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Original poster

Expectations of men as a modern woman dating...is this unreasonable?

764 replies

Turtleneckjumpers · 04/08/2019 11:00

I'm single. I have a decent job which allowed me to buy a house in my late twenties (by no means a mansion, worth circa 220 in 2015).

I care about a nice home and want to see a bit of the world. I'm not materialistic in the sense of buying designer clothes etc (I'm a Primark person mostly!). But money bothers me. It is important to me because it is a safety net in many ways. So I work hard and hope to always be able to support myself.

Here's the question. I date. So many men have either not bought a house (I do understand this isn't easy, but by age 38 I question this!!) or in an average job earning less than I am - significantly.

I've met a lovely man, 38, good fun. But in a recent conversation he voluntarily disclosed what he earns (45k) and said he has a good bonus and car and he's happy with that. I didn't say this but i was thinking really?! Are you just going to think ok I'm happy with that?!

I've been thinking about how awful this probably makes me and how it is probably why i have been single for a few years now. Also people into their jobs are often (not always i know) not the best partners. But i can't help being bothered by this. I want someone who wants to provide and is ambitious. Am I attracted to the wrong things here or is this reasonable?

OP posts:
feministwithtitsin · 06/08/2019 20:52

@TatianaLarina

But 45k is more than a reasonable salary. Its more than most 38 year olds earn. That's the whole point.

TatianaLarina · 06/08/2019 21:10

Certainly more than reasonable to have invested in property by now.

IcedPurple · 06/08/2019 21:13

Certainly more than reasonable to have invested in property by now.

God forbid anyone should have different ideas about how to use their money.

blueshoes · 06/08/2019 21:48

I've met a lovely man, 38, good fun. But in a recent conversation he voluntarily disclosed what he earns (45k) and said he has a good bonus and car and he's happy with that. I didn't say this but i was thinking really?! Are you just going to think ok I'm happy with that?! ... But i can't help being bothered by this. I want someone who wants to provide and is ambitious.

The minute I read this in your OP, I knew it was not going to go well.

Lots of people, as you have probably figured out by now, think £45,000 is a lot of money. It is but in certain circles, it isn't.

Over the din of angry voices, I just want to say I know what you mean. YANBU.

blueshoes · 06/08/2019 21:55

Somebody at 38 is at the prime of his life. His trajectory of potential earnings will be steepest from now. A man with ambition will maximise that potential. A family man who wants to provide well for his family will go for it at this stage.

I would not want someone to kick back and say job done, time to coast. But I appreciate ambition. Seems to be a dirty word. Ambitious men are not narcs or necessarily workaholics or ruthless or want trophy wives.

Ambitious people know what they are capable of and strive to take the next step up and challenge themselves to go out of their comfort zone. Self improvement, confidence and the willingness to learn and work hard is a very attractive quality.

IcedPurple · 06/08/2019 21:58

Ambitious people know what they are capable of and strive to take the next step up and challenge themselves to go out of their comfort zone. Self improvement, confidence and the willingness to learn and work hard is a very attractive quality.

Sounds grim.

Life isn't a self-help book.

Original poster
Turtleneckjumpers · 06/08/2019 22:02

blueshoes that’s exactly what it is. It’s the fact at 38, with no commitments, no home, he’s chosen to just accept that and go no further, when he has every opportunity to.

It’s all well and good saying 45k is enough. But if I’m earning more than him and he is kicking back on the idea that less than that will have him sorted...especially when he owns no property...it seems totally alien to the environment I find myself in at work. I have plenty of time to spend at home, with family, on holiday. You can earn decent money and do those things too, I fear it’s actually a convenient excuse to say that more money means harder work and harder work means no family or personal time. No, often it means harder work while you’re at work. Full stop.

OP posts:
blueshoes · 06/08/2019 22:04

Life isn't a self-help book.

This isn't even remotely self-help. Ambition is innate.

TatianaLarina · 06/08/2019 22:07

God forbid anyone should have different ideas about how to use their money.

Well quite.

IcedPurple · 06/08/2019 22:11

This isn't even remotely self-help. Ambition is innate.

Don't be totally daft.

And even if ambition were 'innate' - it isn't - it wouldn't neccessarily translate to wanting to earn ever more cash so that you can fund your wife's lack of economic activity and 'ambition' to stay at home.

blueshoes · 06/08/2019 22:12

it seems totally alien to the environment I find myself in at work.

OP, this is the key.

If you are in the medical professional (I believe), you would be working with clever and hardworking professionals who spent lots of time studying and working all hours in hospitals in far flung locations to get where they are. These are ambitious people who are prepared to put in the graft and sacrifice and/or have a admirable sense of vocation.

Compare that to someone who is happy at £45,000 and reached his career peak by 38 and probably did not put in half the amount of effort as a doctor in training to get there.

That is not very impressive.

You have to remember is that the company and your colleagues - who live in this bubble and stratified environment - are the ones who are exceptional (or the exception). The rule for the rest of the country is the man at 38.

That is what's informing the posts.

dodgeballchamp · 06/08/2019 22:13

blueshoes nobody has disputed that IN SOME CIRCLES £45k is not a lot of money, I think everyone except the OP can recognise it’s all relative. Nobody is sneering at ambition either, merely pointing out that it means different things to different people and that is OK, just like it is OK if this guy is happy with his lot and content despite not owning property and earning 6 figures. You don’t have to agree with him but it’s doesn’t make him odd or wrong. It’s OP’s lack of awareness about different demographics and the reality of life for most people that’s the problem here, and her contempt for a guy who to all intents and purposes is doing fine, and her bizarre contradictory and backward views. that’s the problem, not whether 45k definitively is or isn’t a lot of money. You’ll never get a consensus on that obviously!

