Who pays on second date( but first dinner date)

[Mountainhare]

Prob will get slated for this but just being honest
Second date - but first dinner date- with guy I like.
I offered ( said “ do you want me to...” when the bill arrived) and he said “ yes let’s split it”
He had asked me out for dinner and I feel quite traditional in that it would be nice if the guy who has asked you pays for the first time you go for dinner. Not every date, just in this situation maybe
Prepared to be slated though... thoughts please?

But people do realise what it’s about - not much on MN admittedly, but in the real world. It might be difficult to put into words. One person’s ideas of attraction, sexuality etc are different to the next person’s. It’s not simply about “blindly following tradition” at all. If that was all it was, so many dating rituals, if you can call them that, wouid have disappeared long ago. But they haven’t. Why? Maybe it’s because people like to express themselves in relationships in different ways and via certain roles or behaviours?

Not sure I agree with you. This is such a good example of blindly following a tradition. Why should men pay? Well because it's tradition/its gentlemanly/kindness/generous with little to no deeper thought. They've been taught that men pay so they expect men to pay and it's seen as rude if they dont.

But why do some traditions persist, while others are abandoned? Probably because people want them to persist, for whatever reason.

Even in an age when we are told that equality means sameness, what I guess you could call “courtship roles” persist, maybe as an expression of sexuality or similar. 80% of our behaviour is driven by unconscious processes apparently. Some women prefer very gender neutral roles in relationships because they think this defines equality; other couples gravitate towards more gendered roles and find a different kind of balance. It’s nothing anyone can really dictate because you’re talking about what motivates people romantically, emotionally, sexually and instinctively. One person’s idea of equality in dating or relationships, will be dull as dishwater to the next person.

Turningtides I agree with everything you're saying.

I'm not really bothered either way who pays for what in my relationship now. In the grand scheme of things it's just not that big of a deal for me. I was brought up by a very strong mother, a proper feminist & because of this I find it hard to accept help from others. My dp gets a lot of happiness from paying for meals etc, his happiness outweighs whatever annoyance I used to have over it (which I'm now over).

I don't think either point of view is wrong. Equality is about people choosing for themselves.

There seems to be a new pressure on women to be all singing & dancing. Have a career, be independent, be a mum. It may work for some but for others being a sahm is the best thing.

I don't think anyone should be condemned for having the same beliefs as past generations. It's being pushed down our throats to be a certain way now & it's hypocritical of what equality is.

@itsallverywell Hey, thanks for sticking up for me in my absence

I have reported the personal attacks now, but it is, in a slightly twisted way, reassuring to be called 'dumb' and 'a dafty' [!] by the likes of @Lilena94

Lilena94 Mon 23-Sep-19 14:22:08
with respect @Lilena94 I think you need to put a bit more thought into the wider picture rather than settling for seeing it as a nice gesture

There is no ‘bigger picture’ and if you think it’s a feminist issue, you need to get with the times- a lot of young women like me are over that now. That’s not the way the world is anymore. Nobody is saying parents should pay a dowry or anything 😂 just take it for what it is without having to overthink everything. It’s no wonder fewer than 1/5 young women call themselves ‘feminist’ nowadays...because it’s so melodramatic

If you're actually a young woman, as you keep claiming, why do you write like a 50-year-old man in a cardigan with sweat-stained armpits and an impressive collection of Dr Who on VHS?

Equality is about people choosing for themselves.

Regrettably, this attitude does nothing to end the power imbalance. To be committed to equality, you must look beyond your own lens.

To be committed to equality, you must look beyond your own lens.

I think you need to look beyond yours, you come across as narrow minded and unable to accept that others don't share the same opinion.

I absolutely accept that others don't share my opinion @Everafter1. Everybody is entitled to their own and I respect that entitlement, if not the opinion itself. But there must be an acknowledgement that some opinions do nothing to rectify the power imbalance and instead promulgate it. Not everybody wants to join in the fight, that's fair enough. My view is singleminded rather than narrowminded. That's what it takes to create real change.

Said the man who expected the woman to do all the cleaning, and never to change a nappy, and always to have his way about the finances.

Careful what you wish for.

