How do you even begin to like/trust men

[EternallyUntrusting]

I'm 36 years old. I can hand on my heart say I don't like men. There are some men I have respect for at work (they are good at their jobs), but I don't like men.

If you knew me in real life you would think the absolute opposite. I dress 'for the male gaze', I outgoing, chatty, flirty, very confident. But to a man, I cannot stand the fuckers.

Every significant man since I was a child has turned out to be an utter cunt. My father beat and abused my mother and us. My first husband (lovely man to all and sundry), cheated on me and left me with 3 small children. I was single for a long time then. Lots of therapy, very angry with men and therapy seemed to consist of 'they aren't all the same, you are seeking out these men, good men exist'. My male therapist then fucking messaged me when he was drunk!

I then met a lovely man. Kind, successful, no drug problem, no criminal record. Promised me the absolute earth, my DC fell in love with him, when our DD was 9 mths old he walked out the door and I haven't seen him since (4 years ago).

Since then i've pretty much gone off my rocker. I am aware of how i am acting. I've actively sought out men to prove my theory that given long enough, given enough opportunity and the promise of it never getting out every single one of those fuckers will cheat on their wives/girlfriends or at least cross a line they shouldn't be crossing.

And I hate them for it. Even today, stood at the train station sheltering from the rain, a man about 20 years older than me starts a conversation about the brexit vote. Perfectly pleasant 10 min conversation. Then asks me for a drink. You sure your wife won't mind? He was wearing a fucking wedding ring!!

The same on here thread after thread after thread of 'lovely family men' cheating, using women for wife work, hiding from putting their kids to bed and just nasty useless cocklodgers.

Am I going to hate men for the rest of my life? Even now I've tried to stop proving to myself what wankers they are they seem to go out of their way to prove it to me!

Julierat 100% I grew up as a feminist and thought times had changed, treated men as friends, with respect and as my equal. What I got back was very different especially in the work place.

Look, don't get me wrong. I know that men can behave terribly. Actually, everyone - male or female - can behave terribly. But there is clear evidence that the majority of some of the worst behaviours are committed at disproportionate levels by men. I absolutely understand why that would drive a cynicism and mistrust of men among women who've been on the receiving end of those behaviours. All I was saying above, is that if you get to a point where you hate everybody with a shared characteristic (especially one they can do nothing about, such as their sex), then you have to understand that the good people with that characteristic aren't going to want anything to do with you (in any capacity - I'm not just talking about relationships here). Nobody wants to spend time with somebody who hates them.

As for the OP's original question about how you learn to trust....the best advice I can give is the same as people often say when their faith in humanity is shaken by a terrorist attack or similar.....look for the helpers.

For those who have faced terrible things at the hands of men, I bet there were also men involved in helping to pick up the pieces. The Police Officers who protect you, and are deeply committed to bringing rapists, abusers, and violent offenders to justice are 70% male (source: ONS). The paramedics who respond to incidents and do everything in their power to save lives, and heal the sick & wounded, are 62% male (source: gov.uk). The consultant surgeons who use their skill and dedication to put you back together are 89% male (source: Royal College of Surgeons). The Judges who administer the criminal justice system to ensure the streets are safe from offenders are 68% male (source: judiciary.uk). For every man who treated you badly, there are many others who work daily to make the world a better place.

That's what helped me re-build my trust in women when I escaped a violent and abusive ex-wife. I looked at the two female police officers who responded when she assaulted me again; the nurses at the hospital who dealt with the injuries; the female family lawyer who took up my fight and ensured that I secured the right residence arrangements for my children; the female Head at the school who worked right alongside me to make sure that appropriate safeguarding measures were in place for my kids; and the many, many female friends who were there with a supportive word. They all helped me to see that my bad experience wasn't representative. Looking to the helpers certainly aided me in understanding that, while some women can behave in truly horrific ways, many more do not.

Now, I'm sure some of you will say that it doesn't compare, because my helpers were female and my experience as a male victim at the hands of a woman was a minority experience. And you may say that all the male helpers out there are probably cheating, or themselves abusers, or whatever. Maybe some of them are. Maybe some of my female helpers were as well - women cheat and abuse too (mumsnet has regular posts from those women!). But it seems like a dysfunctional response to assume that somebody who is helping you is automatically secretly a bad person, because of what is between their legs.

If you truly believe that, there's probably no advice that anybody can give you on how to trust again. You're too far gone, and hatred is probably just the way you're going to live now. If that's the case, the best thing you can do is just stay away from men - for your own sake, and theirs.

The Police Officers who protect you, and are deeply committed to bringing rapists, abusers, and violent offenders to justice are 70% male (source: ONS). The paramedics who respond to incidents and do everything in their power to save lives, and heal the sick & wounded, are 62% male (source: gov.uk). The consultant surgeons who use their skill and dedication to put you back together are 89% male (source: Royal College of Surgeons). The Judges who administer the criminal justice system to ensure the streets are safe from offenders are 68% male (source: judiciary.uk). For every man who treated you badly, there are many others who work daily to make the world a better place.

