WWYD DH touching me when I'm asleep

[cpjoli]

This morning I woke up to my DH touching me intimately. It's not the first time. I just laid there until he rolled over. No sex happened. I got up as I couldn't settle. I have a history of being abused and being attacked which he knows about.
I'm really upset by it.
WWYD?

Actually he has committed sexual assault (although it would be difficult to prove) as it is anything that does not have explicit consent - OP clearly states she has never given it and neither would it be given!

There is not implied consent at all in the eyes of the law (neither should there be) because everybody is different and people boundaries are as well. FFS the OP clearly states hers in her first OP that her partner knows about. The fact that some relationships allow for implied consent is personal to them. It isnt and neither should it ever be

I think its the use of the word abuser that is confusing things here. Being abusive is not the same as committing a sexual assault (which he has done)

No wonder we are seeing such low rape convictions on here if this is the idea of consent and how sexual assault works is the one that we are taking into society

Lisa all you weman need to know that a marrage is a two way thing the sooner you understand that the better.
That's a contraction to the tone of your post.

he is your husband are you insecure about your body so what let you husband have a play it called marrage
No words.

OP well done for standing your ground. I really hope everything works out for you.

Having lived though this, the only thing I can say is get out now before it gets worse.

As the DP of NOTWG, I'm appalled at the responses in relation to OP's partner's behaviour. Firstly, have you ever outlined to him what is acceptable in your relationship while in bed ?! In my opinion, he is neither 'abusing' you or 'attacking' you. He is your husband, not the person who did what they did to you ! Are you ever intimate with each other &, if you are, are there ground rules set out beforehand in terms of the 'do's & dont's' ?!?! When all's said & done, if accommodation permits, sleep in 'the spare room.' That way, you won't be 'attacked' or 'abused' by your husband who would only appear to be looking to be intimate with you !! Yes I am qualified in my opinions because of my job and dealing with situations of real abuse on a daily basis

Likewise, we're both out !!

Communication is the key to any relationship and expecting someone to read your mind when they've never experienced abuse is going to cause problems. OP if you don't trust your DH or think he's going to abuse you then leave him. Bottom line is that your DH has not attacked/abused you based on what you've told us

First time it happened I’d tell him never again. Second time I’d punch time, there wouldn’t be a third.

there is a level of implied consent by the very action of sharing a bed and having an ongoing sexual relationship with a partner

No there isn't. There is no implied consent for a partner to do whatever the hell they like to you while you are asleep.

you weman need to know that a marrage is a two way thing the sooner you understand that the better.
"You women need to understand"???
1940s are calling you back!

he is your husband are you insecure about your body so what let you husband have a play it called marrage
Have a play?
While she is asleep?
She isn't a fucking blow up doll just for his amusement. Christ just when you.think.you have heard it all on here.

Willow2017,
Yes some of the comments are ridiculous I agree with you .
He should invest in one of those life like blow up dolls that come from America and are about £10,000 .There was a Tv show on about a year ago and you wouldn’t believe how many of these creepy dolls they sell .
Then he wouldn’t need to abuse his wife when she was sleeping, as he could go and touch the doll up .

North your appalled that touching someone even your wife needs consent because they are a person and not an object. The only ones bandying the words abuse and attacked are those who seem to think being married gives you rights over the other persons body and that it should be on the person to say no rather than a yes

You are right communication is key but she clearly has communicated touching her without her being awake to give consent is not on because it triggers memories (clearly you are fortunate to have never experienced anything horrific enough to give you triggers). As her husband he should love her and respect her enough to understand it not about him but what unexpected touching can bring

Clearly he does not and puts sex ahead of her feelings and needs and overrules her clear boundaries for his selfish pleasure. So what would you call that

I do wonder what qualifications you have norths dp to not recognise this is because of what it triggers from being attacked and how on earth you can properly deal with victims and the psychological fallout from it to so miss the point

Some of the responses on this thread are incredibly disturbing.

Perhaps those posters missed the bit where the op said he lied and pretended to have been asleep.