This is a really good point. But the thing is most men still either subscribe to a position where they want to show that they're attentive. Or they don't. This may not be ideal. But it still underpins their attitudes about relationships. And it's something that tells you how the rest of the relationship will progress.

I would also wish to point out that men still earn more than women generally. You may want things to be equal. But in reality they just aren't.

Change the fact a woman would've preferred her date to pay for their meal?

That's her preference. It's not a big fight.

I agree completely that some people's opinions hinder progression but I also think that females don't have to conform the every part of a feminist movement if it's not what they believe.

For me, a man paying would never equate to him holding the cards. I don't think men who want to pay and women who are happy to accept (or vice versa) should be pigeonholed.

I do t believe that wanting a man to pay (and chivalry in general) means that you are signing up for a relationship of being seen and not heard and playing the little lady. You can do things your own way and contrary to popular belief you CAN pick and choose which bits of feminism and which bits of traditionalism you like! That’s what I’ve done!

I agree completely that some people's opinions hinder progression but I also think that females don't have to conform the every part of a feminist movement if it's not what they believe.

Agreed, but the latter results in the former.

Come on, that's hypocritical. It's getting tedious now.

contrary to popular belief you CAN pick and choose which bits of feminism and which bits of traditionalism you like! That’s what I’ve done!

Of course you can do that, anyone can. But it's not really feminism.

Come on, that's hypocritical
For the second time today I don't follow your logic @Everafter1

It's getting tedious now.

You're not obliged to engage in the discussion you know!

itsallverywell there's really no need to become annoyed.
I'm not against you, but you are making strong points regarding feminism and equality yet you seem very unsettled if a woman doesn't conform to your perception of feminism. That's removing her own beliefs & not any better.

I'd expect him to pay it. On dates I would always offer to be polite but always had the expectation that he would pay. I never have had a guy not pay for dinner. Then if we move on to a bar I will pay for the drinks.

If we go out for drinks for first date, he will pay one round, I will pay the next etc

I was about to agree with you until you posted that he'd spent £40 on tickets for your first date.

On that basis I think he actually would have been justified in accepting your offer to pay for the whole meal yourself.

I certainly wouldn't brush him off because of this.

Weirdest (or most depressing) thread I have ever read! You went on a second date. You offered (reluctantly!) to pay for your food and he split the bill down the middle. Quite right too. You then said you didn't feel special because of this? As others have pointed out, it's 2019. You then hand him cash and when he takes it and, for an easier transaction, uses his card to pay the bill, that's wrong too? But you gave him cash?? What difference does it make if he pays with it or not? You don't sound 'traditional' you sound entitled and grabby to me, sorry.

See, I think it's just weird the notion of giving someone cash. It's cringeworthy. If it was a friend that would be fine. A date? Just no...

See, I think it's just weird the notion of giving someone cash. It's cringeworthy. If it was a friend that would be fine. A date? Just no...

Followed by his refusal to leave any of it for a tip 🙈
I just imagine him sitting with the card reluctant to put it near the reader until OP jumps in lol

Yeah exactly. How crappy of him to not even leave a tip.

Yeah, it's mortifying. If the cash is there, especially cash you weren't expecting to have then there should be no objections about tipping. The only people I know who don't tip are pretty self involved.

If he invited me and chose the restaurant I would expect him to pay if he was interested. If he wasn’t that in to me (but probably still up for a shag) I would expect him to go halves. Usually I would reciprocate by paying for our drinks in the bar after dinner (and to let him know I was interested too). For our next date I would offer to pay for dinner and appreciate him taking me somewhere after for an after dinner drink, etc.

Apologies if I appeared cranky @Everafter1, brain was tired.

I think the issue is for me, it's all or nothing. Feminism for me means activism, so I struggle to see a woman who subscribes to "some" feminist beliefs as a feminist as she isn't really adding much to the overall female cause, just seeing life through her own lens.

I'm the same with some people who call themselves Christian.

It's a very black and white view I know but some things will only change if we take a stance and maintain it, however much it takes us out of our comfort zone. A pick and mix set of beliefs, whilst it works at an individual level, undermines the wider cause. And I mean the worldwide female cause.

Apologies again.