What would you do next? Am I over reacting?

[WhatWouldYouDoNext]

Hi all. This is going to be quite long for clarity. Sorry and thanks for reading.

I have been very close friends with a married man for around 8 years. I'm also friendly with his wife but have a lot more in common with him. It's all above board - our families have holidayed and spent Christmas together, there are no concerns about impropriety.

Around the start of the summer, his behaviour towards me started to change - I feel like he 'argues' with me now for the sake of it (claims to be playing Devil's Advocate but also to hold these views dear, yet has also contradicted himself); has started 'picking' on me - finding fault in what I'm saying; saying things I can only assume are intended to undermine my confidence - things like telling me men have looked at me in 'disgust' or that my 'ego is showing' when I'm simply not being down on myself and that I'm single due to my resting bitch face (joke!). That kind of thing.

We play in a band together. We've gigged a lot over the summer and some of them have included overnight stays and have been a lot of fun so I didn't say anything - not wanting to create an unpleasant atmosphere for the others - and largely dealt with it by ignoring and avoiding but it hasn't made much impact. I did try telling him that his behaviour towards me had changed and I didn't like it but rather than asking what I meant or opening a dialogue, he just said, "I could say the same about you" and shut it down.

A couple of mutual friends suggested he feels threatened by my new friendships within band and is feeling pushed out; that he is jealous because I play a 'higher profile' instrument than he does - not only does this mean that I'm more 'visible' than he is but that if I can't make a gig/left band, I'd have to be replaced whereas he wouldn't. It's been suggested that he is struggling to find his place in the band and that he is trying to be 'blokey' to fit in with the men better - I know that a couple of people find him a bit 'try hard' with a particular persona he has pushed.

I don't disagree with any of that and I think that all of it is relevant. I agree that he has found it socially difficult with them but he really likes them and loves being in the band. I agree that all of those are probably an issue for him. But none of them are my fault or my problem to solve.

However, in the event that I had inadvertently 'pushed him out', at the start of September, I resolved to make more of an effort to spend time with him. Although, the only reason I was spending less time with him was because of how he was behaving towards me.

Nevertheless, I have seen him a few times over the past few weeks and it seemed to all be relatively back to normal. No issues except for maybe a couple of little comments that I didn't like but I wasn't sure if I was just more 'sensitive' to things he was saying now. But there wasn't anything specifically unkind that was directed towards me. So I started to see it as having been resolved.

Anyway, fast forward to a few days ago. We travel to/from band practise together and, at the end of practise, he said it was time to go and he straighted his arm out and put his outstretched hand into my face to push me backwards/aside. I was horrified and stunned. We'd been talking to another man who was visibly shocked by it. I felt humiliated and didn't know how to react.

What I wish I'd done was say, "what the fuck are you doing? Don't you ever fucking touch me like that again!" What I did was try and laugh it off and said to the other man, "he's a bit of a twat, isn't he?" to which my 'friend' laughed and said, "yes I am" but he was behind me and halfway out the door by this point. The other guy just looked a bit shocked and didn't reply.

I had to travel home with him but didn't speak to him and just said I was tired when he asked what the matter was. He was talking about us going out at the weekend so clearly didn't see anything wrong in what he'd done.

I have a long standing history of abuse stemming from childhood and following on to a number of abusive relationships, that still impacts on me now and, coincidentally, the following day, I had a pre-assessment appointment for therapy to deal with this. Which i why I'm not sure if I'm overreacting to this because now I feel I have completely shut down to him. I no longer consider him a friend. I want nothing more to do with him. I don't want to see, speak to, or even be in the same room as him again.

I can deal with the family/friendship side of it - I will just have nothing to do with him but I don't know what to do about band. I don't want to be in practises with him. I don't want to do gigs with him. I don't want to see him in any capacity whatsoever. But I don't see a solution. I could leave but we have several gigs coming up in the next couple of months and I'd be leaving them massively in the shit.

