Son wants nothing to do with me!

[Wilf1975]

I was married to my first husband, we had a son & daughter together. My husband was mentally, physically & emotionally abusive to the three of us. I eventually found the strength to leave him when my son was 8 and my daughter was 6.
Six months of him leaving my husband took an overdose and ended up in a vegetative state in a nursing home for four years until he died in 2013.
The three of us were always close until my son started going out with his girlfriend 3 years ago. He walked out 2 years ago and I have not really seen him. I have tried everything to try and be included in his life but he doesn’t want that. He totally despises me and blames me for his childhood. My daughter told me yesterday he is getting married in February and will not be inviting me.
I miss him so much, can’t help but think there is something wrong with me. I have a rubbish relationship with my own mum and didn’t want to end up like that.
I feel tired, the people close to me treat me like rubbish and I don’t think I deserve this. It is just one thing after another, I just want some peace and be a family. It feels like I am always picking up after other people and have no say in things. I feel so sad..........

I think that what pp are trying to do is not to victim blame but to try to explain to the OP how things may look from her son's perspective. I am an adult and an HCP, with a great deal of experience of working with the victims of DV. From those perspectives, it is obviously not the victim's fault and rationally I can apply that to my perceptions of my mother's behaviour during my childhood. Emotionally, when I remember it or converse directly with her about it, I still perceive those times through the lens of my childhood. I cannot stop or switch off those feelings,and it has made a difference to my relationship with her. It's all very well berating posters for victim blaming, but that isn't going to help the OP to move forward with her questions about her son. He is probably incapable of applying rational logic to his memories, because he's effectively still a traumatised child in regards to them.

As for mothers witnessing her child or children being assaulted and "doing nothing" to intervene - the decision making behind this can be complicated, fear based, and is often designed to prevent worse assaults from occurring. Getting in the way of a furious violent man could mean the difference between a relatively minor assault and someone being murdered. Domestic violence is the fault of the perpetrator only.

Having said all of this, the OP's son is entitled to his feelings. He is entitled to space to process those feelings. Society (and Mumsnet it would seem) blames women for domestic violence. It views women as "allowing" it to occur. It views women who do not and cannot leave as weak and complicit. OP's son is a prouct of this culture as are we all. OP you have no choice other than to allow him the space he needs and to accept that he's at where he's at. I understand it must be incredibly painful.

But social services will (rightly) be extremely blunt about the fact that if you know this is abusive, and your children are going to suffer as a result, then leave you must

As they should. It’s not victim blaming to say that, it’s about protecting the child/children involved.

Her son is entitled to his feelings, whether they are rational or not. We only know what’s been written here. We don’t know what he actually went through, only he does. Now he is an adult he’s obviously processing that and part of that is cutting contact. Only he knows if that’s the right decision.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss you are missing the point. I absolutely agree that is what should happen. But back in the real world shitty abusive men don't pay any maintenance and continue to abuse their children and if a mother raises concerns or tries to withhold contact they get treated as the problem parent. I wish that wasn't the case but I also want all those people giving well meaning advice (or worse, judgement) to understand the reality. I can't keep my children safe now and it is awful.

Then there is the matter of resources after women have left. A woman I know left her violent husband as a result of an ultimatum from social services: leave or lose your child. She left.

This woman and her child (who has special needs that make change incredibly difficult for him to cope with) lived in a noisy refuge with other (often high needs) women and children for over a year. They were waiting for housing. She then had to leave the refuge and she and her child were put in a range of different B+B's. Still no permanent housing. She was then offered permanent housing that was completely unsuitable for her childs needs. She refused as she had no choice. The council then labelled her intentionally homeless and said they no longer considered themselves responsible for housing her. She has been living in a caravan in a friends garden for the past year. Her child isn't coping and neither is she. She is suicidal and her boys mental health is unravelling. He has had to change schools many times.

If you ask her she will tell you: Staying put and taking her chances with her husband would have been better than this. Her child at least had a comfortable home and a place in a school that understood his needs. They had enough money to live on. Her child was stable and much happier then than he is now. Social services forced her to leave under threat of taking her child but have now left her high and dry. The resources and support just aren't there.

But we don’t even know which part of the childhood the son is angry about. It could even be that he’s angry because his mother left his father which, in his mind, resulted in the father taking an overdose and then spending several years in a nursing home until his death. And then what? Should the OP have to acknowledge her part then?

@ChippyPickledEggs that is heartbreaking. And another good reason why we need to stop blaming the victims!

