Son wants nothing to do with me!

[Wilf1975]

I was married to my first husband, we had a son & daughter together. My husband was mentally, physically & emotionally abusive to the three of us. I eventually found the strength to leave him when my son was 8 and my daughter was 6.
Six months of him leaving my husband took an overdose and ended up in a vegetative state in a nursing home for four years until he died in 2013.
The three of us were always close until my son started going out with his girlfriend 3 years ago. He walked out 2 years ago and I have not really seen him. I have tried everything to try and be included in his life but he doesn’t want that. He totally despises me and blames me for his childhood. My daughter told me yesterday he is getting married in February and will not be inviting me.
I miss him so much, can’t help but think there is something wrong with me. I have a rubbish relationship with my own mum and didn’t want to end up like that.
I feel tired, the people close to me treat me like rubbish and I don’t think I deserve this. It is just one thing after another, I just want some peace and be a family. It feels like I am always picking up after other people and have no say in things. I feel so sad..........

It isn’t victim blaming or a lack of empathy No, but 'You reap what you sow' to an abusive victim definitely is both of those.

It isn’t victim blaming or a lack of empathy to point out that ops son has a right to be angry with or feel hurt by her, and a right to be heard

Absolutely no-one has said that OPs son has no right to be angry or hurt. Show me who said that? Do you not understand that it's possible to feel empathy for both OP and her son?

Why have you allowed the first and biggest offender's posts to remain? When you reported pulling posts that were victim-blaming, I was relieved. Instead, her vitriol remains the centerpiece of this thread. OhHimAgain got her story in first and has controlled and obliterated anything anyone said that might convey support to the OP. She set the tone for the entire thread. It's sad that she had an abusive childhood but the situation was vastly different. The OP didn't stay with her abuser in order to shop at nice stores and go on holiday. She was violently abused and you're allowing so many posters to blame/shame her.

Many of us have abusive backgrounds. In my case I HAVE been where the OP is, to a certain extent. Abused child, abused wife, and mother to children who confronted me in anger as adults. I live with guilt and regret every day. Just as my mother did, I let my kids scream and yell and cry, spilling their anger all over me. And I told them how sorry I was, without making excuses. My mother did that with me and I was able to forgive her. My children forgave me. And seem to understand why it was so hard for me to leave. We are all very close now, but there's no point in sharing any of that when this entire thread was derailed by people taking out misplaced anger from their childhood on the OP, who needs support. She has had to give entirely too many details to attempt to defend herself, instead of getting advice and support.

In this case, I'm really disappointed with MN and the moderation of this thread.

One last thing, OhHimAgain continues to deny blaming the OP, but "You reap what you sow." in her initial comment was directly aimed at the OP. Her suggesting she meant the deceased father is ridiculous and insulting.

Beenwhereyouare, thank you so much for your post.
I have always acknowledged my part that I played in the situation to both my children. I have apologised that their upbringing was rubbish, that they have had to go through so much rubbish in their childhood more than some people do in their lifetime.
I come from a background where nobody ever takes responsibility for their actions always somebody else’s fault so I have always been aware to take responsibility for my actions.
All three of us have had counselling and I am aware the damage the abuse had on me like if my boss wants to talk to me I automatically think what have I done, my pulse races & get panicky so I hate to think what it is like for my children.
I would like to at some point explain what happened and it’s not dismissing my children’s feelings or making excuses but explain. I know that might never be possible and doesn’t make any of us feel better.
I really miss my son, the thought of never seeing him again is just heartbreaking but I have to respect his wishes. I don’t think anything I do for him at the moment would right.
I was so looking forward to this stage in life where my children go off and become who they are meant to be & watch them flourish

The thread is heavily polarised. Firstly those who were abused as kids who think that the Mother in these situations should leave - the minute ANY abuse is directed at their kids. Secondly those who are suggesting that the Mother is as much of a victim as the kids (I assume mostly from women who may have been abused themselves.) I fall into the first category but that is probably because I did not have a good childhood and I admit that, as a result, my experiences will affect my judgement.

We all know who was primarily at fault....the man. This is surely not contested. I fully understand that it must be horrendously difficult in many cases for a woman to leave an abusive partner. However, for posters to suggest that leaving is 'more dangerous' is far more likely to stop vulnerable women from leaving..... surely you would not advocate a woman stays with an abuser in case he kills her? That is preposterous.

Yes it's complex, yes it's devastating for all involved but....kids are more vulnerable than adult women. Surely we are not at a stage in feminism in which women are considered to be on a par with children as far as being helpless and vulnerable?

