Son wants nothing to do with me!

[Wilf1975]

I was married to my first husband, we had a son & daughter together. My husband was mentally, physically & emotionally abusive to the three of us. I eventually found the strength to leave him when my son was 8 and my daughter was 6.
Six months of him leaving my husband took an overdose and ended up in a vegetative state in a nursing home for four years until he died in 2013.
The three of us were always close until my son started going out with his girlfriend 3 years ago. He walked out 2 years ago and I have not really seen him. I have tried everything to try and be included in his life but he doesn’t want that. He totally despises me and blames me for his childhood. My daughter told me yesterday he is getting married in February and will not be inviting me.
I miss him so much, can’t help but think there is something wrong with me. I have a rubbish relationship with my own mum and didn’t want to end up like that.
I feel tired, the people close to me treat me like rubbish and I don’t think I deserve this. It is just one thing after another, I just want some peace and be a family. It feels like I am always picking up after other people and have no say in things. I feel so sad..........

@LaLoba Agreed. I don't understand the pile-on of @OhHimAgain . OhHimAgain is a classic example of how the OP's son feels. They have been through what the OP's son is going through, and their advice has been excellent and spot on. Truly faultless. Who else better to give advice than someone who IS on the son's shoes? I find it ironic when someone comes on here like Plasebeafleabite who have not contributed at all except to attack another poster, who has.

@TitanTanya44 OP but to suggest that the OP had no choice is almost going against the grain of feminism because it implies that the woman is always helpless, ultimately vulnerable and incapable of making good decisions for herself and her children.

Exactly my issue with this 'victim blaming' nonsense. Not all women are victims. Some are perpetrators. Not all men are perpetrators. Some are victims. DV isn't strictly a female victim only issue. Women are not all helpless little victims who can't think and don't have emotional strength or intellectual strength to leave. This misogynistic attitude pees me off. Us women are doing a good enough job of being our own enemies by making out we are all week little women, to excuse our own actions. Women are not dense. They have as much ability to refuse to accept a situation as a male does. Sure, there are some circumstances where women are truly trapped, however to say our gender are all weak, meek little victims who don't know right from wrong and don't have the ability to do right by our kids is so incredibly sexist, misogynistic and deeply offensive. Is this the 1940s? That people on Mumsnet, in 2019, would persist in perpetuating such sexist, misogynistic stereotypes is baffling to me. Feminism seems dead when you read some of the posts on here that belittles our strength, our mind, our intelligence, and our ability as women. This whole 'women are all vulnerable, brainwashed, trapped victims' is deeply offensive to a feminist. Any feminist.

@OhHimAgain just so as you know, we have all got your message that whatever she did, the OP would always have been to blame. And that must be right, as others are supporting you to tell the OP that (despite MNHQ coming on last night and talking about victim blaming?)

As you say it must not be allowed to make any difference what the mother did, whether she protected her child or joined in (which sort of beggars belief, but we must all defer to you so ....)

In your initial post you told the OP "You reap what you sow". Now you are saying that mothers in the OP's situation must also reap what the abuser sews. Any concern they show for their children will confirm their guilt - both the feeling and the actuality.

@Treesthemovie
Abuse is solely the fault of the abuser but many will jump to blame women for the actions of abusive men.
That is utterly offensive. To suggest a bystander who doesn't act isn't at fault (just because the gender of the bystander is a woman) is an offence to the intelligence and decency of every human being. For example;
a mum stands by while her partner molests/rapes her little girl. She is as bad in most people's eyes, as the paedophile partner himself. Baby P is another example where the woman 'mother' in that situation just could not cared less. She was a monster. Full stop. She wasn't a victim.
Or how about the Catholic Church who refuse to disclose examples of child abuse, child rape, paedophilia heard in confession, or seen by fellow Priests. Would you say the 'bystanders' who stood by and let this happen are simply 'innocent victims' too? Or would you blame them, as basically all (or most) of society would do?
Or maybe if there were a group of guys (actually happened near where I live) who filmed one of the guys who were working on a house kicking a cat right across the fence, and the fellow tradies there mobile-filmed it, while laughing? Most normal people would say the people who laughed and filmed it and didn't intervene or do anything about the cruelty are as bad as the pos who kicked the cat.

See, I have a problem with the whole 'oh but she didn't do it so she is not at fault, only he is'. I feel, it is a cop-out, and it offends the sensibilities of everyone who can think and rationalise. Standing by and doing nothing is as bad, if not morally worse, than the act itself. Imo, and in the opinion of I dare say the vast overwhelming majority of society.

Re the cat incident, the cat was kicked right over a fence and landed in another yard. The pos who did it was caught because they uploaded the clip, obviously all so proud of what they did. Cat was abandoned by it's owners who moved previously, and the owner didn't want to take responsibility for it's medical bills. New owner adopted the cat and paid for it's rehabilitation.

What some on here see as 'victim-blaming' is merely truth-telling that is simply too painful to hear or accept.