LolaSmiles · 06/08/2019 22:13

Ambitious people know what they are capable of and strive to take the next step up and challenge themselves to go out of their comfort zone. Self improvement, confidence and the willingness to learn and work hard is a very attractive quality.
All nice things to do.
It doesn't mean ambition equals working your way up the ladder and seeking the next pay rise.

One of the best moves I made in my career to challenge was to leave my career and retrain and start again at the bottom. Another challenge and move that was good was actually a sideways move. Both were valuable experiences. Both have contributed to promotions later.

Equally I've worked with colleagues who've chased the next promotion, got head of department in their 3rd year and sure they're ambitious and want the pay, but I tell you what they haven't got credibility. I like them as people usually, but I don't respect their professional knowledge base and they haven't got enough breadth of experience to be a credible leader. There's a certain type of person who is always chasing the next promotion and they aren't always the ones with the goods to back it up. They're very ego driven and work tends to be the centre of their world, or they're quite lazy and talk the talk so get promoted above their capability.

I equally work with colleagues who are upper pay scale and long serving teachers or middle leaders who I respect vastly more than those on higher pay. They wouldn't tick the OP's boxes for successful or ambitious but the integrity that they have each day, their drive to be better this year than the year before, the way they reflect before acting, the way they value staff wellbeing, model work life balance and so on makes them a much better person to work with (and I would imagine a much better partner than the person who is always chasing the next promotion).

Somewhere in the middle you have people who are more ambitious than the second group, but more humble than the first group. They want to progress, but not at the expense of other life elements. They are ambitious but want the right post at the right time and are happy being the best they can be until the time that post arises. They're not chasing the next step. They focus on kmproving

LolaSmiles · 06/08/2019 22:14

** improving themselves over time.

IcedPurple · 06/08/2019 22:14

It’s the fact at 38, with no commitments, no home, he’s chosen to just accept that and go no further, when he has every opportunity to.

No home? Is he living out of a cardboard box or what?

Anyway, it's clear this man isn't the one for you. And that's fine. He owes you abosolutely nothing, and vice versa. So why moan about how he's not fitting into your idea of what a man should be? Move on and find that 'amibitous' man ready and willing to subsidise your lack of similar ambitions.

simone1863 · 06/08/2019 22:14

Go on OP - It's sales, isn't it?

dodgeballchamp · 06/08/2019 22:15

Also I can’t believe we’re having to repeat again that “working hard” and “having ambition” does not automatically translate to “earning stacks of money!” Unless you have a very narrow definition of both and only a few career paths are deemed acceptable to you

MarieBaroneIsMyMom · 06/08/2019 22:17

I said that usually people who earn a lot are ambitious

I’m hugely ambitious. I earn £105k. My husband isn’t at all ambitious. He earns £106k.

He’d have run a mile if he was chased down by a biological-clock-on-legs who wanted him to make her a housewife.

IcedPurple · 06/08/2019 22:17

If you are in the medical professional (I believe)

I seriously doubt anyone with the poster's lack of basic logical skills would thrive in the medical profession. At least I hope not.

blueshoes · 06/08/2019 22:19

And even if ambition were 'innate' - it isn't - it wouldn't neccessarily translate to wanting to earn ever more cash so that you can fund your wife's lack of economic activity and 'ambition' to stay at home.

I think I am ambitious. I am currently looking to find a job that is a step up - this will be my 3rd time doing it over 10 years. I do it because I want to, it does not make sense to me to coast and I want to earn more money so my children to have a decent pot. If my dh wanted to take a few years out of work and that was mutually agreed, then it is nice to be able to fund that too.

That is why I say ambition is innate.

I would not think to do otherwise whereas others who are not (and I totally respect that - MIL I am looking at you) will wonder why on earth do I push myself so much. In my eyes, I am not. It does not make sense to sit back, that's all.

IcedPurple · 06/08/2019 22:21

That is why I say ambition is innate.

So because you and your husband are ambitious, then it follows that it's innate?

That's startlingly poor logic, even by the standards of this thread.

blueshoes · 06/08/2019 22:24

Somewhere in the middle you have people who are more ambitious than the second group, but more humble than the first group. They want to progress, but not at the expense of other life elements. They are ambitious but want the right post at the right time and are happy being the best they can be until the time that post arises. They're not chasing the next step. They focus on improving themselves over time

Ok. At least they are trying to improve. Did not sound like the man on £45,000 is trying to improve.

blueshoes · 06/08/2019 22:25

IcePurple are you ok?

IcedPurple · 06/08/2019 22:26

IcePurple are you ok?

I'm great thanks! The smug on this thread is a joy to behold! Haven't had such fun since the last fart thread!

Original poster
Turtleneckjumpers · 06/08/2019 22:28

Someone who is 38 and thinks they’ll settle on 45k when they have every opportunity to better the lives of not only themselves but their children...really?

Everyone seems agrees that money = privilege. However you look at it, you should want to put your children in the best position possible. Imagine having a father who spent all his thirties making average money when he could have done better...to then have children who one day will need money for university, a home. Life is tough and you should pull your weight as far as you can. There’s nothing to be proud of by sitting on a moral high ground of ‘i Don’t want more money because I want more time,’ when actually the majority of high paying jobs take the exact same amount of time as the lower paid ones.

OP posts: