Expectations of men as a modern woman dating...is this unreasonable?

[Turtleneckjumpers]

I'm single. I have a decent job which allowed me to buy a house in my late twenties (by no means a mansion, worth circa 220 in 2015).

I care about a nice home and want to see a bit of the world. I'm not materialistic in the sense of buying designer clothes etc (I'm a Primark person mostly!). But money bothers me. It is important to me because it is a safety net in many ways. So I work hard and hope to always be able to support myself.

Here's the question. I date. So many men have either not bought a house (I do understand this isn't easy, but by age 38 I question this!!) or in an average job earning less than I am - significantly.

I've met a lovely man, 38, good fun. But in a recent conversation he voluntarily disclosed what he earns (45k) and said he has a good bonus and car and he's happy with that. I didn't say this but i was thinking really?! Are you just going to think ok I'm happy with that?!

I've been thinking about how awful this probably makes me and how it is probably why i have been single for a few years now. Also people into their jobs are often (not always i know) not the best partners. But i can't help being bothered by this. I want someone who wants to provide and is ambitious. Am I attracted to the wrong things here or is this reasonable?

Shanters that’s fine if that’s what a couple want to do.

The point was that I want to look after my children. Men in highly paid jobs are typically ok with that. Again I speak only from my experience with those I spend time with.

Again with the huge (sexist) assumptions!!!

It’s not an assumption. I’ve talked about this with colleagues. And from my experience that is the factual position.

Men in highly paid jobs are typically ok with that

I highly doubt that's true. But if it is, great! You'll have no trouble finding such a man to fund your lack of ambition then, will you? Would make a lot more sense than repeatedly whining about a man you barely know.

Although bernes are you able to comment?

Remember you’ve made it clear I’m mixing in the top 10% of pay bracket. Maybe I’m best placed to answer those questions about highly paid men?

Okay OP - let's assume you meet a man with pots of money, huge ambition, you date and you really like him. The time comes to talk children. He says he wants two but wants to be a stay at home dad.

Presumably you would choose to end the relationship and start trying to find another guy who wanted to leave the child rearing wholly to you?

Again with the huge (sexist) assumptions!!!

A certain type of man would gleefully point to the comments by the poster and a few others here as proof that women see men as nothing as more than a living, breathing pay packet. How very 1950s.

I'm struggling to understand your issue. This man sounds happy ,solvent and has a good job, but you have issues with the fact he hasn't bought a house? Why is that your business? And why is it an issue?

True iced very true.

I don’t accept that everyone can't earn that if they want to.

Think we are all banging our heads against a rather stubborn brick wall here.

If you are in the medical field, OP, then don't you meet members of the public. Don't you ever get a feel of how different we all are.

Qualifications don't come in to it. I have a degree, and post grad qualifications and 30yrs + experience and am generally known for being very good at my job. I've been in management roles for many, many years. I can't get to £45k in my role.
dh scored the highest mark, getting his first class degree in one of the Sciences. Went on and did his PhD. Then post docs etc. It is only in the last couple of years he has hit £45k.

What you are paid, depends on the luck of you being interested in a field that has jobs that pay well. Nothing to do with the worthiness of your job. Not directly to do with what qualifications you have. Nor is there a correlation between 'works hard' and 'earns well'.

However, don't let facts get in the way of you continuing to argue with 95% of other posters.

But iced she's a modern woman. It says so in her thread title.

But iced she's a modern woman. It says so in her thread title.

I'm guessing she's about as modern as it suits her to be in any given situation.

Because by staying at home in that situation you’re looking after that man’s children.
Even with the cost of childcare, it would still leave a high earner with more money than leaving a job of £45k. On that basis alone childcare and working is cheaper than one person leaving the workplace. For someone who is ambitious and obsessed with money and promotion to the point of judging men who don't want to earn more than £45k, it would surely be a no brainer to keep their hand in, keep their networks, keep their pay and progression opportunities?

Then factor in multiple holidays a year (expected by the person who wishes to stay home for a few years as part of their definition of comfortable).

Then add in the cost of private school fees for one or more child (also part of the definition of being kept in a comfortable lifestyle).