I've since mentioned it to one person in the band who feels that I ought to give it no energy, put it down to being his problem and not let it affect me but I've woken up again thinking about it , feeling angry and with my heart pounding. So I thought I'd bring it here.

What would you do next?

Theres no doubt in my mind that it will get worse.

When I look back over the years, there have been 'signs' but never directed towards me. Just general comments. There have been a few comments since Christmas but I just disregarded those. The fact he's escalating it is what scares me.

I personally think he probably uses these tactics against his wife and is successful in doing so. She is very laid back and, by her own admission, never says no to him - she doesn't want to be "one of those wives". He is quite a clever manipulator and gets people to do what he wants while making them believe it's in their best interests - sometimes it is ultimately, but he tends to ride roughshod over their boundaries in order to achieve that.

I'm fairly laid back so I don't challenge things unless I have a reason to and I'm happy to go with the flow. The first time this really happened over the summer was because I said no to something and stood my ground. He tried a bit of PA shit on me and I just said, "ok" but didn't engage and did what was best for me anyway. That was the start of it.

I think he just isn't used to people saying no to him and he's furious with me for it and so I need to be punished. That first incident (which, due to circumstances) continued over a whole weekend, is why I started to withdraw - eg didn't see him alone socially and began making my own way to places instead of travelling with him. That appeared to exacerbate it and it was about two of these occasions that he said things to other people in a blatant attempt to manipulate them/make me look bad.

When other people have said they thinks he's hurt and feels he has 'lost' me as I've gained in confidence, I think they have a point. But it's not that he has 'lost' me personally as a friend, more that he feels he has lost control of me.

I've asked already but I'll ask again.
Have you done the Freedom Programme?

Sorry, Emma I did see you'd asked but just hadn't replied.

I started to do it online but didnt find it particularly useful. I've since read that it's better to do it in person.

I think part of the problem is that, I've always felt that most men fall in to one category or another of 'abuser' - my dad, my brother, all of my exes...

If people say anything about him being sad about "losing" you please correct them. Literally say "no he is angry and said that I won't always do what he says"

Yeah I have said that. But they only see a very mild mannered, slightly socially awkward man and I think he brings out their caring sides... 🙄

It's just so out of character with the man they know that even those who know it was witnesses so actually happened feel sorry for him that a) he feels hurt and b) he lacks any other way of expressing himself. Feminists they are not

Fingers crossed Op

The thing about non-feminists is that they still feel the threat, they just don't dare risk confronting a man. When you start brazenly not having it with a dose of He's being a dick. Behaving like a dick. Is a dick. and the sky does not fall in then many of them will jump on the bandwagon. Others will double down on poor troubled man must be supported, be more nice.

Most are fantastically relieved that someone has said what their own spidey-sense says. This realisation was life changing for me in my twenties. Now I say the unthinkable and 90% of the time the atmosphere is "thank god someone said it, me too." There is rapid traction and then it all takes care of itself.

Tomorrow remember that this is new thinking to others. State the situation. Shut down drama. Let them go away and think about their position. The shorter the conversation the better on Saturday.

Some good advice on this thread. The only thing I would say is don't rely on the memory, observation skills or indeed honesty of your witness. He may not have 'seen' what took place, or not have been willing to 'see' it.

Several times in my life I have been utterly confounded by the way that another person can state diametrically opposing accounts of an interaction or incident.

Try not to be too disappointed by what this incident reveals about people. I hope that you can get back to enjoying the music as soon as you can.

Can I just ask, is this a brass band? I'm in one and it seems these kinds of situations are rife - and I don't know why! It's a community like no other!

WhatWouldYouDoNext
I'll just go with dick, I think.

He's being a dick. Behaving like a dick. Is a dick.

..........

Yes :-).
If it walks like a dick, swims like a dick and -quacks- er, makes specific noises that are peculiar to a dick - that is a dick, is it not?

