Just another MN cynic or are these red flags?

[Strawberryblondereally]

NC’d. Divorced 2 years ago and have been dating with various success. Met my DP 10 weeks ago and have been overwhelmed by my feelings....He has been everything I could have hoped for. We have seen each other most days since meeting initially if even just for a coffee during lunch, the sex is the best I’ve ever had, we have so much in common and he makes me smile so much....

I’m a MN veteran and have read about narcissists and the like over the years so am quite attuned to the signs....I haven’t wanted my DP to meet my DC yet as I thought it a bit early but he was very keen from the off. He has DC too. It was my DC bday and I’d mentioned in passing to him that I’d forgotten to pick her up cupcakes and an hour later he turned up at my house unannounced and delivered 48 Lola’s cupcakes. My DC opened the door to him....it was all quite awkward and I didn’t know what to do....now I know this was a generous act but I stressed that I didn’t want him meeting my DC yet and he just totally ignored it....when I confronted him later about it he accused me of being shut off as a result of my marriage breakdown....I’m not at all and my marriage ended amicably....

I’ve spoken to friends and they say he has red flags everywhere which I’ve probably just ignored to be frank....he’s lavished me with expensive gifts, taken me to fancy restaurants, holidays etc all in 10 weeks which I thought was just generosity but my friends think is alarming....he’s also talking about us living together and getting married this year which sounds ridiculously soon to me but each time I say that he gets really upset and accuses me of not loving him....

Am I being cynical here? Might this guy just be a gudun and I’m allowing my paranoia to creep in?

@Strawberryblondereally It's really hard to see those red flags when you're in the relationship and being charmed and showered with gifts and love but they're big I promise you. Listen to your friends, listen to people here who have lived this stuff and know exactly what's coming down the line if you stay with this man. You and your children deserve much better.

Trying to add you on find my friend is not ok and not normal. I find it fucking weird that anyone would have it active but at least there should have been a conversation about why.

You say that he hasn't reacted aggressively and you don't think he'd ever be violent and that might be true but it's also a common pattern with men like him. They keep all that stuff in check until you've moved in together or got married. It's much harder to end a relationship with someone when you've made a commitment to them, especially financially.

You also said that how he behaves in the next 7 days is a test. Anyone can not be a creepy narc for a week, how is that proof of anything and tbh it amazes me that you need a test because all the evidence is there already. @Graphista has made a very good list of his worrying actions.

OP the tone of your posts have changed since your OP. Read your OP back again and please remember how you were feeling when you wrote it because it's clearly more than turning up with cupcakes that was bothering you and ringing your alarm bells.

I'd go as far as suggesting that your gut is screaming at you and you know it. I think there are many of his comments and actions that are making you feel uncomfortable.

I am in no way suggesting that you are in anyway having your head turned by the expensive gifts but I do wonder if you feel obligated to give him more chance's than you would have without them because of his overwhelming generosity?

This kind of intensity would have had me feeling uncomfortable and had me pulling away and finishing thing's. I have done during my decade of dating particularly with men who demanded my time and overly messaging. Suggesting marriage at this point is weird and you know this. You don't know each other after 8 weeks.

That’s all too much OP. Please trust the majority here this is unhealthy he’s pulling out all the stops to get you where he wants. He may not know he’s doing it but he’s not able to listen to you at all.
Imagine when he lives with you and you disagree with him and he doesn’t listen to you. I mean really “get you” and not do something because you asked. And follow that through (and act in a certain way to support you). Even now he showed up to see your kid and he did not support you nor listen to you on that.
That’s not excitement, that’s unhealthy. He just does what he wants. And when he sees he loses you, he does what you want, but the loved up and living together scenario will be dire. He will do what he wants. He won’t listen to you. He won’t lavish you. Sorry. Run.

Give the guy a chance. You seem well aware of things to look out for in a bad one so just keep that in mind and carry on having fun. If we all gave up on people at their first mistake everyone would be very lonely!
This
Just take your time and recess in 6 months.

