WWYD DH touching me when I'm asleep

[cpjoli]

This morning I woke up to my DH touching me intimately. It's not the first time. I just laid there until he rolled over. No sex happened. I got up as I couldn't settle. I have a history of being abused and being attacked which he knows about.
I'm really upset by it.
WWYD?

Yes but touching me intimately to me is not the same as

Plenty of people are woken in the morning by a spooning husband who doing a bit of a rubbing action up against you - not abuse.

because surely most men would stop if their wife did not respond. This to be is normal but taking it further into intimate touching without any response isnt and I would not be pleased. One is testing the waters to see a response (and remaining asleep is a response) the other is going to far. Sex always starts with one person doing something or saying something - spooning and rubbing is one such way. Consent does not have to be said but given with actions - either reciprocating or saying no. Here it went further than the initial testing of the water. He wasnt making an advance he was crossing over

A hand up a skirt whilst awake - well its all very teenager but it is easy to bat away and not give consent to.

But the other key is this - normal relationships allow for saying no, for stopping. If your husband turned you down - you would stop you would not continue?

I still think the biggest issue you have had from the start is misreading the situation as being the same as yours where there is enough in the post to read that it isnt. That and the fact that you think it easy for her just to leave.

I'm going to sound old fashion but my husband and I touch each other during the night. Sometimes it ends in sex sometimes it doesn't . I have touch my husband intimately many times in the last 30 years during the night and he never thought I was an abuser or a pervert. I thought it was ok but maybe I'm wrong.

@GCAcademic

Rolling my eyes.

@DBML it's astounding that in this day and age, post #metoo, people still hold views like yours but here we are.

It is never acceptable to assume consent based on your previous activities. If I consent to sex once it doesn't mean the other person is entitled to assume I've consented to all future occasions.

It is particularly unacceptable to assume consent with a person on the basis of what a previous partner agreed to. What does one person's consent have to do with another's?

Only that assuming consent may not be a malicious act and that they may need explicitly telling. Therefore it’s not abuse.

Engaging in sexual activity without the other person's consent is abuse. This isn't a negotiable point - it's the absolute foundation of sexual autonomy.

If john and sally are intimate with each other with assumed consent and happily so, John may go into future relationships thinking that a husbands touch will be a welcome one. Likewise Sally may think her new partners will appreciate her wandering hands.

John and Sally are not entitled to assume that because their previous partners have consented to something, all of their future partners have as well.

It doesn’t make it OK. But does it make them abusers?

Yes. It makes them abusers.

Now, if John and Sally get a telling off for their unwelcome randiness and continue - then yes, their intentions become malicious.

Intention is completely irrelevant. If a man rapes me, it doesn't matter whether he thought I would enjoy it. It is still rape. The principe is the same regardless of the act.

But if they say ‘oh gosh, I’m sorry, I didn’t realise, I’m embarrassed, I must have been asleep, it won’t happen again’...really, do they deserve that label?

Yes. Apologising for abusing someone doesn't negate the fact that the abuse happened.

So at the start of this thread people like my self tried to establish whether the op husband knew the effect his touching would have on her. Our advice changes accordingly.

He didn't know the effect his touching would have on her because he didn't ask. This is why consent is so important. You're essentially suggesting it's absolutely fine to trample over someone's boundaries as long as you didn't know what those boundaries were and then apologise for your actions afterwards, when actually it's completely essential that anyone planning on engaging in sexual activity asks in advance if the other person consents to it.

@Quartz2208

Just as you say I’ve made assumptions, you have too. You’ve made assumptions the op husband was explicitly told not to touch her. You assumed he’s made a connection between her previous abuse and his own actions and ignored it. You’ve made assumptions he didn’t stop doing something he knew she didn’t like. At post 1, we knew none of these things.

I’ve used my own relationship not as a guide to how it should be...but as an example of how some people think. How some people assume consent without that being malicious in nature. I’ve never said that was Ok, but that some people won’t realise they are upsetting you. They do need telling.

I go back to what is wrong with my advice?

1. Tell him how you feel explicitly
2. Move beds if he really is doing it in sleep
3. See what happens and go from there

Please explain to me what is wrong with that advice in this situation?

@Vasya

So, should all husbands/wives explicitly ask when they want sex? Perhaps a signed document would help?

Should we keep our hands off each other until we’ve asked? A bit of a passion killer, but I wouldn’t want to offend you.

At what point do we hand ourselves in, because clearly my husband and I are a pair of abusers (but only to each other).

I would feel totally violated if my husband touched me intimately if I was asleep, consent is given much earlier than that and if he was spooning/cuddling me and I didn't respond he would never take that further. I hate that I'm allegedly in an abnormal relationship because I want to say yes/give positive signals before I engage in sexual activity, being married doesn't give him automatic rights to my body and he loves and respects me enough to know that.

OP, I hope you are OK as you can be and can have some time to gather your thought and think about what you can do. I agree you should have an honest conversation with your H as it's clear there are stark differences in acceptable boundaries.

@DBML you are absolutely correct in every way.

@DBML

Please quote me where I have said I agreed with that

Ok I will. Lisa said

all you weman need to know that a marrage is a two way thing the sooner you understand that the better

he is your husband are you insecure about your body so what let you husband have a play it’s called marriage

You replied:

Lisa I tried to say that earlier and got called a rape apologist.

