Son wants nothing to do with me!

[Wilf1975]

I was married to my first husband, we had a son & daughter together. My husband was mentally, physically & emotionally abusive to the three of us. I eventually found the strength to leave him when my son was 8 and my daughter was 6.
Six months of him leaving my husband took an overdose and ended up in a vegetative state in a nursing home for four years until he died in 2013.
The three of us were always close until my son started going out with his girlfriend 3 years ago. He walked out 2 years ago and I have not really seen him. I have tried everything to try and be included in his life but he doesn’t want that. He totally despises me and blames me for his childhood. My daughter told me yesterday he is getting married in February and will not be inviting me.
I miss him so much, can’t help but think there is something wrong with me. I have a rubbish relationship with my own mum and didn’t want to end up like that.
I feel tired, the people close to me treat me like rubbish and I don’t think I deserve this. It is just one thing after another, I just want some peace and be a family. It feels like I am always picking up after other people and have no say in things. I feel so sad..........

OP, I understand it was difficult.

You say that you are not self pitying and don't ask "why me?" But your first post was asking what is wrong with you and why do people treat you like rubbish? Your subsequent posts have all been how hard it is/was for you and how sad it makes you. When it was suggested that you listen to your son your answer was that he isn't ready to listen to you yet.

You're also defending yourself a lot (unnecessarily) without answering any of the questions asked of you such as "why were you with him when he died?" - I can imagine that must have been very confusing, frustrating and hurtful for your son.

I wonder if your conversations with your son are equally frustrating, vague and focused on yourself?

It might explain why he claims up when you've tried to talk to him and why he feels that no contact is now the best solution for him.

You might think you're not self pitying or focused on yourself - but that's very much how your posts are coming across.

I really hope you find a way forward with your son but that is not going to happen while you are still so focused on yourself.

You're also defending yourself a lot (unnecessarily) without answering any of the questions asked of you such as "why were you with him when he died?" - I can imagine that must have been very confusing, frustrating and hurtful for your son

What I mean by this is not that you need to explain and justify it to us, more that these are probably questions you need to ask of yourself. And how that might have impacted on your children.

You keep repeating the same justifications/explanations for being in the relationship and staying in it but I think that as a young/mid teenager in your son's position, i would have found it very difficult to understand why you still maintained such an emotional connection to your ex - even after his suicide attempt and being in a vegetative state.

He was no longer able to exert any control over you at that point and yet you still gave him that control. I would suspect this is behind a lot of your son's current feeling.

He might be able to accept you staying in the marriage but not understand why you did this.

Do you know why you did it?

So the first post I had just been told by my daughter that I wasn’t invited to his wedding. I was hurt & upset but respect his wishes as it’s his & his girlfriend’s day and will only be awkward. I don’t want him to be stressed on an important happy day. Me being there would be stressful, it still hurts though.

Just to make it clear I didn’t take my children with me whilst I sat with their father and they don’t know that I was there. Dying alone is horrible and if I had divorced him it wouldn’t have been my problem but was still next of kin. Things like getting a death certificate and was an inquest too. Still had debts in joint names etc so still tied. From looking in I suppose it is an odd thing to do but it was closure and reassurance that it was all over. I told them the following day their dad had died, we spent time together. You see if I didn’t tell them their dad had died then that would have been a problem too.
I was his next of kin, his family didn’t want to sort out anything. The children attended the funeral to say goodbye. I sat down with them and we discussed it, that’s what they chose and it was closure.
My son’s behaviour changed massively when he met his girlfriend. He lied, stole off me and would shout/scream at me. He would also get in my face and on one or two occasions pushed me. I supported him when he moved in with his girlfriend. He went to counselling and he openly blamed me. We went out as a family to celebrate his A level results, he did very well. He then started an argument then tells me he’s not going to university. It’s his life his choice but then proceeded to be cruel. He pulled me apart in front of the whole restaurant. I never said anything just listened, in the end I had to get up and go back to the car. He calmly finished his meal and got in the car for a lift back to his. So all of you are criticising me you all think that behaviour is okay because I deserve it???