OP have you been in an abusive relationship before? Or had an abusive upbringing? I ask because these people target abused people. Abused people are brilliant victims.

He sounds scarily like my ex. (It's triggering me just reading this). He also told me he used find my friends with his kids. He also had no SM presence. But that's because he deleted previous posts (with previous gfs). He has numerous accounts. He hides what he doesn't want you to see.

Read Graphista's and Lockcodger's posts if you read nothing else on this thread (and everyone has posted brilliant advice).

Mine was 100% lovely to start with. Nothing overtly controlling or unpleasant, and it completely drew me in. Made sure that I was completely bonded to him, and allowed him to manipulate and control me in gradually more and more sinister ways. Until it did become very clear. Even to me. But by then I was so enmeshed that I was an absolute mess.

Has he talked about previous partners? Do you know anything about his relationship history? (Or are there a number of insane girlfriends on there?). Mine talked about marriage within weeks - we were bloody planning a wedding! Moving in. Everything. The power of this man is incredible. I have actually told his current gf about the violence. Sent her proof. She is blind to it.

even now I can't really see it clearly. All I know is that he is dangerous to me and I need to stay away from him. The bonds are so strong. I can see what he's done with his wife (what I've pieced together) and I've spoken to a previous gf alot. What she's told me is terrifying. The power he has over her is horrendous - the longer you're with someone (like Graphista's mum?) the more you are abused and the less power you have. The more overt and cruel the abuse - it's like they need more and more humiliating and horrendous stuff to get off on . To show you who's boss. Until you become a shell of your previous self. I can see the power of mine with his ex w. I have seen first hand what he did to his previous gf (who he went back to), how awful and horrendous he's treated her - he can you see because she's so caught up in the cycle she thinks he loves her more than anyone else. She thinks she loves him. And I thought the same. But it's not love. Its control and power and abuse.

OP he sounds like a carbon copy of my ex. So much so, i'm wondering if it's actually the same person. I don't know how many more red flags you need. And yes, he'll be lovely over the next 7 days. You'll feel comforted and then when you go out with him next, he'll be lovely and respectful and you'll start doubting yourself. And he'll take it more slowly and you'll start to wonder why you even posted this. Because they are clever. They're not violent, drunk, wifebeaters. They're everything you want in a man (because they've worked out what you want in a man) and because of your history, you'll believe it. And you'll think your friends don't know anything. And you'll think how lucky you are finding a man like this.

I took mine back several times. Each time persuaded by the loveliness, the charm, the tears. The sex. The smile and the words. But it's just a mask. I thought he was my soulmate, but he is everyone's soulmate - able to mould himself to be what you want. The sob stories, the self pity. Poor him I thought with his ex w and his ex gf. I tried to work with him to get back in contact with his children. To make friends. To help him at work. God it got so costly to me. And for most of it the abuse wasn't clear - even now I doubt myself as to whether he was abusive or just over keen. He said he was like a puppy - loyal and over keen. And I believed that. But it wasn't.

My friends hate my ex. My older children actually told me to never go back to him. I so wish I'd listened to my friends.

This is a bit like when you first have a baby and the tiredness is like nothing else. Other parents try to explain the tiredness to you but you only realise how tired you actually are when you're in it! People on here can tell you all the red flags and everything that's happening but you won't realise until you're in it and it's too the late, the damage has been done. Only then when you come out the other side will you be able to spot men like this. Spot the same pattern they follow and the script they throw out at you. I'm sorry op but I have a feeling you'll find out the hard way.

I don't think there's anything else we can say to make OP wake up. We are wasting our time now. I just hope you do take notice OP.

Out of interest those that have been in abusive relationship didyoy identify red flags from the outset and talk with your friends? Why didn’t you listen to them? What was it that kept you hooked?