I can't believe you posted that without irony! Yes there are lots of men doing a great job, and the paramedics are mostly blameless here. But can't you see that the male-dominated police, medical profession and judiciary have a LOT to do with the oppression of women? Individual policemen may not set out to do harm but sexism and misogyny on a deep level contribute hugely to rapes NOT being reported, tried and convicted, for example. We've recently heard in the news about women's heart issues not being taken seriously and women being more likely to not get an ambulance soon enough and not be treated correctly. Judges and juries letting off men like Paul Gascoigne for deeply sexist reasons. Wake up and look at the reality Misplaceddad. This is a huge problem - nice, well-meaning men just not seeing how it works.

I'm not arguing with any of that, @Julierat. There remain significant structural inequalities in society, that are not okay. Those are societal issues, amd they need to be tackled. But the OP's question was about how she comes to trust men having been treated terribly by some. That's a question that operates on the level of the individual man - not the level of society. You yourself recognise that individual policemen do not set out to do harm. They spend their days actively trying to prevent harm. So, you would agree that on an individual level, they are trustworthy? Is it not possible for the views that many, many men are individually trustworthy, and also that society as a whole still has issues of sexism and inequality that need to be addressed, to co-exist?

I'm just trying to help the OP, here, with her question about she can learn to trust and not to hate the individual men that she encounters in her life. Those men, on an individual level, can be living their lives right, challenging problematic behaviour when they see it, and treating others (including women well)...and for there still to be problems at a societal level.

Yes this is the point Julierat.

Dad there are well meaning men out there like yourself but the frustration is they don’t understand just how bad it is. Rape is currently being decriminalised by a system run by mostly men.

I agree with you. I can count on one hand the men I consider ‘good’ in my life and 4 of them are family. Despite how wonderful my two long term partners initially were, they both turned into lying, cheating a holes with no thought for anyone but themselves and made my life unbearable.
I had a year long relationship with a great man but I couldn’t dedicate the time needed to it and it wasn’t fair on him. My ex also made it extremely difficult by constantly calling me to come home if I went out, texting abuse etc if he knew I was out with this man. At the time, my ex also had a gf but couldn’t stand to see me happy. Now that other man is with someone else so there’s no going back. Breaking up with him is something I will regret forever. I won’t ever meet another man as genuinely good as him. So, they are out there, but they are so rare we sadly have little chance of finding them.
I would love to have someone to care for me as much as I care for them but I’m going to avoid the hurt from now on. It just isn’t worth it.

That's a question that operates on the level of the individual man - not the level of society.

The entire point I ands many feminists try to get across is that these are not separate. Yes, a policeman (some of them) might be well-intentioned, but unless he understands how the deeply embedded societal sexism affects everything he thinks and does, he will err on the side of shitting on women even without meaning to - or perhaps by just not really being bothered - as do employers, doctors, judges, etc etc etc. We bring women up to serve men and men to expect to be served by women, including sexually. Those assumptions are deep and lie under how men behave when they attend a DV incident, make an arrest, interview victims and the accused and sit in judgement.

This doesn't just apply to the law, it's everywhere , perpetuating itself all the time. Women perpetuate it too unless they become aware of it. Like a female primary school teacher unconsciously letting boys off with rougher behaviour than girls, encouraging boys to take the lead in science while girls hang back, giving girls the pretty coat hook labels and boys the active ones. I've seen all that happen, it's not just feminist textbook hearsay.

You didn't even question WHY these jobs that deal with and process the impacts of violence that is overwhelmingly committed by men, are male-dominated. Convenient huh?

I'm not saying it's a conscious conspiracy - though many men do consciously target women to be their victims, I agree many don't. What it is is a longstanding, deeply embedded, often subconscious, unequal system massively weighted in favour of men, and against women - a patriarchy. The fact that some men think they are being nice is not enough. Both women and men have to see the reality, in order to challenge it.

I'm not denying any of the societal inequalities and issues being raised here. I was actually astounded (and deeply disappointed) by the High Court Judges figure, especially. What I was doing was responding to the OP's very specific question about how she can stop hating men. The advice I've given may help with that. It may not. If it does, great. If it doesn't, that's fine too. There's no law against hating people - you can hate whoever you want to.

You're not denying them, but you still think an individual's decisions and actions have nothing to do with societal inequality. Can you change your view on that?

I don't need to change my view, because I absolutely do believe that an individual's actions directly affect societal outcomes. Societies are, after all, simply collections of individuals.

And unconscious bias is a thing. I did a fascinating exercise with work the other day, where we all had to list the friends, family, and colleagues we regard as mentors / role models and would turn to for advice. It was only afterwards when we were asked to assess the characteristics of the people we had listed, that we learned this was an exercise to identify unconscious bias. I discovered that not one of the people I had listed was from an ethnic minority (although, interestingly, I had listed twice as many women as men). I'm now reflecting on why that was - partly, it may be under-representation of ethnic minorities at equally senior levels, and the fact that I live in a largely white rural area. But it may also be unconscious bias. I don't have the answers to that yet - but I'm actively working on it. And I can see the effect that could have.