I'm absolutely appalled by the ignorance around DV in this thread. I think many of the sentiments expressed in these posts are actively harmful, and will discourage women from revealing DV to others. I think the entire thread should be pulled, because it is so harmful in propagating myths around DV.

Thank you to the poster who discussed the systemic issues facing women who are being abused.

And no, it's not that I just 'don't get the child's perspective'. I was physically and verbally assaulted by my mother throughout my teens. Been very much there and done that. And I still think the attitudes towards mothers who are being abused is disgraceful.

This thread has disgusted me. Women are always in the wrong. Been around MN for a long time as a lurker and under different names but this is not for me any more I do know of someone who has disowned his mother (not me, close relative) his mum wasnt perfect but he has been an utter bastard to her. I know many adult DC go no contact for good reason but there are a few who are just horrible and abusive to their parents. I hope things work out for you OP but I'm out now

Women are always in the wrong

They're not. But they're not always automatically in the right on everything either.

People can only respond to what a poster has written.

You see if I didn’t tell them their dad had died then that would have been a problem too.

I don't think anyone would suggest you should have kept this from them. I think you did the right thing by telling them.

A pp poster is right that childhood trauma is a trigger for BPD. It might well be that your son and his girlfriend have bonded over this shared history.

I disagree with previous posters who have said that you should write to him telling him what it was like for you at the time. He doesn't need to hear that now. I think you can only be open to him if he does return.

Sadly, it is because of the long term damage growing up in this environment does that it is taken so seriously by SS etc. This current situation isn't your fault but it isn't your son's either. You are both trying to deal with your own emotions and process your own experiences in your own way and, rightly or wrongly, this is what he needs to do for himself now.

As parents we are often told that 'all behaviour is communication'. We just need to try and understand what is being communicated. When he met his girlfriend and his behaviour changed, what do you think he was trying to communicate? (You don't have to answer, it was a rhetorical question really).

I hope you find a way forward.

I am sorry your son is behaving like this - it is not acceptable or normal and I think it is probably best that you both take some time away from each other.

You were both victims of this horrible man. And your son probably has some very complicated feelings about his childhood and both his parents.

I will repeat the advice you have been given here over and over again. Give him time. But if he does come back be very clear about what behaviour you will and will not tolerate. If he can’t have a normal loving relationship with you then he can’t be around you.

He may well be angry at you for not protecting him sooner, but you did protect him. At some point he has to move on, and he has to understand that behaving this way is totally unacceptable. No one deserves it

But if he does come back be very clear about what behaviour you will and will not tolerate

I think that's reasonable but I also think the OP needs to tread carefully. That abusive environment is pretty much all he's ever known.

OP, if you were to do this, I'd make sure he knows that his feelings on the matter are perfectly understandable and reasonable but that his behaviour in response to it (the lying, pushing, shouting in public and stealing) are not.

Getting a bit of headspace from it all is probably the healthiest thing he's done so far to deal with it, tbh.

I agree @JanesKettle and @Idontlikethatship. I've never seen such a hostile thread towards a women who has survived an abusive relationship and escaped with her children. People bringing up baby P's mother etc. which is a totally different situation to the OP's. @Wilf1975 has made is clear repeatedly that she did the best she could in a horrendous situation and is trying to repair the damage that her ex partner caused. She has been met with disbelief, been called abusive herself and negligent, selfish and unsympathetic to her children which I can clearly see couldn't be further from the truth.

Asking women 'why did you not just leave' is insulting to any woman that has been in an abusive relationship. The women who are actively complicit in this type of abuse is rare which is why it often makes headlines (baby P for example). The overwhelming majority are in very complex situations which society cannot understand. There is enough prejudice against women in this world without other women shaming a fellow woman for reaching out for support. Where is the anger at the father for causing all of this pain and trauma? Why is he not being held under the spotlight for not protecting his children?