I knew nothing about red flags, but there were things that made me uncomfortable. Tbh, the time he redecorated my flat as a surprise gift a few months in didn't even register as something I had a right to feel uncomfortable about. It was fourteen years later, when I was finally walking away from the marriage that I remembered it and thought that was not right. The things that did make me uncomfortable, I was too ashamed to tell people about. I didn't have friends, that was a big part of the problem! I did try to talk to someone once, but he was charming to the outside world - a good Christian man, very generous with friends and really good company - she said my discomfort was probably pre-wedding nerves, so I don't remember now if I even mentioned any specifics. I wanted someone to give me permission to leave, but at 18 months we already had a house together and it seemed too difficult. Too embarrassing.

So my story is different from yours, of course they all are. But there are similarities. Mine was not the violent type - but since when has that been a sensible line in the sand? You wouldn't wait around, forgiving all else, till say 8 years down the line he hits you, would you? (In any case, violence rarely starts with a hit. An accidental shove on the way past. A firm grip that you can't escape from, so you pretend to yourself you don't want to walk away...)

Like a pp, I would say the abuse was never clear, in fourteen years together. And I still just think of him as a damaged man. I didn't have good self esteem when we met, so it took a long time for it to occur to me that my self esteem wasn't getting any better with him. That was one of my lightbulb moments, but I don't think I'd have left just because of that. It was the accidental damage he was doing to our DC that made the difference in the end. Gave me the strength to get out, to take that risk of maybe making a big mistake in throwing it all away.

Anyway, I think other people's stories won't make a difference to you, because who's to say they couldn't have turned out differently? The red flags people talk about, though, they're the common threads in all our stories. And they just don't happen in good relationships.

Excellent post Graph. You cant have it spelled out any clearer for you Strawberry!

When you asked why other abused women stayed, it's because we ignored all of the red flags Graph has just listed and instead focused on the trivial stuff you've mentioned about why hes a keeper I.e '^He’s been a twat but I miss his texts.....he writes lovely^

When you weigh that up against the huge alarm bells, is it really worth it?

P.S you already are an 'abused woman' however you speak about us as if we're somehow different to you. The only difference is that we have learned the hard way to not ignore these very important signs that someone is abusive and you are about to start that journey if you dont walk away from this man now

I recognise some of the behaviours you describe with a horrible ex but didn’t at the time eg turning up at my house unexpectedly when he had not been invited and not met my children (I made him park in a car park across the road and sat in his car with him as it was inappropriate for him to come in the house.) Also making out he was caring but really just checking up on me by calling in when he was passing (he lived 30 miles away.) Once he turned up to use the toilet! Lots of buying things (not flowers or presents just things I mentioned in passing) but then using it against me at a later date so I always felt indebted to him.

He was difficult to get rid of btw and actually became nasty when I ended it.

I will say though that in your case it is possible that the cakes thing alone was a thoughtless mistake.

10 weeks in he's just a new boyfriend really.

The 'getting married' part I'd be laughing in his face TBH

Think you both need to slow down.

Turning up unannounced with your dc there I'd have been livid

This was no mere mistake on his part Robin; he did overstep re the kids and now he has learnt from that one mistake he will be careful not to do that again. This individual who has latched himself onto Strawberry is very much a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Many abusive people target their intended with planning, due care and attention. Abuse does not happen overnight and it can and does creep up on people, it is really insidious in its onset.

His actions are about power and control. You yourself were targeted Strawberry, I have no doubts about that at all and he will over time (perhaps over the next several months or years even) enclose his grip on you ever tighter. He already sees in you an ideal mark; someone with shaky boundaries which have already been tested and further chinks in your armour which he has picked up on to exploit. He can read you and knows about you far more than you know him or perhaps will ever know about him. You may think you are a strong and otherwise no nonsense woman who takes no crap from anyone but that is also very attractive to such men who see such women as a further challenge to bring down.

What a waste of good advice this thread is. He added you on a tracking app after 10 fucking weeks. You are either winding us up or deep down this is what you want for some reason. Good luck.