We all know that social services are woefully underfunded, as are the police and the NHS. This should not rule out the autonomy of Mothers and their duty to protect their kids from any situation in which they are put at risk (emotionally or physically).

I am not necessarily directing this at the OP, she left and she did the right thing. But, to not report any attack on a child is, to a certain extent enabling it to continue. How can you argue that this is not the case? You can not allow a child (your own or anyone else's to be hit, ridiculed, neglected or violated in any way). Women who have been subject to abuse are not responsible for what happens to them but, as adults, they are responsible for what happens to their children. If they have to stay with their abuser (for whatever reason), then so be it. Just make sure the kids aren't living through the hell as well.

I’m disgusted at some of the victim blaming and vile comments that are on this thread. A woman suffering extreme domestic abuse managed to find the courage to leave and ensure the safety of her kids and yet it was her fault that her kids witnessed abuse, and she deserves to “reap what she sowed?” Seriously??
Op you are a brave strong woman and I congratulate you for how far you have come. The fact that you have a close relationship with your daughter shows that you are a good parent despite the hell you went through. Your ds is still struggling with it all and I sincerely hope that he gets himself some decent professional help that will allow him to understand that his father caused the damage to the whole family, and that you were a victim too. Hopefully one day he will be able to make his peace with the past and you.

I think it's important to make the distinction between "Women who realise that they are being abused should leave as soon as they can in order to minimise the damage to their children" (which is true, if not always possible) and "Women whose children are damaged by domestic abused are to blame even though they were not the violent ones" (which is bullshit).

I had a very damaging childhood, and I find that I still (in my 40's) only realise how messed up parts of it were, when I see how different my own children's lives are, or when I see healthy family relationships around me. Each time it makes me angry and takes me some time to process. My parents don't care about my pain, but even if they did, when I feel like this I don't want to see or speak to them. Hopefully the OP's son will feel able to get in touch with her once he has had some time and space to think. He has both the abuse and the suicide of a parent to cope with and that's bound to feel worse at such an important time in his life.

I wish you all the best, OP and I hope that you can work this out.

This argument about who is most affected by abuse is getting tiresome and not helping the OP. By acknowledging that abuse severely affects the women does not in any way detract from the fact that it also affects the children. It isn't a competition FFS! Abuse is damaging full stop. Many women end up with PTSD and so do many children. There is a difference to a women taking accountability for some poor choices and taking full responsibility for the whole thing.

However, for posters to suggest that leaving is 'more dangerous' is far more likely to stop vulnerable women from leaving. this isn't about advice, it is about statistics. Women are statistically more likely to be killed during or after the time they leave. Each story is complex and the circumstances are different. There is no black and white here and no one can 'imagine' what they would do in that specific set of circumstances.

As I said before, I have been on BOTH sides of this and both situations were deeply traumatic. I agree I have to take accountability for staying with my exH but at the same time, I didnt have all of the information, emotional maturity and hindsight that I have now and I'm not in the middle of a campaign by a psychopath to destroy me. All you can do is apologise for those poor choices and help your children deal with the aftermath which OP has done by going to counselling with them. We dont know the specifics of what has been said to her son or even why he isn't speaking to her. For all we know it has nothing to do with any of this.

For those who are saying it's a feminist issue to tell women they are too weak to leave, you have absolutely no idea about how abuse works. I'm a staunch feminist and the ONLY way to prevent women and children from being abused is to increase education, increase legal powers and increase support for BOTH.

rain if you’ve read the full thread you will be aware of the remarks about how op should explain her side to him, that he’s like his father, it’s misplaced blame etc. And imho everyone piling on ohHim is also denying his right to be angry and hurt.

It’s irrelevant whether the situations were the same. And ime anyone who thinks that it is has completely missed the point. The child victim isn’t more or less traumatised by the events because the other parent did or didn’t try their best.

When you were abused as a child, it isn’t whether the abuse was physical, emotional or sexual, or whether it was both parents or one that are common ground, let alone comparing individual situations and specific facts that generally mean we can mostly understand each other in a way few outsiders do.

The fact is that it doesn’t matter that wilf wanted to protect her son, or that ohHim had an enabling mother, or that my parents relationship certainly wasn’t victim and abuser, or indeed any of the other situations on this thread or real life. It just comes down to the fact that as a vulnerable child you were abused and had no power to change it.

wilf You might not think you are dismissing his feelings, but the fact you are still voicing your desire to explain, rather than the desire to hear him out could be construed that subconsciously you think he just doesn’t fully understand.

I'm a staunch feminist and the ONLY way to prevent women and children from being abused is to increase education, increase legal powers and increase support for BOTH.