And all this is expected to be provided on a plate by the person who has already decided they'll be staying at home a few years (I think til school age was mentioned but I might have got posters confused).

Finally, it is the couple's children. The person isn't graciously staying home to look after the man's child any more than they are noble when they speak about how they have worked so hard and are ambitious but would 'sacrifice' their career for the good of their husband with a big important job and the family.

Talk it up however you like, this is someone seeking a very comfortable, affluent lifestyle and someone to fund it (hence the criteria about money and promotion and judgement of men who don't live to work), but the whole coming out of work thing is being talked about as if it's some benevolent decision for the greater good when it's really "I want to stay home".

As I say, there is nothing wrong in people choosing to be SAHP and doing what suits their family, adjusting finances etc accordingly. There's quite a lot wrong with seeking a partner who you can feel happy will give you the right lifestyle you want (far above average and bordering on entitled) because you want to give up work and the judging anyone who wouldn't be able to offer it on a plate.

A factual position from a very small sample.
I am able to comment both from a personal point of view and also from a professional perspective too.
So yes, I stand by the fact you are making lots of assumptions which could be considered outdated and sexist.

Some highly paid men may seek that type of arrangement but not all. You also find highly paid women who would like their partner to be the primary carer and then there's everything in between.

Even with the cost of childcare, it would still leave a high earner with more money than leaving a job of £45k.

Recall that our dear poster has only just become aware that there are folks out there - other than those in 'hairdressing and waitressing type jobs' - who earn less than £45k a year. She probably thought she'd have to pay her nanny at least that amount. But now presumably, thanks to us, she knows better?

There's quite a lot wrong with seeking a partner who you can feel happy will give you the right lifestyle you want (far above average and bordering on entitled) because you want to give up work and the judging anyone who wouldn't be able to offer it on a plate.

I agree. I don't think that the problem is necessarily that you want the kind of set up you are talking about (although it is quite old fashioned at best and goldiggerish at worst, it's your life and you are entitled to pursue what will make you happy), it's that you don't seem to understand or accept that this is way out of most people's reach and some people wouldn't even want to strive for it at all because they have different priorities.

I think it would be fine to say 'met a nice man but he didn't have the drive that I find attractive' but not 'its weird that he doesn't want to earn more money, there must be something wrong with him'.

feministwithtitsin
I agree.
To still be claiming there is something odd or strange about not seeking promotion above £45k at 38 after 28pages is bizarre.

Another totally reasonable approach would be: I've worked really hard and would like to meet someone at a similar place and stage as me. Once we've clicked and made the decision that we want children, I'd love the opportunity to stay home for a few years but understand that things would be tighter for a few years (because we'd only have one above average but not massively high income).

Not, he needs to earn at least the same as me and be ambitious and want promotions because I want to stay home for an indefinite period time and whilst I'm off here are my expectations of what his salary should be covering, including multiple holidays a year and private school fees. I honestly can't understand why anyone would be stuck on £45k

This is a very interesting thread. I used to love this guy and we were serious about each other. He was earning 3 times as much as me -intelligent guy although didnt finish high school ( i didnt care) but really good at his job and very money focused. One day just out od the blue we were talking about how we see our lifes in the future ( plans,dreams,general chat) and he said he was not sure if him and I had a future together - I was like-what???His response was that I didnt earn enough and didnt care about money enough and I dont seem to be ambitious enough towards earning more( for context I am a teacher,speak four languages,I excel at my job even though dont earn as much as him,I have my own flat and Im really happy with my life).He further explained that he worries if we ever lived together and he lost his job I would not be able to pay bills for us both or support him,he wanted an equal partner - financially too. It hurt me massively and I still have his words in my head, thought we had a future together.But we ended up splitting up.He made me feel shit despite me working hard to achieve what I have - though it was not much or enough in his eyes. He was just being honest :(

@LolaSmiles, I agree.

Also, if the OP has been mingling with high earning men that wish the same kind of future as the OP, why is she struggling to find a suitable partner?

I don't mean to be cruel, but if you are 33, I think you need to seriously reevaluate your priorities, especially if you want multiple children, it may be harder than you think.