It is heartbreaking. It absolutely infuriates me when people blame women for not 'just leaving.'

There isn't much you can do OP but show respect and always have an open door to your son. This is the problem which I also somewhat have, when staying with an abusive narcissistic loser for too long, when the first signs are there...run and that's the advice I give to any young women or girls when it comes to relationships.

How many of us really if we are honest regret having children with our ex's for this reason?

I love my children to pieces, but the toxic filth of an influence is there and it kills me to see it. Fortunately, my kids are fairly objective and can generally see their dad for what he is, but there are traits of him there in the boys and it makes me wonder if your 8 year old has traits of his dad, the first 8 years is a huge period of influence on a child. May be he looks back with rose tinted glasses because of it, angry for his dad not being there and lashing out at you as the closest target.

All you can do is be there, never turn him away, never be hostile just be there. Time is a great healer and who someone is in their 20s isn't who someone will be in their 30s. That's all you can do, just be there for him.

It must be heartbreaking @Wilf1975 but, unfortunately nobody has a right to expect anything from their child.

We owe our children love, and care but they owe us nothing. I don't know the full story from his side. It may be that he can't direct his anger about his deceased father at him so it's misplaced towards you. Or it may be that he feels you didn't protect him.

Either way, all you can do is keep trying but if he doesn't want you to be in his life it's ultimately his choice.

You've had some really sharp replies on here op, I have to say I was once in an abusive relationship, without kids though, and I felt totally trapped, it wasn't as simple for me as just LTB. I was at my very lowest, I was made to feel I was absolutely nothing and the violent rages and mind games just left me not even knowing what day it was. I am so thankful there were no children involved, I'd like to think if there were I would have gotten out straight away, that's how I think now that I'm stronger. But I'm sorry you're going through this, you are a survivor too, all you can really do is be there for your son, I would possibly write a letter with it all in, tell him how deeply sorry you are for what he went through and tell him you are prepared to spend the rest of your life making it up to him. That's what I would do. And I'd mean it.

Not had chance to read the whole thread. Similar situation here. I am the daughter. My brother will not have anything to do with my mother.
She left when we were teenagers. He has a warped view of what happened and watches football with my Dad (the abuser) every weekend. Yet he hasn't spoken to my mum in 2 years (or me).

My mum should have protected us all better and got away. But, my brother fails to acknowledge that our Dad was the abuser. I think it boils down to wanting to look up to our dad, wanting a relationship with him so hes convinced himself things were different than they actually were.

But he still needs someone to blame for his shit, so mum gets it instead.

My mum tries to build bridges often but gets turned down. She keeps a box for his cards and presents for every christmas and birthday that she misses with a view to giving them to him one day.

I think he's an idiot.

@OhHimAgain while I agree with this sentiment to a degree Forgiving someone just means you release the burden upon yourself, nothing more. It isn't something you gift to another person, it's something you gift to yourself. it is only completely true when the other person doesn't care because they don't see what they did wrong. When there is guilt in the person who did wrong then forgiveness does benefit them as well.

I can’t believe how horrible some people are. I didn’t purposely chose an abusive husband. I had a rubbish upbringing and now see my lack of confidence encouraged my husband. Do I regret my marriage? No because I wouldn’t have two beautiful children, I regret staying and will never forgive myself for that.
I am not wallowing in self pity, I am upset because when I stood up to my husband to make the focus about my children he took his own life. I was still his next of kin and sat with him whilst he died. He always said that I would be his till the end.
When I stood in the judges chambers for an emergency non molestation order and he said if I went back to my husband my kids would be removed it was never a choice.
I know my children didn’t ask for the abuse and the only reason I would explain to them some of the things he did to me would be to try and show why it took me so long to leave.
I was nearly bankrupt, I managed to keep a roof over their head and spent lots of time with my children. I took them to counselling for over a year after their dads attempted suicide. I kept down a full time job as a nurse.
I think it is very easy to make judgments on people but you really don’t know until you’re in that situation.
I love both my children and my daughter understands that I tried my best.
My son has an older girlfriend with mental health issues, I don’t know her so can’t really comment on their relationship. I would have to question that my son told my daughter that she would be the only family there for him on their wedding day, Everybody else will be her family.
I have invited my son to family gatherings, I have written to him but now have to walk away because that’s what he has asked. I know that I am here and his dad isn’t so likely to get all his bitterness and resentment. He is not ready to listen to me.
This post is not about me because it never is about me. I stupidly assumed that people would understand domestic violence. That is why I don’t tell people what happened and i’m Surprised nobody has blamed me for my husband committing suicide. I stood up to my husband because my children were and are the most important things in my life.
I haven’t gone from one man to the next. I have a new husband but he never took their fathers role he has been there for both my kids.
I fully understand that my son feels I let him down and I did. I can’t even say out loud some of the things my husband did to me. So I am damaged but I have survived. All I can hope is that with time my son will realise i’m not the enemy.