The only person who should receive the anger shown on this thread is the perpetrator of abuse, not the victims of it.

In the next breath, I see thread after thread where women are clearly being abused and although the majority on here pick up on it, there is still a significant number who say people 'jump' to the conclusion of abuse. It is a terribly confusing time to be in an abusive relationship and if even outsiders who are not being emotionally manipulated cannot see it, then what chance does the woman IN the relationship have? Being brainwashed by an abuser is a world away from being complicit.

A pp poster is right that childhood trauma is a trigger for BPD. It might well be that your son and his girlfriend have bonded over this shared history

Yes. The thing is that people with untreated BPD can be very difficult and can form intense and unstable relationships. The OP's son is very young still, has had a very bad time of it and is now with an unstable young woman.

His behaviour has suddenly become abusive in itself - stealing, lying, verbally abusive and bordering on violent. From the sound of it he's not the most stable person in himself, though for good reason.

I still don't see how any of his very sad childhood justifies the complete pasting of the OP on this thread. It's not AIBU.

The number of people who have been reading all sorts of stuff into this situation on the basis of their own experience is scary.

OP you don't need to get defensive, to explain any more or to be upset, though it's understandable if you were. It might help to read the measured posts which seem to be written by people who aren't entirely lost in their own experiences, accept the -constructive- criticism and advice on how to cope with this, and let the rest of the crap go.

The only person who should receive the anger shown on this thread is the perpetrator of abuse, not the victims of it.

And certainly not the women who risk their lives, their childrens' lives, and the further abuse they will almost certainly receive in Family Court (where children's rights to be free of an abuser are routinely ignored, and mothers punished for 'alienating' children from their fathers for 'crying' abuse) in order to leave.

The reason nobody has laid into the father is because it goes without saying he’s a cunt, and if he were still alive nobody would give a fuck about discussing the why’s and wherefore’s of why his ds doesn’t want anything to do with him, or trying to suggest things to possibly solve it. The phrase abusive cunt would cover it. With op, that isn’t at all the case.

I would also suggest that his bad behaviour is easy to understand. Most teens are stroppy and unreasonable at some point, but with the added complexity of his background, it’s not a wild leap to say that his is likely to be far more extreme.

Also, going from ops more recent posts where she just wants to concentrate on the future, doesn’t really see why she should listen to any blame he might have for her and just wants to explain her side, I can fully empathise with his outbursts.

None of us realise as children just how badly fucked up our childhoods were. It’s only as we get older and get a wider experience of what is normal that the horror actually hits. If ops ds had reached that stage, and the response he got from op was explanations of her side and her desire to move forward, or he already knew that would be the response, it’s not surprising if his way of coping was to bottle it up and then explode.

Also, at the risk of sounding like I’m projecting, I can see his side of the restaurant issue. If he thinks op doesn’t really care because x, being given material things and expected to play happy families in public is an explosion waiting to happen.

Obviously as op isn’t my mother, I’m not for a moment suggesting she doesn’t care and was simply doing it for show. I highly doubt that is the case. But if what he really needed was to have his anger/ resentment heard, and his need was ignored from his pov, I imagine his frustration would be the same.

Essentially op needs to decide whether her desire to explain herself and avoid any possible blame from her ds and focus on the future is more important than trying to salvage their relationship.

So all of you are criticising me you all think that behaviour is okay because I deserve it???

No. You're just spectacularly missing the point. Try reading this.

www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

Not really sure what people expect, I'm not perfect but I am not going to tolerate being degraded because my son isn’t happy. My son said wasn’t going to university, then kicked off because I didn’t bite. His behaviour was disgraceful and i’m Suppose to so that’s okay because you had an abusive childhood. I as the parent are not allowed this because I should know better.
So i’m Suppose to allow people to speak to me as they wish? Am I not important in any of this.
If I didn’t care I would be relieved that he becomes somebody else’s problem. I worry for my sons mental health and what he will do. I have read lots saying that children from abusive childhoods go on to be abusive.