I don't think you should have to take him through 'your boundaries'
You have boundaries when something is fucked up.

All of it has been wrong from the start, your boundaries aren't boundaries, they're normal behaviour.

Good that you've woken up and been up front, but it's time to close this chapter of your life op.

It's not normal.

Hadn't RTFT

Hhhmmmm

"he’s not controlling about who I talk to, he doesn’t follow me about etc......he tried to add me on find my friends last week and I said no as I thought it was creepy and never used it anyway and he was fine about it.....if he were a narc wouldn’t there have been some rage? Or a flounce even? There was nothing...."

What he is doing at the moment works for him. When he decides that this level of controlling you is no longer effective then other tactics will come into play.

As CharlotteCollinsneeLewis wrote, "No, your average narc will be utterly who you want them to be for the first year or two. You tell them they are being creepy and they will back off smoothly. And then try another tack..."

The tone of your posts has really changed and that's worrying

The narc tendencies right now are smoothed over - but see in a years time, or if you are vulnerable in some way and lose your job or get pregnant or whatever, he won't be so nice

Right now it's only 2 months in and you already have FLAGS. You know you do

SouthernComforts he didn't add her on tracking - but wanted to - red flags ablazin' (don't know if you can add someone without their permission or knowledge?) I don't see this thread as wasted advice, OP may be too far down the rabbit hole to ditch this potentially damaging man, but others in similar circs may read and take note.

I do not think this thread in itself is a waste of good advice. If it helps another person become more aware that this type of abusive scenario happen in relationships then all well and good. This is not taught in school.

OP, I’m recovering from a 2.5 year abusive relationship and it’s been horrific.

What you’ve written has triggered me because it sounds extremely similar to what happened to me.

I was naive and knew nothing about narcissist traits, I didn’t even know it was a thing. Now I’m in counselling and slowly but painfully recovering. My ex narc, said the same things as yours, loved me 6 weeks in, wanted to get married, live with me, said I was the one etc, wanted holidays with my kids, with his within 5 months. I went along with it all. Very handsome, tall, great job, own home... not had a long term relationship (but lots and lots of short ones) in 4 years since his divorce because he’d not met ‘the one’ until me.

Soon the generosity stopped, the gaslighting started, it was my fault things weren’t working out due to my ‘closing off’ ... he cheated... was my fault, was my fault I didn’t earn enough, so he wasn’t going to support me, my fault for not trusting him post cheating, and eventually my fault for him throwing me so hard to the ground outside my house that I had whiplash and bruising. My fault the police were called. My fault he wouldn’t apologise, my fault for everything.

I went back to him even after all this, then he ramped up wanting to see my kids again, would not accept me wanting to take things slow, got aggressive again and I almost killed my self trying to avoid a horrible argument with him on the motorway while I was driving.

It’s horrible. Please back off. Do not agree to any terms, timelines or anything else.

If you want to make sure he’s not a narc, push him back and stop the plans for anything except dating at arms length, for months and months.

I wish I had. I wish I had known what was happening at the beginning. I wish I had been cautious. I’ve been broken by this man, and it’s cost me a awful lot emotionally and financially to get back on track via counselling. I’m still having it 4 months later.

This stood out to me
I get what posters are saying about it impacting their children via the mother but isn’t that a choice you made? To put him first? I feel like I would never do that.....

When you're already said this earlier

If I’d have read my post as another MNer I’d be tutting and rolling my eyes but I’ve realised that when you’re in the situation it’s much more grey....

What happens when you get to a situation you find grey with your kids later, maybe one where you think it won't impact them, and then there's another that does every so slightly more and then another? Constant boundary erosion could take you there before you realise what's happening.

Totally agree with the tone of posts since your first one op.

There's an element of being ground down by this scenario, by conflict. In your head and heart.
Your initial post smacked of strength and self belief.
A few interactions with him, and you're slipping.