Agreed. And you're right. It isn't a competition. I hope my post didn't come across that way. We need proper intervention, education and support. I whole heartedly agree with you on that. It would make it so much easier for women to leave abusive men if they knew they had these things in place.

I was in no way suggesting that it is the woman's fault, but I think that in putting both sides forward is important. All I am trying to say is that some women have very limited and often frightening options. Children, on the whole, have none.

@Wilf1975 I am battling the same issue and I am just so sad.

My problem is that the abuse was done in the politest, calmest way. I was the one who was screaming and crazy.

"“People very high on the narcissist scale are the only people that, with time, appear healthier and healthier in a relationship, while the victim appears sicker and sicker… and, to the untrained eye, a lot of times people don’t realize what’s going on and because of that, the victim ends up being emotionally abused for years and years and then they receive secondary abuse by professionals who don’t understand what’s going on and who think that the problem lies with this person because their symptoms look so clear.”

So they have chosen their calm, gentle sounding father even though he continues to mess up their lives, because he doesn't sound crazy.

It is the saddest thing. I am an utter failure on all fronts. I am going to follow the advice of someone who says, apart from birthdays etc, just accept the situation and leave them alone, and hope time helps.

My problem is that the abuse was done in the politest, calmest way. I was the one who was screaming and crazy.

So they have chosen their calm, gentle sounding father even though he continues to mess up their lives, because he doesn't sound crazy.

My Mother was a narcissistic, psychotic, abusive, neglectful woman throughout my childhood. My Father her willing, passive, weak, enabler.

Frankly I don't wish to spent any time with them and am VLC.

It's pointless having a conversation, or writing them a letter, about my childhood as they will ignore everything I say and rewrite history to suit their own egos.

Besides, they absolutely know the reasons for my estrangement. They simply don't view any of what happened as a problem for them, regardless that I see hundreds of issues and major issues. This is extremely common.

@SimplySteveRedux I wouldn't deny it though.

I really get that they were caught between two loons.

The problem is that any explanation I can give is that I was being systematically devalued by their father (infidelity, cruelty, disdain, abandonment, undermining me in front of them) and I was reacting, whilst desperately trying to keep the family together. That is not their problem and they don't want to hear that.

So, I take my punches.

@ScreamingLadySutch, please try to forgive yourself also though. What you have described is really commen and I certainly had my moments when I just couldn't take it anymore and lost my shit. The abuse is crazy making (and they intend for it to be so).

Its really sad that your DC dont want to have a relationship with you but you have done all you can by 'owning' your mistakes. It doesnt help anyone to beat yourself up for how you reacted when your back was up against the wall and was being subjected to daily humiliation and control. It's so easy with hindsight to judge yourself harshly but it won't help anything by staying stuck in the past. The future is about healing yourself and leaving the door open for your DC.

For me I do feel that my husband has won, even after 11 years still picking up the pieces.
I stood up to him and he then made it about him attempting suicide. The guilt that goes alongside that is awful. Should I have left? Could I have done things differently? The what ifs are endless..... And as this thread has shown people’s attitudes well she must have been awful to exclude him from his family there must be something wrong with her. What did she do to make him do it? The judgements people make are horrible.
I remember going to the solicitor for 30 minutes legal advice for a divorce and explained what had been happening, like that was quite normal. I always remember the solicitor was so kind & supportive & helped me realise it wasn’t normal.
A week before that appointment, things had really escalated and I was tired/fed up. I remember being in the kitchen just got in from work. I asked him for a divorce, he picked up a knife and put it in my face. I remember looking into his eyes and something had changed at that point I knew he could have used the knife. I remember crying and he said I had made him do it, it was all my fault....(my children were upstairs and not watching before somebody says anything)
I know that I have contributed to the problem with my son, I can’t talk about their Dad to them, just can’t.
My son is angry that I didn’t ask my mum for financial help to make our lives easier. My mum made it very clear to me that I had made my bed, she refused to help. I don’t really know how I avoided bankruptcy but I did more luck than judgment.
All 3 of us have suffered in different ways, I have made mistakes and I know my children ask to be emotionally abused, I did my best to keep them away from their father by separate meal times, going out (outside the house he was charming). I know they saw things and heard things that they just shouldn’t have. I feel I let them down, the posters who said I had a choice is true if it had been a healthy loving relationship but that’s not how abusive relationships are.

Haven't read other people's replies, mainly just the ops, but I do feel sorry for op.

