Demise of marriage? Feelings turned by one conversation!

[Freetodowhatiwant]

I don’t really know where to start. I have been with DH for almost 20 years and married for almost 10. We had a lot of fun for the 10 years prior to getting married – travelling and plenty of going out. I’ve been with him since age 25 and am now 45. He is 11 years older but this isn’t an issue, he’s very youthful in many ways. We have two children aged 7 and 4.

Our relationship has many positive aspects – when we have time to hang around together we laugh and share the similar interests. There are no significant domestic issues in terms of housework and cooking. He used to do much more than me pre-kids and now I do probably more as I am at home more (work from home). The house is a bit of a mess but this is because of the kids and we both try our best so that’s not a huge issue even though there is the occasional argument about this I think it's normal.

To my friends who’ve moaned about their partners for other reasons (two have DHs who don’t do anything around the house) I have always said that mine and DH’s relationship is 80% good, not perfect but enough to keep us together.

Herein lies the problem though. The 20% bad has been his anger issues. He had had them from the beginning. Most of the males in his family had the same issues. He often gets angry for no reason. Getting ready in the morning is a particular issue. He will shout and stomp around and if the anger is directed at me can sometimes seriously intimidate me. He has never hit me but he has loomed over me many times and his face and body are terrifying. He’s 6ft and I’m 5.5ft so he has a height and physical presence that can scare me. There have been times this has happened in front of the children and the children and I have all been hugging and waiting until it passes. He’s a mental health professional (I know) so there are times when he has been able to keep this under control for a while (taking St John’s Wort helps) but there have been many times when he is angry and I feel like I am treading on egg shells. Sometimes this has been on a daily basis, particularly for a few hours in the morning, and has ruined a good part of the day. He is always sorry afterwards and he knows he is out of order. I am not perfect of course, but I am just focusing on DH’s anger issues. I am by nature, I think, quite a happy person but when he has one of these angry episodes it really plunges my mood.

Here’s the weirdest thing. In January he had two angry mornings in a row, nothing out of the ordinary, and on the second morning something just clicked inside me and I suddenly thought ‘I cant do this for the rest of my life’. My mood plunged and I entered a low depression from which I didn’t emerge for a couple of months and to be honest it is still bubbling under the surface and although I am carrying on with life as normal I am still quite emotional. This is very very unusual for me as I usually brush things off but it was like all the angry episodes over the 19 years we had been together just built up into one homogenous mass that has eaten away at me.

Whilst I have been thinking about an alternative future it has also given me feelings - unrelated to his anger issues - about whether I want to be with him for another 20+ years. It now just all feels like an awful long time. I have told him all this and we have had a couple of conversations about our future. The thing is since telling him how my feelings have changed for him he has kept an incredibly good check on his moods, not perfect but I am not saying I am either. But my low feelings and doubt about whether I can be with him for the rest of my life haven’t changed though and I find myself trawling the boards here trying to find some solution, researching divorce, researching people who have stayed together and not really knowing wtf to do.

It’s like I am in a quiet crisis, carrying on with day to day activities and life. We are abroad for the summer and he has gone back to the UK to work for a couple of weeks and I haven’t really yet missed him. This upsets me because like I said the 80% that was good meant we had fun together. We are lucky enough to have family to babysit and we can often go out. But the fact is I can’t seem to get over the build up of angry moods and a huge part of me feels the pull of freedom seems more and more attractive. I have emotionally checked out of the relationship and I don't know how to get back or if I want to. I can tell he knows this and he is trying his best but it isn’t making a difference at the moment. The thought however of tearing our family apart is also terrifying. I just don’t know what to do.

If you have got this far, well done! Any thoughts would be amazing.

Thing is, he has clearly reigned it in as he is worried you might dump him now. This shows it is not really issues, as such, more that he has been acting this way for two decades as he knows he can get away with it. Lets put it this way - he you were the one who was 6ft and he was 5’5, it’s certain his issues would mysteriously disappear.
The other thing is that as soon as he knows you have settled down again and thinks you are no longer contemplating ending the marriage over this, his ‘issues’ will start back up again. Deep down you probably know this.
He is a prize cunt for being like this with you but at least you have had a choice. He is an even bigger cunt for making the kids scared of his anger outbursts as they have had no choice. This will impact them in some way, 100 per cent.