So, should all husbands/wives explicitly ask when they want sex? Perhaps a signed document would help?

This is a pretty common straw man put forward by rape apologists. That's the company you're keeping when you make statements like this.

Couples can and should determine for themselves what works for them in terms of ensuring consent. For me, I like that my husband asks me every time. I like the security it gives me, and it makes me feel respected. For other couples, it might work differently; they might be happy for one person to start kissing or touching, and then for the other to reciprocate or tell them no. You decide your own boundaries.

But crucially, you decide them before you start. You don't decide that the other person is going to be absolutely fine with you bursting in on them in the shower, or being groped in their sleep, or being pinned to the sofa by the arms. You discuss in advance what consent looks like for you. You don't trample over someone's boundaries and then apologise for what you did.

OP's husband didn't have consent. He didn't ask her if she would be happy to be touched in her sleep. He didn't ask the question. He had no way of knowing if she would be happy with him touching her or not. That is abuse.

Should we keep our hands off each other until we’ve asked? A bit of a passion killer, but I wouldn’t want to offend you.

I don't care what boundaries you and your husband have with each other. You obviously have an arrangement that suits you both. That's great.

But say you and your husband broke up and he and I started seeing each other. Is he entitled to assume that I'm happy to be touched in my sleep because you were?

Of course not. He would have to ask me first if that's something I would be ok with. If he didn't, it would be abuse.

At what point do we hand ourselves in, because clearly my husband and I are a pair of abusers (but only to each other).

This is very obviously something I haven't said. What you're really struggling to understand is that just because you and your husband have an arrangement you're both happy with, it doesn't mean everyone else in the world is entitled to assume their partners would also be happy with that arrangement. Just because you don't mind being touched in your sleep doesn't mean OP's husband was entitled to assume OP didn't mind it.

Look at it this way - John and Sally have an understanding whereby he sometimes inserts a finger into Sally's anus while they're having sex. Sally enjoys this and never tells John no.

If Sally and John break up and you and John subsequently get together, is John entitled to assume that you consent to him doing the same thing to you? Is it acceptable for him to do it then apologise when you're upset?

Of course not! John has to ask first if you want to do it. He needs your consent.

He is not an abuser in the eyes of the law at this point

This, by the way, is not true. In the eyes of the law, the actions of OP's husband explicitly constitute abuse.

@Coffeeandcherrypie

You’re missing out quite a lot of the post there and picking out only a few bits, then sticking my response on the end. You are also disregarding every other post I’ve written. That’s quite manipulative of you.

@DBML

Why don’t you quote the posts in full then?

I did my best considering Lisa’s post was deleted for being offensive (and you agreed with it ALL)

I did go back to look for it. As you said, it’s been deleted. Therefore to see my actual opinion, perhaps read my posts again?

Why are you so afraid to repost what you said @DMBL?

@Vasya

I’m just going to say this one more time, as I’m going around in circles.

I never said assuming was ok.

I said that it can be without malicious intent.

If you started dating my husband, he might be shocked at how different the relationship boundaries are and may make a few mistakes before settling into a routine with you.

Is this not forgivable? Would you not just tell him what you don’t want and see how he adjusted? Or would you scream abuser and leave him at the first instance?

I’m not coffee. I just don’t have that info at hand 🙄 it’s gone.

But...you could get the gist of my thinking by just reading back over my posts could you not?

So, here’s my original post...

DBML

Hi Op

I understand your DH knows about your past abuse, but have you explicitly told him that what he’s doing makes you uncomfortable? He may not make the connection. He may think as you’re married and I assume sexually involved, you’ve consented to intimacy with him.

You see, my husband touches me during sleep. Sometimes I sense he’s awake and horny, sometimes he’s still snoring. Either way, I like it. I like the intimacy and I often will allow it to lead to more. Sometimes I fondle him during the night, I don’t ask for his permission first, and I’d never have seen myself as ‘abusing him’.

So, firstly if you haven’t already, I’d explain that it makes you uncomfortable due to your history. See whether this makes a difference.

If he really is doing it whilst asleep, if you love him and he’s decent in all other ways, could you consider separate beds?

If he ignores you and does it regardless, then yes, I agree you have a respect problem.

It really does depend on whether he knows it upsets you and whether he then stops.

I wouldn’t just label it abuse. It’s how some couples roll.

No, I meant your response to Lisa. You said I misquoted you do I said why don’t you quote your interaction with her if I git it wrong? But you don’t. And her post has been quoted so you still have access

So, you aren’t happy that my opinion is shown in my previous posts and think my true feelings lie in one deleted post?

Rolling my eyes.

Of course you are. Because you can’t understand anything beyond your own experience. Thanks for proving my point.

And likewise neither it seems can you GCAcademic.

@DBML

Please quote me where I have said I agreed with that

Ok I will. Lisa said

all you weman need to know that a marrage is a two way thing the sooner you understand that the better

he is your husband are you insecure about your body so what let you husband have a play it’s called marriage

You replied:

Lisa I tried to say that earlier and got called a rape apologist. So, if it’s that bad, she just leave. Being on your own is better than submitting to repeated sexual abuse, if that’s what op thinks it is.

Are you satisfied, @DMBL ?

@coffee

You’ve just ignored my point and reposted the same thing. Why?
Why agave you not read MY posts?

Out of curiosity, what was so wrong about the advice I gave OP?