"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

My sister named me as golden child, in her many Facebook rants she calls me ‘Little Miss sunshine’ and after I mentioned a golden child set up to my mum, she sent me a birthday card without my name but addressed to ‘The Golden child’
*
She meant it as a joke*

I'm not so sure she did.

But at the same time, I feel my mum has also obviously favoured me more - every achievement I have had has been due to her parenting of course. She feels popular because I am popular.

See, your follow-ups just make it appear even more clear you were anything but the golden child in the relationship.

Your mother shows narcissistic traits, the highlight of her "claiming your achievements" being a case in point.

It’s all very confusing. It’s hard to think of them as bad people, although I won’t have a relationship with my sister (and rightly so) I can’t escape the feeling of shame, guilt and sadness.

My mum has done some dreadful things in my life, but in other ways she has been brilliant. I feel that grieving my dad has made me ponder a lot on childhood and I miss those days and those people.

As my dad’s mental health issues got worse, our family fractured irreparably. Control, dysfunction and pretending things were fine was rife.

I can’t help but feel that by not inviting any of them to the day, I am the one putting the final nail in the coffin of the relationships. Like all the blame can now be put on me, because look ! She didn’t INVITE US to her WEDDING.

You'll find the www.outofthefog.net website helpful, it's focused on the Fear, Obligation, Guilt triad.

Thankyou so much @SimplySteveRedux

The fact that the toxic conditioning of childhood, be it keeping the secrets of the dysfunctional family , or continuing some form of abuse, (and stonewalling / rewriting history is abusive), continues into adulthood and very often for a lifetime, is a marker of exactly how toxic the parents were.

Yes, I've posted a few times on these threads about the "Childhood Disrupted " book (I should be on bloody commission by now...) and it's research into Adverse Childhood Experiences and their predisposition to heart disease, cancer, depression, chronic pain, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue and autoimmune conditions.

https://acestoohigh.com/got-your-ace-score/

Siblings are still under the influence, they've probably been under the dark influence for a lot longer, and are still playing a toxic game you are free of.

Obviously we only have our personal experiences. My brother revelled in his superior position gleefully joining in with the abuse, and while I have no doubt he suffered, and is no question in denial about the impact the toxicity has affected his life I will never be able to forge a normal relationship with him, because (and the age gap of almost 10 years) he was complicit and a willing participant.

A toxic game I am free of? The toxic game that renders me with several autoimmune conditions, PTSD, CPTSD, depression, anxiety, fibromyalgia, M.E. The toxic game that's rippled self harm scars across my arms, that makes me curl into foetal position in the middle of the night when the demons come, the toxic game that's defined my adult life. Free? I bloody wish.

@SailorJerry13 you have my sympathy.
If you don't want them there, don't invite them. Yes it might feel/be the final nail in the coffin but you've been pushed to this limit. It's not your doing, and you have been forced into this position.

FWIW I wish I hadn't invited my mum to my wedding after the tried to derail it/me before it. I can't really look at my wedding photos now. She pushed my husband out of the way to pose with me, the bride, whilst he was In the background..

You will feel regret and guilt , but that's because you are human and normal. And of course it's very very sad. I am in the thick of my FOG and I can't offer any wisdom other than you are not alone

Long complicated back story, but I am having CBT and have been told that 'childhood trauma has permanently damaged my brain'!
Is that not a statement to boggle the mind? How to deal with it? Is it true do you think?

@SimplySteveRedux

I’m sorry your brother was complicit in your abuse, my sister certainly is and seems to enjoy thinking of me hurt. But my brother often tried to protect me, or at least diffuse situations.

It doesn’t feel like freedom does it ? It’s lonely, isolating and depressing. Family should be the ones we turn to when we are hurting, but instead seem to be the ones that hurt us the most.

@acornfed

Yes I can see my mum doing that. I actually can’t think of one event that she hasn’t made about herself so don’t imagine MY wedding day would be much different.
I can’t see a time where I won’t feel the FOG, but hopefully after the day has been and gone it’ll easier to look back with happiness and not regret x

Thankyou so much

Long complicated back story, but I am having CBT and have been told that 'childhood trauma has permanently damaged my brain'!

Very true, and Adverse Childhood Experiences (go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=acestoohigh.com/got-your-ace-score) also predispose to heart disease, cancer, fibromyalgia, depression, chronic pain, chronic fatigue and autoimmune disease.

Studies have shown marked changes in the brain of someone subjected to ACEs, compared to someone who hadn't, even when MRI scanned decades later.

Ok, how do I deal with that? I suppose it might be useful to know that there are some things that won't get better...

I did read the link the shared, and I’m shocked at learning that the actions of the people meant to care for us can then cause such serious issues later in life...

I hope your CBT goes well, and your health issues aren’t severe. How awful :(

Funnily enough, when I was a young child I used to pray, and as my childhood went on and I was left feeling more and more alone I realised that praying was pointless - no one was listening. There was no divine intervention to save me. Karma didn’t happen (although later it did in a way) I just had to make the best of it.

Whoops sent too early - my final paragraph point was - many of us probably tell ourselves things will work out in the end but what a kick in the teeth to then suffer with our health afterwards

It's completely reversible, quote from the "Childhood Disrupted" book, I heavily recommend it:

The new science on Adverse Childhood Experiences and toxic stress has given us a new lens through which to understand the human story; why we suffer; how we parent, raise, and mentor our children; how we might better prevent, treat, and manage illness in our medical care system; and how we can recover and heal on a deeper level than we thought possible.

And that last bit is the best news of all. The brain, which is so changeable in childhood, remains malleable throughout life. Today researchers around the world have discovered a range of powerful ways to reverse the damage that Adverse Childhood Experiences do to both brain and body.