Given his job you need to start getting some of this recorded to protect yourself now and in the future. You should talk with your GP about your low mood anyway so don't hold back in raising the abuse.

Have you read 'why does he do that' by lundy bancroft? It changed my life. My DH was not dissimilar to yours and it ramped up hugely when I was pregnant and then more after I had a c section and newborn. Reading how his behaviour is controllable and benefiting him was really powerful. I started to be less compliant with the rules he tried to lay down and called out his behaviour for what it is. Couples counselling was helpful for us because although DH knew what he was doing, i dont think he realised how wrong it was. I know that sounds weird but MIL is an engulfing narcissist who gets her way through manipulation, passive aggression and emotional outbursts. Things are better now but he knows I'll go if it doesn't stick. Improving my power in the situation helped. I went back to work early from mat leave and just applied for a big promotion at work.

I have had 9 years with a H who sounds much like yours. About 7-8 weeks ago after another horrendous rage, I too thought I can’t do this anymore.

On the suggestion of a number of MNs I read Lundy Bancroft’s ‘Why does he do that: Inside the minds of angry and controlling men’ and this has crystallised in my own mind my determination to leave. It’s a powerful and insightful book and it has given me the courage to keep determined to leave this horrendous situation every time I have doubts.

His rages are a CHOICE and a mechanism to control you by subduing and manipulating you. It is a form of domestic abuse.

My H is charming with those around him - professionally, in the community and with our wider family - and he has complete control of his emotions with those relationships. But has chosen not to control himself within the domestic environment.

I am biding my time quietly as we speak, I’ve seen a lawyer, am sorting and cleaning the house in readiness for an easier move, and organising a new home to move to in October, if not sooner.

I feel daunted - I’m 40, with 1 DC 21 months old and 24wks PG - but having left twice before with promises of things being better, and my experience of when I have returned - that the better times only lasts 4-8 weeks before the abuse resumes (once he believed I won’t leave him again), I know I am making a positive decision for the best future of myself and my DC.

I have had years of marriage counselling with my H however with the benefit of hindsight, I think that unless your H does a ‘men’s behaviour change’ program (like for example the Everyman Project) - and in most cases even having done these courses most men aren’t able to change - there is a real risk that in fact counselling can be a place for him to have his feelings validated and you further re-victimised. Given your H’s background in counselling, I fear he isn’t likely to be a great candidate for change.

I encourage you to read Lundy’s book and I wish you all the best whatever you decide.

His rages are a CHOICE and a mechanism to control you by subduing and manipulating you. It is a form of domestic abuse.

THIS.

The fact is, you have proof now he CAN control his moods. However, he choses to terrorize you and your children in the mornings. He gets a power thrill out of this behaviour.

You do not talk about how this is effecting your young children? I am guessing they are a witness to all this behaviour.

As a mental health practitioner, he knows how this home environment is effecting his children development and choosing of potential partner in future relationships.

You need to think about your children and how being raised in this home environment has impacted on THEM.

I am so sad for you OP. What a way you and your children have been living. He has kept a fine balance for you to believe his behaviour has been good enough for you to stay, despite the 20% being so truly awful.

Please follow other's advice who have been through similar.

And well done for reaching out and choosing to share what must be frightening to admit. You chose a wise place to do it. I wish you so much good luck.

It's not a perfect marriage he is a bully and he's intimidating all of you. You have reached the turning point and have checked out of the marriage.
You need to start getting your ducks in a row and think about your future alone with the DC.
Once you've reached the turning point it's generally over.

and yes I worry about the children seeing his behaviour.