When there is guilt in the person who did wrong then forgiveness does benefit them as well

That is true. But it needs to be understood by both parties that that is the case. The OP hasnt said whether or not she has spoken to her son and recognised the impact on him - if she has, and I've missed it, then fair enough.

The implication seems to be by some that he should move on, or forgive or just let it go because he is now an adult and it was a long time ago or because he should be understanding of her position and, unfortunately for both of them, it doesn't work like that.

Op, well done for having left an abusive marriage. And it seems to me that you’ve worked really hard over the years to give your children a stable home life after you left

The thing is, you say that you protected your kids but by them seeing you bruised, they were probably living in fear. Fear that they’re next, fear for your safety as well as theirs and that they felt unsafe seeing and hearing things that children never should, that one day you might be killed and they’d be left with the a vile and abusive father. Your son might have unresolved feelings of all this. He can’t take his anger and resentment out on his father and may also feel guilty because of his death. He’s probably torn between love and hate.

The fear, hurt and pain and now anger might be projected on to you because he cannot take it out on the one he should. Or worse, he’s internalised the abuse he witnessed and thinks it’s ok to talk to you that way because you took it before and therefore can take it now. All this means that he needs counselling and just because your daughter shows understanding, she too needs it just so she can speak openly about things that she might not be able to speak with you without hurting you. She might show understanding but doesn’t mean that she doesn’t feel hurt. And one day when she has children of her own, she might explore her feelings more and start to compare her upbringing to the one she wants her children to have.

Your son’s girlfriend might have mental health issues but he might have seen how a family should really be and he might also be fearful of not being the same as his father and so wants to close the doors to his past and even though you’ve not introduced your children to only one person and you’ve not had a partner after another or moved from pillar to post, your children will still have unresolved issues with their childhood. All of this isn’t your fault but the fact of the matter is that the first few years of their life were tarnished because of that vile man and yes you had the courage to leave but you also have to acknowledge and listen to your son and maybe admit either face to face or in a letter that no matter how hard you tried to protect them, you didn’t have the courage to leave at first and that you’re sorry that he had to see and hear those things and that once you did leave, you never looked back because you wanted a better life for your children and that you can never bring back those years but you will always be here for him and that you’ll always love and that you understand that he is hurt and he has every right to feel that way.

Op. You are not responsible for your husbands death and his violence towards you.

I hope your son comes around in time. The anger he feels is directed at you I guess because there's no-one else? It sucks but these things aren't always logical. I really hope, given time, that he comes to understand that you did the best you could

Well done on getting out of a domestic violence situation. I do understand how it's impossible to explain to anyone else the ins & outs of what you went through & why you took the first escape you were able to.

It sounds like your son hasn't "heard" your apology. You might have said it 1000 times before, but for whatever reason he must hear "I'm sorry, but" or "I'm sorry (insert justification here)" & he isn't in an emotional position to deal with hearing about your trauma. The little boy in him needs his trauma to be truly acknowledged & understood. You talk a lot about yourself here but nothing of how your son really views this situation, so either you haven't talked to him & don't know or don't think it is worth mentioning to us so we can have more understanding.

I just don't think you're quite there yet to perhaps realise the emotional damage inflicted on him ? He was 2 years older, he remembers more. He remembers being a little boy & his male role model being terrifying & not being able to protect his mum & himself. Your daughter was a different age & person. Her experience is different. I know my brother does not suffer any trauma from our childhood, but I was older & remember things much differently. Both are their own truths & you need to acknowledge that to him on a real, deep profound level if you want any chance of having the relationship you want with him.

Otherwise, do as others have recommended & leave the door always open for communication when he gets older & may see things differently in time. He is working through healing his traumas in his own way. He probably doesn't want to be estranged from you, it's just that when you are together there is an emotional clash.

It is possible for time to heal the wounds, not eventual but possible

Wilf
This post is not about me because it never is about me

Your post is all about you. Every sentence is about you. There is nothing in there about what your children experienced.

and this

He is not ready to listen to me

Are you ready to listen to him?

