you can't complain about being stabbed.

Avoid any detail whatsoever.

He put hands on you. Every man and woman in the world knows that's not OK. Nothing needs explaining.

Sorry no specific advice but what a dick this man is

OP Having read this thread I think you are so focussed on everyone else...the band the band leader the friend the women you have told...even MNetters!
You actually need to focus on you and only you. What are your wants and needs? What plan fits with those wants and needs. How will you carry out your plan? How will you handle the possible consequences. Worrying about what others may or may not do/say is clouding your thoughts.
This is your drama to end...if you want it to. Be clear be certain and back yourself

Because he has been a dick publicly, it is better to leave it to band members to compare stories themselves. There's no need for a big public revelation like announcing he was planting drugs on you or shagging your mum or something. Less is more. Over beers they'll judge him much more harshly than you would even now I bet.

I wouldn't text or message him.
The whole texting each other thing has to stop. If he texts you don't answer the texts. There is no reason for you to answer any of his texts again.
I presume you didn't answer his text last night.

God this thread is making me cry remembering my so similar experience. Towel this is so bang on:
“Avoid detail. He will zero in on it. People like him always do.
They tend to be like Aha! you said I stabbed you on Tuesday afternoon but it was more like Tuesday lunch time. Also you actually said "Get that knife away from me you twat" not what you just claimed of "Get that blade away from me you dick" so ha ha argument destroyed bitch, you can't complain about being stabbed.“

WWYDN you’re right, you know the dynamics best. I think if I had my time again I wouldn’t confront the bad behaviour even though I was in the right as you are. I found to my cost that other people wouldn’t back me up like I thought they would and I was the one who lost in the end.

I would probably just ghost “my” dickhead if I had my time again. Just don’t reply to messages. Be civil in public. Play innocent if called out on it and don’t ever be alone with him again.

I wish now I’d chosen to play a longer game and been able to keep my community rather than naively think honesty and being right would win.

Ghost this fucker. He knows what he has been doing. Or if you want to message him send him something direct about how you feel, eg. 'you pushed me in the face last week, and that action ended our friendship. I will be civil as we have to play together, but let's leave it at that'. Or similar. I know it's hard to be assertive in these situations, maybe just focus on being honest. Tell him you don't feel comfortable with him anymore. Tell him you don't feel like you can trust him anymore. And do it unemotionally, be clear it's just a consequence of what he has done. Shrug and walk off. You just aren't getting on anymore and so the friendship is over. No drama. He is beneath your notice, don't give him any consequence. Wanker.

Oh wow, yeah. You really need to go read Captain Awkward. Someone mentioned her above. Search for "Geek Social Fallacies" and "The Missing Stair." She has a LOT of advice for you about this exact situation. Here's a taster:

captainawkward.com/2015/11/03/784-the-geek-social-fallacy-host-missing-stair-guest-relationship/

captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/

Step 1: A creepy dude does creepy, entitled shit and makes women feel unsafe.

Step 2: The women speak up about it to their partners.

Step 3: It gets written off as “not a big deal” or “he probably didn’t mean it” or “he’s not a bad guy, really.” Any discussion of the bad behavior must immediately be followed by a complete audit of his better qualities or the sad things he’s suffered in the name of “fairness.”
...

Step 4: Everyone is worried about hurting creepy dude’s feelings or making it weird for creepy dude. Better yet, everyone is worried about how the other dudes in the friend group will feel if they are called out for enabling creepy dude. Women are worried that if they push the issue, that the entire friend group will side with creepy dude or that they’ll be blamed for causing “drama.”
...

Step 5: Creepy dude creeps on with his creepy self. He’s learned that there are no real (i.e. “disapproval & pushback from dudes and dude society”) consequences to his actions. Women feel creeped out and unsafe.Some of them decide to take a firm stand against creeping and not come to parties anymore. They slowly slide out of the friend group. Some of the woman decide to just quietly put up with it, because they’ve learned that no one will really side with them and it’s easier to go along than to lose one’s entire community. The whole group works around this missing stair.

Also, anything tagged with "Creep"

'I do want to clarify it wasn't a hard shove but it was a push. One of the women asked me to demonstrate on her exactly what he did with the same level of force - it was a firm and deliberate push aside but not a hard shove. She said it was enough.'

It's that it was in your face which makes it far, far more abnormal IMO! A push would be a bit weird and bad enough, but in the face is clearly disturbing, abusive and bizarre.

'now there's no fucking chance I'm just going to leave.'

Yay! You will get through this and enjoy your band stuff just as much as you did again, I promise you. xxxxx