They are not just seeing it. They are feeling it, absorbed it and internalising it. And as other have said it’s not just at the 20% outburst times it’s also the other 80% of their lives on high alert, tip toeing around and seeing and feeling your pain. Start another thread on here asking “was anyone brought up with an angry band volatile parent and how did it impact you”. Watching / hearing anger between parents is classed as domestic abuse of the child. They need to be taken out of this.

Thank you so much all of you for the responses, sorry I can't reply to all in turn this time as there have been so many. I do really appreciate it though.

@Poolbridge well done for having made the decision, it sounds like this is the best plan for you. Especially hard given that you're pregnant. Have you had good times in your marriage as well? The thing that upsets me is that a lot of our relationship has been good.

Like I said he has indeed controlled his anger outbursts since he realised I had had enough. I too worry about the kids feeling and absorbing and internalising his behaviour. I noticed the other week the eldest (7) sidled up to me when DH was getting annoyed about something. It was just a mild annoyance thing, the sort of thing that can happen with anyone, but I sensed that because DH has flown off the handle before DS was almost predicting this might happen. It didn't happen.

DH is back with us on Monday and then we have another two weeks abroad before going home. I have to admit I have spent a lot of time online researching divorce. He earns a lot more than me, I am self-employed and mainly work from home, and has a good pension etc whereas I have none. We do have 3 properties between us, one of which is in just my name the other are in his. I wouldn't want to be a total bitch about it and take what he has worked really hard for (I know I have worked hard too but I'm talking about what he had worked for in the years before we met) but obviously the DCs and I would have to have some support. I feel terrible even thinking like this because we DO have a very good relationship at many many times. But yes I feel that the years of bad moods have finally got to me and I have checked out. Whether I can check back in or not is another thing.

It makes it more complicated that we are having this period abroad from January during which we planned to sell our family home in the UK and move to a new town (returning to a new place and a new house after we spent a few months abroad with DH commuting regularly to the UK) but this will actually give us some space to work things out.

He doesn't want to split, he will take this badly it it happens. I also can't believe how bloody quickly 20 years together has gone. Time has seriously flown. Life is short.

Keep paying attention v close to your DCs emotions and behaviours. Their childhood is all that matters. If a grumpy 55 year old angry wanker takes the consequences of his unrelenting bad behaviour badly - so be it. He will get over it - these types always bounce back. But will your DCs sail into adulthood unscathed?

Keep all of your options open. Keep researching divorce. Don’t get too hung up on money - you can’t buy MH and emotional stability for your DCs.

Hi OP,
Yes, we have had good times as well - but I would say those good times have always been tainted by my resentment over previous rages and concern about upcoming ones.
My H can be a good man - kind, warm and helpful when he chooses - and he is a great father on the whole and very gentle with DD; when he’s not exploding or demeaning me in front of her. I’d say harmony in our household is 90% of the time. But I know, another performance is just around the corner - be it 2 days, a week, 3 weeks or a month.
My DD adores him and I feel sad and worried about the impact on her.
But for me, I can’t take anymore the negative impact it has on my emotional and physical wellbeing. I overeat in response and just feel broken and really low and down after incidents.
Lundy’s book explores the value system that feeds into why our partners feel permitted to rage / be angry towards us.
Because I have made up my mind this time, I am quietly going about the change as I don’t want him to pressure me into staying on false promises that things will be different; my experience is that it rarely lasts.
I feel so daunted but quietly optimistic and positive about a new life which involves among other things, and especially mental ease.

My brother and I had to tiptoe around our abusive dad. He wasn't all bad - he'd spend hours bored out of his brain whilst we played in the park. We were poor so he'd take us on the bus into woolwich and we'd cross the river on the ferry for 10p, have fish and chips then come home again. He did a little "party" for us once a month where he bought us sweets and chocolates and played games. He arranged "tournaments" for us where we played games to win little gifts and he made sure we won.

Sadly those fluffy childhood memories are completely overwritten by the fact that both my brother and I were terrified of our dad. He too found life frustrating and when he lost his temper it was awful - we lived in constant fear of triggering him off. It affected both of us - me by leaving home at 18 and jumping into an abusive relationship - my brother has built a wall around himself and has never had a relationship - not even a short fling - despite being in his late 40s now. As for my mum, our relationship is severely damaged because she failed to protect us; I see her once a year at most.