Noone normal spends over a £100 quid on bloody cup cakes.

It's that simple.

Come on op!

Even if he has nothing to do with your kids, it impacts them massively.

When you're spending so much time and energy on a person, when they're so all encompassing - you aren't spending it with your children. When, down the line, you're anxious or upset or worrying - they deal wtih that indirectly. You can't be a good mother to your children in that situation.

I know this thread isn’t about me or for me, but I’ve found it very helpful in making sense of what happened with my ex husband. So thank you to everyone who has posted their own story, it’s made me feel less alone / crazy and I can see it’s not all my fault.

I wish I’d known all of this at the time and had friends like MN to advise me. At the time I talked to my mum and sister who were like

“ wow isn’t he generous and kind, he must like you so much and he wants all the same things you do, like marriage and children. He’s perfect, don’t let him get away “.

I was made to feel that my boundaries were silly and unreasonable ( exactly the same as the OP, he met my kids after a few weeks by bumping into us at the park) .

He played the sympathy card by confiding in me all about his terrible abusive childhood ( I later learned was grossly exaggerated ) and his first marriage which ended when his wife left him and children for OM ( she did leave him but I’ve never seen any evidence of OM) .

So my guess is that the next stage in the OPs relationships will be playing for the sympathy vote, as she has told him that she wants to know all about his ex’s. So far he’s said nothing as he “doesn’t want to disrespect them” so now he will come back with a sad story to get her sympathy. Complete with “ breaking down “ etc .

My guess is that he’s said nothing so far as he doesn’t know which version of the story will play best with her. So if the OP has said how much she hates cheating, he will say his ex cheated.

My exH even told me he had been to therapy to get over his childhood and first marriage . Which wasn’t true to course but at the time I thought it was good sign that he has awareness and had worked on his issues.

I get what posters are saying about it impacting their children via the mother but isn’t that a choice you made? To put him first? I feel like I would never do that.....

I've been trying to think how to put into words the feeling you have when the mask has fallen and you realise what you have let into your life. Coming to terms with the fact that I allowed someone like one of my exes to even know where I live creeps me out to this day. Knowing that my children had been around such evil because of a choice I made, even if it's just opening the door to them once, makes my mum instincts go on overdrive to protect them because when the mask falls, you will be terrified of what's underneath

These men are not like normal human beings. What makes them so dangerous is their complete lack of empathy and sadism. They actually enjoy frightening you and seeing you scared. They want to destroy your life so that they can feel powerful. You can never truly know what they are capable of, so even when you end the relationship, you are scared for your children because they know where you live, know where you work, know your DC's surname and where they go to school. These things that seem so small right now will haunt you later.

Think of how you feel when you watch documentaries about serial killers or rapists and then imagine one day having that same feeling about the man who is showing up at your door with cupcakes. Imagine knowing that someone so evil has access to your life and that you invited him in. Imagine knowing that you have been sleeping with a complete stranger, who has lied to you about nearly everything and has a list of violent assaults against women, a stalker, a child abuser. Many women describe feeling 'raped by deception' which I can totally identify with as I'd never willingly have unprotected sex with a man who is also sleeping with sex workers for example.

Now imagine that you could have stopped that man in his tracks and stopped him from having access to anything else about you or your family. Your only protection is listening to your gut instincts. That creepy feeling when he showed up at your house and met your DC was your mum instincts telling you this is wrong and intrusive. You are ignoring that feeling and therefore 'putting him first'

Imagine that creepy yuk feeling you have but 100 times stronger when you finally realise what this man is truly about. None of this will feel worth it in comparison to that feeling.

You might read that and think so what, this doesnt apply to MY guy but when you have so many experienced women telling you the same thing, friends telling you the same thing and your gut telling you the same thing, you have to accept that you are making a very dangerous choice.

You shouldn't be dating anyone right now if you are unable to see these red flags as signs of abuse. There are many men out there like this and you have to learn how to spot them if you want to be a responsible mother.