You're doing great!!! Keep it up.

I bet he finds someone else more vulnerable in the group to get close to now. This guy is the one that has “emotional affairs” that never get physical... he gets deeply close to women by giving the impression that he’s harmless and hopeless, and then fucks them up because he’s a dangerous, misogynistic arse who likes to be worshipped.

Thanks.

Towel yes, you're absolutely right.

I'm feeling incredibly.disloyal though too. We've been friends for so long! There is a voice in the back of my head that keeps popping up with, "what if..?"s but then I think back to what he's actually said and done and if he were a boyfriend, I'd have dumped him for this. I'd have dumped him for a lot less/a while ago tbh, it would never have got this far.

I didn't reply to his message the other day - it was on whatsapp and I only read it on preview so I didn't even 'read' it.

He messaged me again last night when I was out asking about this thing tonight so I do need to reply today. I can't just ignore it. I'm going to read back over the suggestions.

I know I sound a bit pathetic but I was brought up to have no boundaries whatsoever when I was growing up (to the point where i was told I should change everything about myself so that people would like me, and that it was perfectly 'normal' for women to have sex with men when they didn't want to and it was better just to go along with it) so it makes me really anxious to assert Me.

I appreciate that I have sought 'permission' and validation here but old habits are hard to break and I'm angry but also feel terribly guilty. But then when I imagine the alternative - things being as they were before...

MaybeDoctor

No, I won't do but I've since learnt that there was someone else who saw it too. They just assumed that we were messing about. I'm just going to stick with the "being a dick" line.

MaybeDoctor

No it's not but I think all bands can get a bit like it I suppose! Thing is, it's the not the 'band'; it's one person with whom I have a pre existing friendship.

justilou1

I dont know - what we had was a friendship, not an emotional affair though! Like I say, we've all been friends for around 8 years.

I do agree with the misogynistic arse bit though. He's very supportive of women; prides himself on being the one to make sure women's voices are heard in meetings all that sort of thing. But I've realised that what he likes are well behaved women who are deferent to him in some way.

You do NOT need to contact him again, unless you wish to say
“I have made it clear that I do not wish to be anywhere near you at all. Do not contact me ever again!”

Sorry SunshineAngel not MaybeDoctor 🙄😬

Bluerussian

Thanks x

I bet people were “talking” about your friendship though.... even though it was innocent at your end, he was hurting it for more. No matter what he said, I expect he felt entitled to more than he received, hence his behaviour, which was definitely abusive AND escalating. You are not mistaken about this. I suspect there is an element of “But I have put YEARS into this!!!!”

*working it, not hurting it, obv

I agree with the Dick Method but I would also add that he’s been physically abusive and pushed you so that it’s not just seen as six of one and half a dozen of the other.

However - more important than the band or anything else is keeping yourself safe - your intuition is telling you loudly that he’s dangerous (let’s face it, he has shown you that he’s dangerous). Don’t ignore that, it’s not wrong. It’s often mentioned on here but Gavin De Becker’s ‘The Gift of Fear’ talks a lot about this and it’s invaluable.

"He's very supportive of women"
No he is not. That's part of his act. But he is not truly supportive of women, he can't be when he doesn't even respect them.
He has an act, and if other people fall for it, that's their problem not yours. He has revealed his true colours to you.

I like the sound of the Dick Method and I hope it works for you. I do have some reservations about it - it puts the onus on the victim to stand up to their aggressor, to act strong when you are actually feeling very vulnerable - it's great if you can pull it off but I hope you don't feel bad if you can't. I just think that for someone with your history and such a strong need for validation from others, it's going to take a huge mental effort to essentially give yourself a personality transplant and pull off this "Fuck him he's a dick let's ignore him and get on with it" act.