Please don't underestimate what this is doing to your children - they don't have 10 years of great memories and experiences behind them to pull them through the bad times. This is all they have ever known.

Best of luck OP, but just before you end up deciding to end the marriage abroad...

Be aware that if he decides to stay abroad, being abusive and the marriage ends while abroad it will be practically impossible to head back home with your children unless you are prepared a fortune in legal fees and years in court to take them away from their dad.

That’s very true @TanMateix.

As I am about to separate in the coming 1-2 months - in the UK - the advice I have received from my family lawyer is that I am unlikely to ever be able to return to my home country with DC. If I did try to, any legal application will cost > £30-40k and I will only have a 60:40% chance of success, looking st all my circumstances (inc I have no family in UK), and that is assuming I can restrict H’s contact with children down to 3 hours a fortnight going forward (which is unlikely he’d want or accept this, failing which I wouldn’t reduce to so little). A very good point.

I wonder why mornings are his trigger. Is he unhappy at work? Does he resent you working from home?

My Dad was like this OP. Most of the time he was a good and loving father. But the moments that stick out most in my memory are the moments when he loomed over us, intimidated and terrified us. If it didn't go his way no-one was allowed to be happy.

Its taken me a long time to work out that I deal with problems in the same way. Anger is my go to emotion and I take things out on the people around me. I'm getting better but I can't take back the spiteful things I've said in anger.

Nobody should be in your house scaring your children or making them walk on eggshells. It's a horrible way to live.

I know several expat wives that have been trapped in this situation for years despite having spent well over £50,000 on legal fees.

There is one who managed to get residence (custody) after years at court but just her violent ex gave the girl a good beating that resulted in broken bones. So he is no longer allowed to see the kid but, she still cannot take the kid with her back to her country. (Despite her husband always seeing in court she should be deported because she was here with a spouse visa of a marriage that had ended.

One thing I learned is that once there is a court process in place about the kid, it is practically impossible to get the child out, but if a parent decides to take them abroad and keep them there before there is a court process in place, there is absolutely nothing you can do to get those kids back.

I wonder why mornings are his trigger. Is he unhappy at work? Does he resent you working from home?

I agree. This is a really interesting question.

Because he hasn't had any significant anger outbursts it is now ME who is the bad person thinking negative thoughts about the marriage.
Don’t feel this for an instant. An event like a car crash can take years to get over - many many thousand times as long as the event. You have had 19 years of this and feel bad you aren’t over it in a couple months, can you see how ridiculous that is?

Please don't inflict this on your children. I grew up with a screaming dad. My mum's argument was 'He doesn't hit us so it's fine.' I'm 55 and its still not fine. It profoundly affects children to grow up terrified of what will trigger random, unfathomable anger.

He must get help. It's not OK to just try his best for a while. He needs to sort this. Many antidepressants will help curb fury like this. Citalopram certainly does.

Not scientific, but I read once that love is like a pool of water that drops fall into or drip out of. And you don't know that you've run out until the last drop has gone. You've run out. He needs to do some serious replenishing before you begin to feel love for him again.

And he needs to be proactive not reactive, He needs to want to stop inflicting this on you and to stop minimising its effect.

OP in the divorce section of MN there’s a threat running called is it selfish to leave a good man. ( or something similar). I thought of you as you seem to think it was 80% good and 20% bad ( it wasn’t, it was way worse, with the emotional damage & internal fear of those crazy rages that you probably didn’t even know was going on inside you and the DC).

@Freetodowhatiwant you asked ne what finally made me leave him. That is a good question. I think I had a January morning like yours. There was an outburst over something absolutely ridiculous like me having put something deemed inapporpriate in a 40 degree wash cycle (yes really ) and I just suddenly thought ... nope. I cannot spend the rest of my life like this. It then took me about 2 or 3 years to work, very privately, through the practical planning and the abject (but misplaced) guilt at breaking up our family.
And then I told him.
Let me tell you, for 2 months after that, I felt the most enormous sense of freedom and relief. Things got tricky when we told the children but they are doing ok now and we are actually on a holiday all together at the moment (for their sake) and it is .... ok. Not my idea of a perfect holiday but neeeds must and this is my deal with myself for being 'selfish' and choosing freedom for me....