No matter how old you are, or how old your children may be, there are scientifically supported and relatively simple steps that you can take to reboot the brain, create new pathways that promote healing, and come back to who it is you were meant to be.

I have spent 30 odd years getting past this and not being a victim of my childhood. It's rather a blow to find that I might never be able to change the reaction I have to some situations. I am a strong person who has thrived despite what was done to me ffs!

homemadecommunistrussia

Everyone is different and has different circumstances. Instead of trying to undo the damage, take it step by step, one piece of the puzzle after the next. We don't know what undoing the damage means...what your 'normal' reaction would look like so you feel comfortable and at ease. It's a bit like part of our identity is missing and our focus should be on finding it and have 'aha moments'.

How long have you been in therapy for? After some time, I still get steamrolled by unhelpful thoughts etc., but I spot them much sooner and slowly I am able to react in a way I want to and not in a way my past dictates. Be kind to yourself.

Thanks catflap I am only a few sessions in. this time around I have to say my counsellor basically says the same as you just have and trys to get me to look after myself.
I really just would like to be normal though.

Today is a much better day. I cried every day for the past month, but not today! I feel strong and empowered to tackle whatever is in front of me. Some realisations have been hard to digest but I also feel liberated. Somehow I allow myself more and more to make my own choices and not be ruled by FOG.

Right now I am thinking of ways as to how to 'play the game' with my family. I fear that my mother may sense my increasing independence - whenever I visit, just a few times a year, I turn into a child again and the same old pattern repeat. All I would be occupied with is to make sure I do exactly as she expects from me, the simplest tasks such as putting laundry up to dry in the right way. There is only one right way - all eyes watching! If I don't do it right she'll say something and I will react and become frustrated, which leads her to react and almost reprimand me (usually some stuff along the lines that I am too sensitive, difficult or some other shit). There would be countless such examples during a week long visit.

Slowly over the past year I have noticed I sometimes go grey rock, other times I assert myself in a non-emotional way, both of which I don't think she likes because I do not let her control me. I feel she may become more aggressive as a result to get a reaction out of me and I have started to see some signs for it. I now plan to reduce my time spent there. I go maybe 3 times a year for about 7-8 days each. I will reduce the length of each stay for my own sanity.

Another issue is my brother, who is 4 years older than me. We are ok, but not close. There is no such thing as talking through problems in this family ever. So I am not sure how to start getting through to him. He lives near my parents and I may just have to accept that he will keep on singing their tune. I may need to try and be grey rock in order to keep contact for the sake of my 4yo niece. I love her very much and want to be in her life.

homemadecommunistrussia

I wish you much success. Counselling is a rollercoaster - so there will be some highs too!

I sometimes got so fed up with all sorts of realisations and the low days and even weeks that followed, but I slowly break free from my past and the good days I have in between are so worth it. The good days are now much better than the good days some years ago - they are much happier.

I just don't think counselling has worked for me there is just too much damage.
I prefer to manage myself my main strategy is keeping well away from them.
Its tragic how many people were gaslighted, that is such an awful form of abuse. A couple of the posts I actually thought I'd written until I saw the OP names were different to mine.
I loathe gaslighting, my entire life of almost 60 years my family have excused my step fathers abuse of me by saying, you got the wrong end of the stick, no he didn't do that, you always have such an active imagination and I want to scream at them.
You don't imagine a door being slammed in your face or someone telling you you are a useless bastard. And that's just the tip of the ice berg.
When I was younger I actually used to wonder if I was going mad and making it all up but now I'm old enough to know better and I know without any doubt it is all real and they gaslight so they don't have to deal with it.

homemade I’m slightly wary of what you’ve been told. Have you had cognitive testing by a psychologist or an assessment by a psychiatrist/neurologist?
An accredited councillor will be able to explore with you where your trauma may lie and will support you to understand where your thoughts and actions have been impacted by that trauma. Is that what they mean by ‘damage’?
I have no idea what’s happened to you and don’t know you but I hope you hold on to the belief that your life has meaning.
CBT offers strategies for coping with the effects of current problems, it does little or nothing to address the causes of the problems, especially those in the distant past. There are other types of psychotherapy/counselling which can address the fundamental causes of your issues rather than coping with the effects, but you may feel that it is not an approach you would welcome.

I haven't had any sort of testing. My trauma was a long time ago and my life has moved on and the main person who abused me is cut right out of my life.
I wanted the CBT because I now find myself in a stressful situation that I just can't get away from. The idea was it would help me cope. Maybe it's the wrong thing, there's not much on offer.

Oh sorry i meant to say thankyou to the people who have replied to me. It is much appreciated.

Hi homemade if CBT is helping you cope then it’s exactly the right thing. I’m a big fan of talking therapy, with the right councillor it’s incredibly helpful.
I was just concerned that you were feeling very impacted by the statement about damage to your brain. I’m very glad to hear you’ve moved on from your abuser.

Thanks hero I don't know if it will help long term, but it's a comfort to have someone neutral to talk to.
The situation has been going on for years and although it's not a secret, my friends hear about it plenty! The therapist though has some insight and knows about my history and how that impacts on my reactions.
I am less convinced that it will actually enable me to cope better long term.

That's a great point that you make, about having people neutral to talk to. Before I found these SH threads I was close to suicide, fearing I was turning into my mother (and I'd rather die than put my partner and kids through that), and that I was truly the family "problem". I recently read "You've found your answers/peace, I'm/we're still looking for mine/ours"., I think it's very apt.

Frankly, these threads, and certain people (you know who you are), saved my life.

I read every post on these threads, even though my illnesses restrict my posting far more than I'd like, and I'm so happy you've moved on from your abuser too. You are exceptionally strong to do that, please don't sell yourself short.