DBML your posts actually make me feel fucking sick.

@Sprouts

I’m entitled to my opinion and couldn’t care less what you feel about my posts.

Dbml say you were petrified of spiders and your partner decided whilst you were sleeping to put a spider on you. Would you say that was ok

Quartz

If I touch my partner in an intimate way, then ‘usually’ in a happy marriage it shows desire; love; interest; intimacy. One can possibly not realise that their actions have negative connotations for the other, unless it’s been explained otherwise to them. I am not a mind reader so suggested to op ‘could this be it? Rather than abusive behaviour’.

Dropping a spider on someone is a malicious action with intent to scare for one’s own amusement.

These cannot be compared.
But you go on thinking what you think.

From the start I have never said his actions we’re acceptable or that op had to accept them.
I’ve never said that she should lie back and think of England.
I merely said that perhaps like millions of other people, he thinks it’s ok and a bit sexy - and to avoid it going forward she needs to tell him otherwise and possibly sleep in a different bed.
If you read through my responses again, you’ll see that. I have never told her to get over it and let him do his thing. So why my suggestion is so sickening to people I’ll never understand.

I’m not suggesting op should be like my husband and I...I’m saying perhaps her partner is already and didn’t realise he had to be different in this relationship.
I also stated that IF he DID already know, that “you have a problem”. But I was giving the guy the benefit of the doubt, having around 6 lines of a post to go by.

So, again, I don’t think there is anything wrong with my advice and feel it is common sense for anyone else reading and wondering about their husbands actions.

Since then OP has come back to complain that he knows, she didn’t consent etc etc ... so clearly she believes he’s that bad. However she’s going to stay. Why though would you decide to stay with someone that bad, who you feel is sexually abusing you. So my advice changes. I say if you are certain he did this maliciously and purposely and went against a previous conversation telling him not to touch you in sleep, then report him to the police and get him to leave. You can’t love someone who’s abusing you and they certainly don’t love you.

If that is the case.

@NorthOfTheWatfordGap

As the DP of NOTWG, I'm appalled

This meme was made for you, DP of NOTWG

@DBML you actively agreed with the poster saying ‘let him have a play’. Your mask has well and truly slipped.

@coffeeandcherrypie

Please quote me where I have said I agreed with that. I can quote you numerous times on my posts where I have said:

1. Tell him you don’t like it
2. You don’t have to accept it
3. Sleep in a different bed

The only difference between our views is that you want the guy labelled as an abuser without any evidence. It must be sad thinking that way. Wanting everything to be sinister. I feel sorry that you think like that.

DBML are you deliberately not seeing it the first post says

I have a history of being abused and being attacked which he knows about.

Which means for her (and she clarified) being unexpectedly touched triggers memories for her - the spider analogy was trying to get you to see that for HER being touched and definitely being touched without being asked triggers her in the same way that dropping a spider onto someone who doesnt like it. He knows this and its something that if he is in a relationship with her he has to accept. The fact that he doesnt and touched her was an action as you said it for one’s own amusement. his.

What you dont see though is that everything you suggest involves what she needs to do. Why? She has explained her history to him, he knows it and he continues to ignore it? Also the fact that you seem to think its ok for it to be done and then for her to say she doesnt like it rather than agreed in the first instance. And legally every day of the week consent needs to be EXPLICIT. It cannot be implied. EVER. A positive affirmation is needed. 99.9% of the time of course if doesnt matter it only comes into play when someone objects. But yes the onus is on the person to get consent not the person to say NO. I hope if you have sons you are clearly explaining that to them. Not saying its ok and wait to see what happens afterwards.

I wonder if all of this is because its hit a nerve about your behaviour and your actions towards your husband and whether he really does want all the advances. Because on paper your situation is completely different

Quartz

From personal experience and I’m not going into it here.