Thank you so much for all the new replies. I am reading every one and taking note. Especially the ones from the POV of children now grown up who lived with something similar and are affected.

Re the mornings, I have no idea why it has most often been the mornings. I haven't always been self employed and at times have had to get up and go to work the same as he has. I think those times were even worse as we both needed to get up and ready. Avoiding him in the morning was probably a better option! I say 'was' as like I said he has made a tremendous effort to be more even tempered and yes what @timeisnotaline says I would like to agree with - the years of anger previously have been the build up.

@youwantshoes DH is likely to have a go at me about things in the washing machine too. Whoever I do anything in the house he goes along and re-does it.

@Luckybe40 I think I have found that thread in my late night obsessions with reading about this stuff.

He's back in our holiday place now (having been in the UK for 12 days) and things are okay but we are not really bonding. I tends to sleep in the kids room at night as otherwise they wake me up wanting me to come in and obviously with two small children we are busy and balancing a bit of work with taking them to the beach and pool etc.

The abroad thing is probably more of a concern for him than me. We have a holiday home in a place where I grew up and when we are here my family is here. The plan is from January to spend a few months here, take the kids out of school and tutor, and he commutes back to the UK for alternate weeks. But a year from now we are all supposed to be moving back to the UK but to a different town and area (one we both used to live in so both know well but our lives there were pre-kids so in some ways would be starting again with child-age-friends/schools etc). I imagine if we get to the separating stage the being abroad thing might cause some difficulty but it will be him wanting to make sure we all go back to the UK. He does like it here too but it's more my home than his. Very easy European country for ex-pats to live in.

Anyway so at the moment I am just watching and waiting and seeing how I feel about him. He missed me but I didn't really miss him. I look at him and appreciate he still looks attractive but can't work out my feelings for him so am going to bide my time and assess the situation.

Obviously there are & have been a lot of good times, or you wouldn’t have stayed! It’s how abuse works.

I honestly don’t think it’s fair on your children to stay. Already your 7 year old is sending his father may have an outburst and is seeking your protection - it’s not on for your children to grow up in this environment. They’re ‘seeing/hearing/absorbing’ SO much more than you realise. Do you want your DS to be like your DH & your DD to be in a relationship where she’s (at best) working out the good/bad ratio?! Do you think this is what your parents want for you?!

Yes, they’ll be upset if you separate, but kids are upset at lots of things we do for their own good and don’t appreciate it until they’re much older!!

There are many threads in MN by posters who have grown up as your kids are and they all blame both parents and wish their ‘better oarent’ Had left and taken them away from the abuse! I’ve yet to ever read a post from someone grateful their parents stayed together!

It’s even worse because he KNOWS the damage he’s doing to you and his children. Given his job he can’t claim he doesn’t!!

I really think you need to forget the counselling as a couple, he’s too manipulative for it to work. Instead put your energy into seeing a SHS and planning your future - lining your ducks up

Yes it’s sad because you live him and you enjoy ‘the good bits’ but you know in your heart that you’re fine with living like this.

Prioritise yourself and your DC your H will be upset, but he’ll be fine in time...if you stay, you and your children will not.

Take care 🌷

Sorry about all the iPhone ‘corrections’ bloody thing is driving me nuts!!!

Would you like to live in your ‘holiday home’ permanently?

Consider what you want & how best to get it before you apply for a divorce (assuming you gather the strength to do that)

"Anger issues", eh.
Does he ever get uncontrollably angry with anyone other than you?
No?
Then it's not an anger problem, it's abuse.

LTB. Even if he does change (he won't, based on what you've told us about him) the fact is that you don't feel the same about him any more. Understandably.