Adults are supposed to mitigate damaging environments as vulnerable children rely on said adults for their protection and wellbeing.

You want a relationship on your own terms, and your posts just indicate that you care about your own feelings, you're worried about your son's mental health but your offer of support isn't unconditional.

Yes, abused children have a greater risk of becoming abusers, happily (and as this thread shows) it's very possible to break the cycle.

Absolutely not on my terms, my son has done everything on his terms. I ask him what’s wrong and I listen. He throws everything back at me and yes I was to blame for some of it but not everything. His bad childhood was down to his abusive father. I am picking up the pieces, I can only say sorry so many times. My son can behaviour as he wishes because as this thread consistently tells me I deserve it.

Well let me enlighten you, we were all abused and my children don’t know how much. The physical violence I had bruises he did this to me. The psychological/emotional/sexual abuse is hard because the scars aren’t visible. We all suffered, not one worse than the other but the person who was suppose to love us the most let us all down. Somebody said that I couldn’t use my age when we got together he was 8 years older than me and it wasn’t a healthy relationship but I didn’t think I deserved better. Tired now of having to defend myself to people who really have no idea.....

Ditto what steve said. If anything your subsequent post just illustrates it further. You also seem unable to recognise your own double standards, you want your childhood taking into account but don’t seem to be able to acknowledge his childhood, when you are the parent. Why would he believe you always did your best, even if you did, if your attitude to him now comes across as about your feelings, your suffering, your childhood, rather than his issues?

I also think it’s somewhat off that you say none of you suffered more than the other. Surely your child’s suffering is a million times worse than your own regardless of the severity?

Also, you may think people have no idea, but I can assure you many of us possibly have more personal experience than we’d like.

I say my children have no idea as to what happened. Things that are never appropriate to talk to about to your kids. I have never told my children about the name calling, him forcing himself on me, the ridicule. The things that happened to me I would never discuss with my children. I did my upmost to stop them being picked on by their father. My kids have always come first. I feel that I am taking the responsibility for my husbands actions when I had no redress over his behaviour.
I can’t talk about my son because I really don’t know how he feels about all this, although he shows much contempt towards me and do you know what. If he came back I would be there for him.
This post has shown how judgemental people are. I should be glad that I stood up to there father, it wasn’t easy. Since their fathers death they have lived in a loving family environment. Can’t do much than that. Although i’m Sure lots of you will criticise......

@Wilf1975, I'd suggest you stop replying to this thread as the last two posters have their own agenda and have no interest in supporting you.

Train and Steve, shame on you both! Your comments are ignorant, biased, judgemental and goady. You don't understand domestic violence AT ALL. If you want to be part of the solution and not part of the problem, I'd suggest you research the topic in depth before you wade in on threads like this.

Also, you may think people have no idea, but I can assure you many of us possibly have more personal experience than we’d like.

Quite.

I don't understand? Unfortunately my own childhood means that I understand far more than I'd ever like to. Agenda? No. OPs posts demonstrate clearly her take on things, I've even provided a link to Issendai that deals with estrangement issues and so many of the points raised in the piece are reflected in OPs postings.

I've done extensive research on childhood trauma, have read widely, and contribute regularly on the SH threads, yet I'm ignorant, goady, judgemental and biased. I'll give you biased, I'm extremely biased against childhood abuse and neglect.

I've nothing to be ashamed of in my postings.

jaffa ditto what simply said.

Plus shame on you for your attempt to deflect the advice given by dismissing it as an agenda when that clearly isn’t the case.

Op originally posted for a solution, not to be patted on the head and be reassured she did her best. And the situation she is now in is irrefutable evidence that her current/ previous methods of solving it with explanations of her pov, and the desire to focus on the future aren’t resolving anything. Which means she needs to approach it from his pov.