My husband would be exempt from the no touch rules. I sleep with him and if I didn’t want his attention I’d bat off his advances. My point is NOT that this is ok, but that some people DO assume because they’re your partner it is ok. I’m not deliberately missing your point but saying perhaps OPs thought HIS advances were acceptable and didn’t realise HE could be a trigger. So he might need this explained explicitly. I’m not even saying assuming is OK...I’m saying many people would assume innocently, making their actions not malicious in nature. They just need to be told otherwise that they too, need to ask first.

Is this not a possibility?

As far as I’m concerned the ONLy thing op needed to do was say...

“DH, you cannot touch me in my sleep. It triggers some awful feelings in me and I don’t like it. Please wait until I am awake to make advances. If you can’t do this, or feel you’ll do it anyway in your sleep, I suggest you move to the spare room/sofa. If you don’t respect my boundaries, this relationship may well be over.”

End of. That’s hardly going out of her way. Her DH explicitly knows and in future he will either be a decent husband respecting her boundary or will show himself to be the sex lest you all think he is. Either way, it’s fair and clear is it not?

I have told every partner I've slept with that I am grumpy on waking, and this includes being woken by being touched intimately or any other kind of sexual advance, therefore this is a boundary for me that they mustn't cross.

I do this at the beginning of a relationship, and expect them to honour that boundary for the entirety of that relationship, no matter how much they might fancy and love me (or I them).

It doesn't matter what they do in other relationships, or what other people might do in their relationships. It matters ONLY what we do in our relationship.

Likewise with the OP, but with far better reasons than me. For her it is far worse to be treated in such a manner.

I would question anyone who was unable to stick to boundaries like these and would suspect they would be hard of understanding in other areas too.

No nerve hit, I just asked my husband does he ever feel uncomfortable with my advances (on your behalf) and he laughed his head off. But he has now formally given consent you’ll be pleased to hear. His words ‘you can touch me up whenever you like’ followed by a suggestive wink, so I think he’s ok with it.

It would be completely weird in most relationships if consent had to be given every time someone felt a bit randy. Plenty of people are woken in the morning by a spooning husband who doing a bit of a rubbing action up against you - not abuse. Or a cheeky hand up the skirt at a party. From a long term partner many people would deem this completely acceptable/normal.

He may think as you’re married and I assume sexually involved, you’ve consented to intimacy with him.

Sorry but this is bollocks - consent isn't something you assume, it's something you ask for. The onus is on OP's husband to say 'how do you feel about me touching you in your sleep?', not just assume that because she hasn't explicitly forbidden it, it's ok.

On what possible interpretation is it ok to suggest that a man has the right to do whatever he likes to his wife's body unless she's explicitly forbidden it in the past? This kind of thinking is part of rape culture.

OP, I'm so sorry you've been through this - you should be able to trust your husband not to molest you, and the fact that he knows you were abused and is now denying responsibility makes it so much worse.

You don't have to put up with this - you don't have to stay in this relationship.

@shodan

A very good idea to have that conversation. And what most normal people were suggesting to Op/ asking if she’d done.

If you didn’t explicitly explain this to your partners, would you accuse them of abuse if they did wake you in this way?

@Vasya

Very few people are saying it’s OK. Only that assuming consent may not be a malicious act and that they may need explicitly telling. Therefore it’s not abuse.

If john and sally are intimate with each other with assumed consent and happily so, John may go into future relationships thinking that a husbands touch will be a welcome one. Likewise Sally may think her new partners will appreciate her wandering hands.
It doesn’t make it OK. But does it make them abusers?

Now, if John and Sally get a telling off for their unwelcome randiness and continue - then yes, their intentions become malicious.

But if they say ‘oh gosh, I’m sorry, I didn’t realise, I’m embarrassed, I must have been asleep, it won’t happen again’...really, do they deserve that label?

So at the start of this thread people like my self tried to establish whether the op husband knew the effect his touching would have on her. Our advice changes accordingly.

Well done, DMBL, for stomping all over this thread and making it all about you. And for thoroughly lacking any sort of understanding that some people have different boundaries to you, or that an previously-assaulted woman might feel differently about being groped in her sleep to your husband.