OhHimAgain

This whole thread seems to be all about you

Surely after nearly 20 posts you’ve contributed sufficiently and can let OP obtain good advice from other posters

This has been a very interesting read.....!!

I was abused for 15 years by my mother and to some extent our absent father stood by (they divorced, she moved us away). This was not a DV situation therefore; it was child abuse by female parent.

But I was also a DV advisor for many years and helped many women flee.

To address that bit first - I utterly agree with those who say it is not as simple as just leaving. The range of behaviours from abused women I saw went from 'he did it to me, but the second he did it to the children, I was off' to 'he isn't abusive, he's fine, no I didn't go out with him and leave them all alone again last night with no food or supervision.'

In the case of this poster, I think her actions are towards the first end of the scale.

It is true that society has been against women and also for me, this argument is about toxic masculinity - especially the argument about whether Family Courts should facilitate contact with abusive fathers. I have been involved in so many cases where a complete shit of a father is entitled to muck up that toddler every second weekend and the disruption and heartache just goes on.

My view is that yes, absent fathers hurt children and it is a societal ill - we know that not knowing your dad is a negative thing. Yet, knowing your dad for some means being exposed to toxic masculinity - power, control abuse, aggression etc.

This thread contains some very important debates.

When it comes right down to it, all abuse ought to be called out on incident one and ended. But it doesn't go like that. The variable is always how long we are going to stay and therefore how much we are going to suffer / be affected. In an ideal world, that timeframe and consequent fallout would be very little.

In considering fleeing and bearing in mind the emotional state of a survivor under fire, the societal pressure to stay, the patriarchal systems that prevent leaving, again the result is often that people stay for longer than would be considered ideal.

We have to keep getting better at things like this. I did the job for that very reason.

It is telling to me, with my experience, that the family court judge said the OP would lose her children if she did not keep away. I suspect more harm took place than she is letting on, and she stayed by the guy to his deathbed, suggesting further enmeshment.

Surely after nearly 20 posts you’ve contributed sufficiently and can let OP obtain good advice from other posters

You've counted my posts??!

Bonkers.

Besides, I've actually only said the same as most other people anyway! And if I said it first, why not tell them to stop posting?

It's a public forum and if I want to post, I will.

something2say

Absolutely spot on.

As for those who think I've said too much, all the posts about the impact on the OP are completely valid and go without saying but if she wants to resolve the situation with her son, it can't be all about her.

I have been interested to read OhHimAgain's posts I must say, and I have been heartened to hear from so many other abused adults who say what I feel - that in talking about it, families shut us down and make it all about them.

In the course of my work, I sometimes came across several members of the same family and we were taught to treat them entirely differently. They may have grown up in the same house, but they may have experienced separate things, things the others know nothing about. They may ostracise the most harmed individual, they may behave like the abuser, they may hate the survivor and blame them as it is safer to, they may cope in all sorts of ways.

But the central thing to do to help is as people say - to just listen. For once.

I am the scapegoated member of my family who was out of touch for 20 years and then allowed some contact recently and got royally stung by it. My brother wrote 'Get over it - no-one cares' and my sister was just vile. They all have some idea of me that I deserved it, am lying about it and it didn't happen but in the next breath my sister says they just don't talk about it and I am to respect their point of view, even while she just speaks to me like shit, just like when we were kids and my mother demonstrated that and they learnt it.

To have therefore heard posters on this thread say things like 'just listen, just try and see it thro their eyes' is SO helpful - and could help family members like mine.

Because they could be right.

For example, my mother one day pushed me back and back down the hall until I got to the door, held me against the door by one arm, told me to stick my tongue out and then held a burning cigarette just over my tongue threatening to stub it out on there. My brother and sister were not there but plenty of that sort of thing went on when they were there. They say, just let it go, no one cares, look how bad it was for me, you are bad anyway etc.

If they came on here saying, oh she doesn't speak to us, we are so sad, I am glad that people are using the language that they are.

But all in all, abuse is a dirty business and it leaves harm in its wake - and that is why people say 'JUST LEAVE' but the current tail ends of patriarchy are still causing problems AND the human response to trauma is a factor too. My brother and sister are in denial because they don't want to face up to the truth.

You've counted my posts

No it was an estimate. Was It a good estimate?

OPs thread has become part projection fodder

And now apparently an “interesting read” for others

Anyone would think there wasn’t a real person asking for help behind it all