Your original question was, am I a terrible person for being put off by a guy who earns 45k and is happy with that.

Fair question.

You have now learned that the vast, vast majority of people earn less than 45k a year.

Added to that, we have clarified that you want a lifestyle that includes:

1. more than one child (I assume this from your language throughout the thread, using the plural to describe your hypothetical children) - let's say two kids.
2. two international holidays a year for a family of 4.
3. Private education for 2 children.
4. A "nice" house.
5. The ability to maintain all these items "comfortably" for a period of let's say 5-7 years on one income, while you are at home.

So you hypothetical future partner's income would need to be 100-200k a year, I'd say.

This means you are looking for a man who is in the top 1-2% of earners in the UK - that is, a wealthy man. (You still haven't come up with a different statistic to define wealth have you?)

You've also learned that you're squeamish about the word "wealth". So, let's use your preferred word, "comfortable", to ensure that your feelings aren't hurt.

This means that the man you were on a date with is definitely not, ahem, "comfortable" enough for you.

The question remains, should you feel bad about the fact he's not for you? You seem to have turned yourself around now, no longer wondering about this, so that is nice for you.

One other thing that perhaps you could learn on this thread, is that it's not just folk who have NO opportunities who aren't able to make 100-200k a year.

We need the following jobs in order to have a society, and none of them allow for earnings more than around 50k a year, at the very best:

-Nurses
-Teachers
-Academics
-Drivers (cabs, Uber, etc.)
-Manufacturing staff
-Most STEM roles e.g. technical engineers, lab staff
-Junior to intermediate level civil servants of all stripes
-Social workers
-Artists
-Nannies and childcare workers
-Cleaners
-Waiting staff
-Actors
-Construction workers
-basically any role you can think of that isn't a profession, senior management, or in the consulting realm...
Etc.

These roles have to be filled by huge armies of people and if they start to get paid 100k a year, I'm really sorry but there isn't enough money for that. Our society isn't structured to allow for that.

Another thing for you to learn... despite the delusions you have, I am here to tell you that there are not unlimited 100k+ roles out there for folk to take on if they are just ambitious enough.

Are you aware that companies and governments have limited funds with which to pay their staff? It's called a "budget", it's a new thing that people are trying out recently. It's leading to all sorts of weird things like having caps on earnings for certain roles. I know, weird isn't it? It's almost as if money isn't unlimited and a capitalist system has to have an underclass in order to function... hmmm... could that possibly mean that just because you want to earn 100k a year, that there may be other forces at play that may preclude even the most eager and hardworking...?

Nah probably just the lazy poors eh. Just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

I am saying all this because you need to develop some kind of empathy and respect for people who fill jobs that are low paid, for your benefit. They are paid little so that their services are cheap enough for YOU to access.

Don't fucking sneer at people for doing what society needs in order for us all to live, just get on with seeking arrangement with a wealthy comfortable man and leave the rest of us to run the world.

Also, if the OP has been mingling with high earning men that wish the same kind of future as the OP, why is she struggling to find a suitable partner?

I didn't want to say this but I did think it. If your social and professional networks are full of nothing but high earners - to the point where you hadn't even realise that a lot of people earn a lot less- surely it shouldn't be hard to find a suitable man through work, or through a friend or a friend of a friend...

This thread is increasingly depressing. The OP wants a man who is basically never satisfied with what he earns and is constantly striving to earn more and more. No amount will be enough. I can't see how people like that can ever be happy, especially with a wife like the OP clearly wants to be, pushing hard from behind, constantly questioning when he's going to 'progress more' whilst staying at home to look after multiple children. Sounds like a nightmare.

Not sure what being 33 has to do with it. Are you suggesting I should hurry up because of a biological clock and the fact I will lose my looks?

If so, what a great reason to settle down quickly!

As I said a few pages back (!) I have had a number of man wanting to pursue things and I haven’t been interested. Because it’s not ALL about money. As I have also said.

Have we considered that since the OP didn't know that sub-£45k jobs exist (except waitresses and hairdressers, natch) and thought that teachers should be aiming for £60k+, these high-earning men she apparently works with might be lying to her about their salary and/or working hours?

We aren't dealing with a worldly person here.