So, I agree with you that individual actions directly affect societal inequality.

But I was responding to the OP's question about how to stop hating. Do I believe that it is a proportionate response to a structural issue to hate every person who shares the chatacteristic of the class that's 'winning'? No, I don't. Do I believe that's the best way to make change happen? No, I don't. So I offered advice to reflect that - to recognise that there are many people in any given class who are trying to do the right thing, and live their lives the best way possible. That though there are some in that class who will hurt you, there are also many others who will do everythig they can to help you. And that it isn't proportionate to hate them all.

Others may disagree. Others may believe that, so long as there is inequality, it is entirely appropriate to hate the 'winning' class. Some women may therefore believe it is right to hate men. Some BAME people may believe it is right to hate white people. Some disabled people may believe it is right to hate the able bodied. Some from developing countries may believe it is right to hate the west.

Personally, I don't believe that hate is the answer. I believe there's already more than enough hate in the world. But that's just me. Other philosophies are available.

Some disabled people may believe it is right to hate the able bodied.

Bloody hell. I hope you've no disabled people in your life if that's what you think of us...

You have managed to single-handedly demonstrate why we don't need men explaining things to us. Least of all the need to centre women (and other oppressed and marginalised groups).

Bloody hell. I hope you've no disabled people in your life if that's what you think of us...

Clearly, I don't believe that - that was kinda the point.

So, I agree with you that individual actions directly affect societal inequality.

The point I was making was about it working the other way round - that what you may think is an individual decision is influenced by society-wide misogyny, whether you think it is or not - and that feminism involves actively resisting that.

I feel exactly the same. I am 47 and have never met or known a decent man. I kind of believe they might exist but I'm sceptical!

Sorry not to be clear, @julierat - yes, I did grasp that. That's why I talked about unconscious bias. I was agreeing with you.

Society is patriarchal ....power corrupts, if society was matriarchal women would be in the shoes of the men.
I don't think men are inherently bad, I think that people respond to incentives, men (very broadly speaking) are just more able to get away with bad behaviour, it gets them what they want and that's why they do it

Female empaths are largely in servitude to narcissistic males
I think yes there is a lot of that about but there are also narcissistic women who enslave the empathic they just choose different methods because it's difficult for women to get away with male coded behaviour.

@SlightlyMisplacedSingleDad

To use groups of marginalised people to make your point is bad enough.
You're doing men no favours here in a thread of women who have been mistreated, abused, gaslit, coerced etc.

Misplaced right enough

Most of the men I have ever met have been awful in one way or another. I now have no men in my life at all, aside from a few at work, who I don't engage with. I have met a very small number of awful women. Most women are ok. I have been single for 12 years and I intend to stay that way indefinitely.

I am so happy that I live in a place and time that I don't have to engage with men. I feel very, very sorry for women who have to put up with awful men.

I am sorry that you have had to go through all of that op

You have put into words what I have been feeling and couldn’t quite put my finger on it. My ex was very controlling and it took years for me to really realise what he was like. Unfortunately he learnt this pattern from his narcissistic father and enabling family. By me leaving him I had hoped that this would set an example to my dc’s that this is unacceptable behaviour. I’m hoping this is just a phase but when my teenage ds returns from staying with my ex I notice that my ds uses some of the disrespectful phrases towards me that my controlling ex uses. All I can do is pull him up on them and explain that he shouldn’t be saying these things and the reasons why. I hope that in the long term he will respect women and treat them as equals. I wonder if it will take a few generations yet for women to generally be accepted as equals as I know my df loved us as a family and provided for us but expected my dm to serve him whilst she was a stahm.

SlightlyMisplacedSingleDad
Nice try, but I think you are wasting your time trying to explain to people whose minds are already made up.

I feel the same OP. Selfish bullying father, cheating, lying boyfriends, abusive husband. Now I'm divorced, the only bloke I have any time for is my son. I've done a bit of online dating, had a couple of dates. They were only interested in sex, and I was really turned off by their lunging at me. I've also been told I'm ugly (by men) for most of my life, so maybe they think I'll be grateful for anything! Well I'm not. I'm content on my own, sex is no longer important to me, what is important is a support network of friends. I will never share my space or my life with another man. We need to be educating our young women that their self-worth is not tied up with getting a bloke or their perceived attractiveness to men. I've known so many entitled, mysoginistic arseholes who are obsessed with their dicks. Maybe there are 'good' men out there. It's just that some of us have never experienced them and we are rightly and justifiably cynical. Sorry, that went on a bit!

Excellent point mindproject. I might sometimes feel a bit sorry for myself that as a heterosexual middle aged feminist I’m highly unlikely to find the man for me and will probably spend the rest of my life single.

But at least, thanks to the advances feminists have made, I can do that - earn my own money, have my own place, my own pension, and personal freedom. So many women around the world still can’t, whether by law or overpowering stigma.