Do you know something, Dishing. It doesn't matter how you've spoken to me, I've continued to be polite but it seems your venom towards me is not even allowing you to read my posts properly.

As you say it must not be allowed to make any difference what the mother did, whether she protected her child or joined in (which sort of beggars belief, but we must all defer to you so ....)

You are responding to this from the perspective of the woman; the mother. I can, of course, see that there is a difference between a woman who simply turns a blind eye as long as she still gets nice holidays and a woman who is crying herself to sleep every night in utter desperation because she cannot see a way out.

However, the impact on the child is no different at all.

Why can you not see that the experience of the child is separate from that of the mother and is not determined by her experience?

@LukeSkywalkerHood "My stepdad could have been anyone. He had no emotional ties to me whatsoever. He was just some angry arsehole who targeted a kid. My mother however gave birth to me and was my mother for seven years before he cane along. Yet she watched everything he did, motionless, never comforted me, for years and years, and kept on begging me to call him dad and sit on his lap and cuddle him. "

It is so sad that happened to you. The fact that people are trying to silence, on here of all places, actual victims like yourself is deeply and utterly disgusting. It shows we still have a long way for A women to be truly seen as 'equal' (and not just the bits that are convenient for us) and B Children/adults like you to be TRULY heard, without the 'yeah, but, your mum was just a helpless wee female and as a female, will always be blameless'.

The attitudes of some people on here is absolutely disgraceful, the excusing, the defending, then turning it around to say those like OhHimAgain and you are in the wrong? Smells like gaslighting, to me. It's 2019. Not 1940s. I thought we all called a spade a spade these days, and not minimised harmful behaviour towards children. We have so so so far to go when it comes to feminism, and child's rights, if this board is anything to go by. Absolutely disgusting.

@DishingOutDone what the op considers putting herself between her kids and the abuser and what her son experienced are not necessarily the same thing. He obviously thinks she could have done better and those feelings haven’t come from nowhere.

@Treesthemovie ah but I HAVE been in that position, my dear. Hence I know what I’m talking about.

Now you are saying that mothers in the OP's situation must also reap what the abuser sews. Any concern they show for their children will confirm their guilt - both the feeling and the actuality.

I'd like you to quote where I have said this.

And where I have said it

And where I have said this:

As you say it must not be allowed to make any difference what the mother did

Because now you're just making shit up.

Yes @saranade it is shocking. I can only guess that those on this thread who sympathise with the Op’s son are those who are/ have been in his shoes, and those who are appalled here by the opinions of the abused have either been the mother in that situation and are therefore offended, or have no experience of it at all and are therefore formulating their forthright opinion based on.... I have no idea what.

Thanks for the flowers by the way.

I’d suggest that all of us now ceasefire on this thread. It’s been extremely emotional for a lot of us and opinions are just swirling around and around without end.

I haven't RTFT so sorry if this has been said, or is out of place. I suspect that your DS is actually angry with his Dad. Only his Dad isn't around for him to be angry with, so you are the outlet of his upset and anger. I can't imagine how much that hurts, and I don't have any advice as to how to deal with it, other than to leave it open and possible for him to come back to you if he wants to. Perhaps, in time, he will understand that you are not to blame for his childhood. Have you had much counselling yourself over the years? If not, then I would suggest that you do, not only for support but also to explore some of the feelings that you put in your OP about your relationship with your own mum and how you feel other people treat you. Interesting how even on here you seem to have experienced the same sort of response that you have IRL.

Anyway, sending . I'm really sorry you have had such a hard time.

OP, I really feel for you as I have been on both sides of this (abusive father and abusive exH).

My dad is emotionally abusive and my mum a hopeless codependent and enabler. I find her denial of what happened and is still happening with my F really frustrating and I feel betrayed. It minimises the impact of what he did and I'm angry that she put her need not to rock the boat ahead of her DC's wellbeing but then I also understand she is flawed because of her own abusive childhood.

I have 3 DS and left their dad when they were little but allowed contact to continue as I believed he was only abusive to me. I now see how flawed that was as a child witnessing DV is just as damaging as being abused themselves. Unfortunately I found out later he was also physically abusing them and I cut contact immediately.

I lived for a long time with a victim mentality, which didnt help me or my DC. The truth is I did allow my DC to be subjected to their father but at the same time, I was unable to see things the way I see them now. I have been an enabler and that is very painful to accept as it is the reason I'm so upset with my own mother. The truth is, you have to forgive yourself for what has happened but take accountability also.

I think the best thing you can do at this point is apologise to your son authentically. Admit you let things happen that shouldn't and that you are so sorry for that now. That you were unable to see things clearly at the time but now you have realised the impact that had on him. That's what I would love to hear from my own mum and what I tell my DC now.

I think when we are younger, it's difficult to accept that our parents are the result of their own upbringing and we hold them to very high standards. When he becomes a father himself, he may realise how difficult it is to parent when you have not healed (or recignised) your own childhood wounds and may be able to understand abit more. This has really helped me to maintain a relationship with my own DM.