I agree it sounds like an excellent tactic but I am also inclined to agree with the Pawtriarchy, too. I still think you should tell the band leader that he was physically aggressive towards you and that's why the two of you have fallen out. It doesn't need to be a long angsty conversation analysing his behaviour. Just an FYI type thing.

justilou1

I'm sure they must have. I've been asked straight out before if we've ever had an affair 🙄 I cant speak for him but I've certainly never harboured any feelings of attraction for him. He's just not my type! And he's married.

I can definitely see the logic in what you're saying but I'd be very surprised.

AnotherEmma

Of course, you're right. But that is definitely how he 'presents'.

It's probably more accurate to say he's supportive of everyone while they are behaving in a way that is acceptable to him. I'm no longer behaving properly - in his mind - and he's trying to bring me back into line.

And yes, I do agree with you and Pawtriarchy on that. So last night, when I went out, I did mention it to someone when she asked about him. She saw the issue straightaway.

She also said she wondered if he had feelings for me. I said I didn't know and didn't really care because there was nothing that excused it. She agreed. But that was all. We had a lovely night and he wasn't mentioned again.

I think I do need to say something so it isn't seen as six of one... but I'm not interested in talking about it at length or 'bitching' about it.

Incidentally, I did reply to him about tonight. I just said I hadn't made a final decision about tonight but would be making my own way there if I did go and left it at that.

He replied, "oh... ok..." and then said he was only going I went because he didn't want to go on his own. I didnt reply. I'm surprised he wouldnt go if I didn't - he's known these people for exactly as long as I have. I've made more of an effort to develop friendships than he has but he was equally included in the invitation.

'said he was only going I went because he didn't want to go on his own. I didnt reply. I'm surprised he wouldnt go if I didn't - he's known these people for exactly as long as I have. I've made more of an effort to develop friendships than he has but he was equally included in the invitation.'

I expect saying that was a way of trying to make you feel obliged to go in order to help him, to feel you have to do things for him and general, and to feel sorry for him.

I’m so sorry this has happened to you. The hand in the face thing is physical assault. Keep yourself safe from this psychopath.

Interestedwoman
Oh, of course. It's just more of the same manipulation.

So now, he'll either go on his own anyway or message to say he isn't going because he was waiting to hear from me or something 🙄 ah well, the person he'll message is someone who knows everything he's done and is aware that he is being manipulative.

Thank you Train. It feels hard to think of him in those terms but he's certainly showing a side of himself I want no part of.

I just keep reminding myself that he would never behave towards a man the way he is behaving towards me and also that if a boyfriend had done any of this, I'd have dumped him.

I like Towels approach.
It makes it breezy without asking anyone to take sides, however they will now be on the lookout for dick moves, and will be on high alert for them.

I think he is jealous. I think he thought that when you both joined the band that he would OBVIOUSLY be far better and in demand than you are, a mere woman, and when this hasnt played out well, where you have made friends and not stood meekly behind him while he took the limelight, he has grown angry and resentful about that.
You got asked to do some one off gigs where he wasnt - he tries to make out that he WAS asked but you've scuppered it
You got headhunted but they failed to spot his amazing talent
People like you and talk to you. They think he is a bit odd.

None of this is your problem of course, not your fault - but this is why he is trying to put you back in your place behind him. He is delibertaely trying to belittle you, he is trying to 'warn' you with his talk of the silent assasin and master manipulator, and most recently he tried to take ownership with telling you to stop talking, time to go. Like he was your dad.

He IS a dick. The others will see it soon, but the less actual air you give it, the less it can hurt you, and the more likely he is to just fuck off, because he wont be left with anything else.

So Towels breezy explaination really does wonders. Alerts them. Shows youve drawn a boundary, doesnt get any drama llama going on, just dismisses him, and they will all be on the lookout for you.

Read the full thread.
It’s shocking how many people make excuses for an abusive person.
And how women are supposed to put up with this.
If he was your partner, people here would be telling you to leave him because the abuse has escalated.
So leave him. Tell him to stay away from you. Tell him why and tell him in front of witnesses.