You did the best you could with what hand you were dealt essentially. Yeah the what ifs are there, if you'd left earlier, if you'd done things differently, but everyone's life is like that. What's done is done, and you made the best of it. You sound really apologetic for what happened and upset with how your children were treated. Maybe I'm wrong, but you sound genuine, I don't believe that you're blaming anyone but yourself for what happened.

I'm sorry your son is acting the way he is. I'm guessing that maybe old traumas are coming back to him, maybe he repressed some of it for years and being with his girlfriend/fiancee is bringing it out.

You could try and suggest more counselling for you both together, maybe with your daughter too? Show him you want to be part of his life and that you're sorry. I know you have but if the painful memories have resurfaced then everything previously is out of the window now, all counselling, all apologies. You have to start again.

Hope that you get it sorted with your son.

@TinyTempahh I know exactly what I did wrong and I think you have a point there.

I feel sad and sorry but I can't make it right, so I take my punches.

He has the £££ and he pays, so they must focus on him.

My only hope is that they are able to tell me how angry they feel, and hopefully that will lead to better things in the future.

he then made it about him attempting suicide

Why were you at his bedside when he died after years in a vegetative state?

Why did you not see this as your final 'out' and leave him to it?

That's not a prejorative question. I genuinely don't understand why you would do that and subject yourself and your children to his abusive behaviour long after he was effectively gone. Surely that was the get out you needed?

Estrangement is something adult children do not do lightly, it's not performed on a whim. There's a massive life impact from extricating oneself from your familial, hereditary, dynamic

I agree. I don’t regret my decision though and nothing would make me reverse it. I can’t change my childhood but I can make sure my future is better.

I am so sorry for you on this thread Wilf

I hope some of the posts have been helpful.

A couple of people early on commented that the suicide might have had a very big effect on your son were onto something I think.

It's not impossible that your son has been so badly damaged by everything. Now he's been drawn to someone with BPD, who by definition has also had a very hard time of it, and things have spiralled out of control. It's a worrying relationship but all you can do is stand back and hope that he will come again to you in future.

Were your son and daughter ever able to access therapy / mental health support?

wishing you well and that your son comes back to you in time.

Just like to make it very clear I’m not some pathetic victim who wallows in self pity saying why me? Asking why is pointless, as it’s happened I dealt with ( I know some people will say not very well) but I stood up for my children and I.
I try not to think about the past as it’s the future that’s important. I think that’s what has made me feel so sad that I am not included in my son’s future.
I do a job where people don’t have a choice and die way too young. It makes you realise just how important it is to live everyday as it’s your last. I help support people having no choice over their future but I do.
I am proud of how my children have been successful in what they do, both are loving & caring individuals.
So sometimes things catch up with me especially the posters who said I was complicit as my husband or even abusive. They said I shouldn’t explain and listen to my son, I just agree I was as bad as my husband?
Not very fair, I didn’t realise anything was wrong as always my fault exactly what the posters are saying. I didn’t come from a loving family, sorry to say I was 19 when I got with him and didn’t know any better.

I didn’t come from a loving family, sorry to say I was 19 when I got with him and didn’t know any better.

I was 20, DP 18, both abusive childhoods, both shit families, yet somehow we raised our kids with love and respect. Perpetuating the naivety of youth bullshit is just an excuse.

Op, one of the difficult things about abusive families is that children react in different ways - different survival methods - and one of those can be to cut off.
Lots of people are proclaiming in here about how difficult it is to cut off from parents. For me, and my brother, it wasn't. I was emotionally detached growing up in a violent household, and that coupled with things like my parents never encouraging time together as a family, meant that NC to me wasn't even a thing - once I'd moved out, they didn't call me, I didn't call them, but given we'd only done so in the household out of neccessity, why would it have been otherwise?
My brother was one step further, he was so detached that as an adult he's become quite a loner, he rarely speaks to me, or any family - we get on when we do, but he's zero interest otherwise. He's totally self reliant, and that's his protectionist strategy from being a kid. He learnt to live inside his own head, and he isn't interested in much more.
As a contrast my older sister remembered more of the good times and had a better established relationship with parents so see retained contact and struggled to understand our indifference, though she's accepted it for now.

For me, retaining and managing a relationship is far harder than having nothing, and sad though that sounds that's better for me. I don't have the energy or resilience for anything more for now. I can't help but wonder if the coldness that you perceive from your son might be in a similar vein.

All you can do is respect his stance and keep offering.

Bastard abusive men, the havoc they cause. All of this is sad, I am NC with a narc mother who has no capacity to take responsibility for anything that happened in my childhood. OP am not in any way suggesting narcissism, just comparing your apparent self-awareness and ownership of mistakes made, I really hope there is some resolution for all of you