You can't control how he feels at this time but you can reach out and validate his feelings which I think would be healing for you both. Keep the door open, still send him letters etc and try to call him often. Show him you are willing to try and fix your relationship and focus on his experience without being defensive or justify why you stayed.

opinions are just swirling around and around without end - that is definitely true. I keep replying because I was shocked at how some posters are treating the OP, dressing up attack as "concern" for her son. But all that's going to happen now is we're going to go into "oh no it isn't, oh yes it is" territory. And now we've got @SaraNade telling us that mothers must take the blame as a feminist act?!

Everyone has given advice for the OP and her son, and if you pick through the witch hunt, there is some consistent advice therein. I really hope @Wilf1975 hid the thread ages ago - to be honest I was hoping she'd asked to have it withdrawn because its so damaging to women trying to get away particularly being in "relationships". Have to leave it there and just hope the OP's family can find peace of mind.

@SaraNade you are clueless as to the dynamics in abuse situations and really could do with educating yourself on the topic. We are not talking about neglect scenarios which is what you describe - saying all women who do not leave their abusive partners simply "stand by and watch", which is what you and a few other ignorant posters have implied, is just incorrect and yes, victim blaming. Again, I hope you never find yourself in that situation as you would be woefully unequipped to deal with the reality of the situation.

@DishingOutDone agreed.

@DishingOutDone "dressing up attack as "concern" for her son" No, that is how you WISH to see it as. Those posting have actual experience in the position of the son, you clearly, have zero experience. And if you can't see how you suggesting women are ALWAYS helpless is anti-feminist- omg. smh

saying all women who do not leave their abusive partners simply "stand by and watch", which is what you and a few other ignorant posters have implied, is just incorrect

Again, literally not one person has said that all women who do not leave their abusive partners "simply stand by and watch".

What I have said is that it doesn't make any difference to the experince of the child whether the mother is complicit or terrified and desperate to leave.

The child's experience is no different.

I don't understand why people can't see that. It's actually really basic.

@Treesthemovie Sorry, but it is you whom is deeply, deeply ignorant and ill-informed on this topic. You clearly have zero experience in this, and could do with an education. "neglect scenarios which is what you describe"

You clearly cannot comprehend that neglect can come in a variety of forms. Either as a participant, or as an enabler. What happens to a child in this situation is a form of neglect. Emotional, at the least. I suggest you contact by some method, a child Psychologist and ask them to explain it to you. In your need to paint women as helpless victims, you show a disturbing lack of insight into the effect of abuse on a child.

Victim blaming as a concept should not be used to minimize the effects of someone's behaviour on others. It's being used as a crutch by which to not look deeper into what is a hugely complex system.

There's also black and white thinking going on where if you say the sons feelings are valid and real, around the mum not protecting him then that's the same as blaming the mum. These systems are complex and you can hold a lot of these ideas as true at the same time as long as it's done with compassion.

Victim blaming as a concept should not be used to minimize the effects of someone's behaviour on others. It's being used as a crutch by which to not look deeper into what is a hugely complex system.

Exactly! Very well said. And this dangerous concept is one that is very damaging to women. Some of the posts on here are as shocking as they are as disturbing. It sounds like something out of Stepford Wives or the Handmaidens Tale where women and meek, have no minds of their own, aren't strong emotionally or intellectually. Women are no different intellectually or emotionally than men. This neo anti-feminism is dragging women backwards, and there are people on this very thread, who are going along with it. I just can't....
[need a banging head against brick wall emoticon]

@saranade in fact, I have been the victim of a physically and abusive relationship, which I have left. I am far from ignorant on the topic, I have read books from experts on the topic and lived it myself.
I don't need to get in touch with a child psychologist to know that abuse has effects on a child - we all know this. This makes no difference whatsoever to the fact that you are victim blaming. The abuser is at fault for abuse...this line of argument you are going down is similar to the notion that women who are promiscuous "enable" their own rape.

@Jaffacakesaremyfave accountability, you’ve nailed it. It’s not blaming victims of DV to point out that their children will need them to be responsible for healing them in the aftermath. I hope you and your DC are doing well in healing together.

@SaraNade this thread has disturbed me. It’s like listening to my family all over again, the minimising, the outright gaslighting in the black and white thinking and the conclusions jumped to, and the insistence that the child who speaks up about their abuse is the cause of the problems here. Genuinely upsetting, not just because of my personal experience, but to see it on Mumsnet of all places. For my peace of mind I probably shouldn’t be reading, let alone engaging. Might head over to Stately Homes to calm down. Thank you to those who have put the child’s view across, it is sanity saving to know that I’m not alone.

The notion that "strong women don't allow themselves to be abused" is in fact the most 1950s, backwards, anti feminist notion on this thread. "Strong" women are not raped, hit, emotionally abused because they don't allow themselves to be - is that right? I am glad you have lived such a sheltered life, if you can believe this.