Something that is increasingly unlikely when ignorant, judgemental, biased posters wade in with their inability to comprehend others posts throughout the thread, causing them to leap to incorrect conclusions about both the motive and solutions offered. And their woeful lack of understanding of the subject causes them to try and persuade op to continue down a track that will only make the situation worse, when numerous posters with the understanding you lack are trying to offer constructive advice.

If in 20yrs time op is further estranged from her son with all avenues entirely closed, I don’t think she’ll feel any better knowing some randomers on the internet were once all nice and sympathetic. Whereas she may think I’m being harsh now, but if that opens a path to understanding where her ds is coming from and possibly salvaging the relationship, I doubt that in 20yrs she’ll be sat brooding over the fact she once felt some randomers online were being unsympathetic.

You want to encourage op down a destructive line of thought, then crack on. But don’t pretend it comes from your greater experience or from the moral high ground you’ve inexplicably awarded yourself.

@wilf1975 - I think you're getting a terrible time on here.
You sound like such a caring person and mother.
I think you need to come clean and tell him the Whole truth from start to finish and stop protecting him.

In a letter if need be, so that he really understands the awful dilemma you were in and how you did your very best at the time.

Unfortunately he is now abusive towards you, and this might make him reflect on his own behaviour.
I wish you all the very best.

But don’t pretend it comes from your greater experience or from the moral high ground you’ve inexplicably awarded yourself.

I would say that is exactly what you are both doing. It sounds like you have alot of experience from the child's perspective and anger about your own situation which is understandable but you both refuse to accept the complexities of domestic violence. You seem intent on pounding on the OP until she relents and agrees with you that she should take on full responsibility for what happened as if she were the perpetrator, to allow her son to rage at her endlessly until he feels better about his experience whilst entirely denying the fact that it was difficult for everyone involved and there may be more going on with OP's son than what is on this thread.

If you are so passionate about the subject, why not go down to your local womens shelter and hear the stories of what these women have had to endure to protect their children. Be part of the solution and not the problem. No one is denying that children are not impacted by domestic violence but to put the blame wholly on the women and ask her to repent for the rest of her life and sacrifice herself on the alter doesnt help anyone in the situation.

And their woeful lack of understanding of the subject causes them to try and persuade op to continue down a track that will only make the situation worse I'm assuming neither of you have been in that situation yourself as adults? You yourself have a woeful lack of understanding about the dynamics and psychology behind DV. I think the suggestions you are making to OP would make YOU feel better if your own mother did those things for YOU but this thread is not about your own situation and you have no real idea about what OP's exact issues are. You're working from your own assumptions and a tiny bit of back story from OP.

I have said repeatedly that I have experience of both being a child and adult in this situation and have done my own research into how witnessing DV impacts children. You are not the only person on this thread who experienced DV as a child but seem to think you are somehow morally superior because of your own experiences. You seem stuck in this train of thought, unable to even consider there may be more to the story which is why I say you have your own agenda.

You say you are talking from the son's POV but you dont actually know what that is, you only know your own so there is alot of projection going on here. You're making assumptions about what will work and implying that that is the only solution and in the process, being cold and critical of a women who has survived DV, escaped with her children and is clearly trying to make amends.

You are both arrogant for thinking you are the only posters on this thread who are 'qualified' to give any advice to the OP and unable to take on board anything that doesnt fit with your own perspective.

Over and out on this thread because it's simply distressing. I'm so sorry you've had this response OP and I hope you are able to access support elsewhere

Respect and strength OP. I am appalled by many of the PPs. I believe some are MRA trolls. I've no doubt they are laughing about it in some MRA forum. I hope MN can moderate these trolls more effectively. And I also came from an abusive family upbringing. Huge admiration for you for leaving someone so dangerous. You are a heroine. Your son will realise that one day.