"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Acornfed, I'm so glad you found your way here. This is the right place.

The short answer is yes, you will be happy one day. You've already done the sensible thing and taken the first steps. The decision to go NC is a journey and no one can tell how long that journey will last but you will get there.

It's such a shock to the heart when you go over the past and realise how long you've battled for love and acceptance, isn't it? In fact, it's really quite painful. However, once the blinkers are off, they never go back on again. Try to see this as a useful thing - however much it hurts - because once you are able to see clearly, you are in a better position to put coping strategies in place to protect your own mental and emotional health and that of your children's.

I'm not sure how long you've been NC but would I be right in thinking it's quite recent? For me, the first three or four months were the worst. There were days when I felt crippled by the grief: because it is a form of grieving, a sorrow for the mother/daughter relationship you should have had but was denied to you. Days like those I would engage in manic activity in an attempt to distract and displace. Other times when the bursts of activity didn't quite do the trick, I would retire to bed and cry till I was all cried out. I also kept a journal and that helped.

I knew the FOG was lifting when I started to have more good days than bad (although I was still vulnerable to unexpected side-swipes). Now, ten months in, I only have the occasional wobble and I have strategies in place to deal with those when they happen. Life on the whole, though, is free of the stress and the drama and the constant second-guessing, and I am free now. And calmer and much happier.

If you've only been NC for a short while, it's early days still but when you are at your lowest ebb, try to remember why you did it. And above all, remind yourself that you are protecting your children from your mother's toxic influence. You are breaking the cycle of abuse - and this means you are stronger than you think.

You have your DH. He understands and is supportive. You have your three children, and as long as you are doing everything in your power to make your children feel loved and safe and secure - feelings that every child should have but were so cruelly denied to you - you will make it.

Post on here as much or as little as you want. If there are times when you need to have a good old rant or share some painful memories, or need some calm words or a handhold - we've all done it - this is the place.

Thank you. I am four months into No Contact. The bitterness against me is stacking up. I have not asked about my new baby nephew etc etc

The thing is I know I am actually naturally a caring and sensitive person (despite the family narrative) and therefore it's killing me not to see my own nephews and nieces.

I wake up every morning and check my phone to see if my siblings have messaged me to ask how I am, and to talk. I check my phone all day. I still cling onto the hope they are going to come to me and ask what this is all about and listen to me. It's dawning on me that they are never going to do that.
And that's the hardest part . It's the killing of hope that I will eventually, one day be understood.

I hate them for what they have done to me for decades but I miss them too

Acorn Big hug you've made the big realisation at a really sensitive point in life, just after having your own child. Its panic inducing, enraging and greviously painful. But yes, you can and will be happy again. In fact over time you'll probably find you are happier than you were when you fulfilled your role as family punch bag.
In the meantime get support. I think things look good for you. You've got a psychologist and a supportive dh. I'd also suggest a separate thread on here with your opening post so people can cheer you on. The Stately Homed thread is also worth looking through. Saved my life that thread.
I've recently come across Kris Godinez on YouTube- shes great. Lots of practical tips as well. I'm using her videos to get me through a final estrangement w my deeply narcissistic F while I wait for therapist appointment next week. I'd recommend.
Maybe print out or write down this incident with the taxi at your c-section and keep it handy when you feel nostalgic about your mother. Who does that? How self absorbed do you have to be to see everything as only about you. She had a script in her head about her role. In that script you and your needs (and your families needs and your babies needs) were irrelevant. She cant accommodate them, cue total narc raging when it doesn't go to plan, followed by smearing because she csnt be at fault. Its classic. Its harmful. Stay away from her.

It's the killing of hope that I will eventually, one day be understood.

That is the hardest bit, acornfed. A kind word, even a "how are you" message from your siblings would mean so much. However - and I'm sorry to say this - it's unlikely to happen for two reasons.

The first is that your narc sister and your golden child brother had a very different experience of childhood than you. They simply don't, or won't, understand the thousand cuts inflicted on your wellbeing, your confidence, your self esteem. It's a blind spot for them. Your narc sister, in particular, lacks empathy and so there is no chance ever of her putting herself in your shoes even for a moment. She'd be going against her own instincts, as well as the habits of a lifetime.

That doesn't mean that their assigned roles are without price, of course. Theirs are golden chains, but chains nonetheless.

The second is that your narc sister and your golden child brother need you back in the family circle. It is your job to be the scapegoat, punching bag, bearer of all that is negative and wrong in your family. Now that you've done the only sane and sensible thing you could do and withdrawn from the situation, who is going to take over your scapegoat role? Someone has to. Heaven forfend that it might be either of them. So they will gaslight you and emotionally blackmail you until you "do the right thing" and come back. It's the only strategy they know. They are acting entirely out of self-preservation and your mental and emotional wellbeing is a price they are more than willing to pay to take the pressure off themselves.

You mentioned that you have another brother who is currently in exile abroad. I'm wondering if he fled because he couldn't cope with the family dynamics anymore (mine did) and whether you are in touch with him. Might he be a support for you, even at a distance?

Lasttimeround makes a good point about the script in your mother's head. The taxi dash, the tantrum, the subsequent sulking and silence, at a time when you were going through a caesarean - all classic behaviour. This was all about your mother being centre stage. You (and your DH and your children, for that matter) are all just bit players with walk-on parts in the story of her life.

Five years ago, my DH had aggressive cancer and equally aggressive chemo. He lost four stones and all of his hair. When he wasn't in hospital hooked up to IV antibiotics to fight life-threatening infections, I was nursing him at home. He was too weak to even walk to the bathroom without me there to physically support him. I was distraught. And exhausted. To my surprise, M rang me every evening "to see how you are and if there is anything I can do". So worn down and vulnerable was I that I went against the habits of my lifetime and poured out my innermost thoughts and fears. I even thought that she had finally come through for me and was being the mother I'd always hoped for. Stupid stupid me. It wasn't about supporting me at all. It was about M living in the middle of her own personal glorious soap opera, feeding off my distress and telling the wider family how marvellous she was at coping with it all. You see, when I did ask her to actually do something for me, a simple thing, she reverted to type. "Stop feeling sorry for yourself", she snapped. "Lots of people get cancer. They get over it. I have arthritis but you don't hear me complain".

My DH is OK now, by the way. I have no idea how she is.

Acornfed, now is the time to write your own family story, one of mutual love and care and support. You, your DH, your children. You can do this.

I am so pleased I found this space.

I tried to start my own thread but it got highjacked by someone being angry and it made me feel unsafe.

My brother who lives far away with his family doesn't really engage with the rest of the family anymore on any deep level. He and his wife realised that they couldn't survive with the level of my mothers interference. He would be a support, but the tragic twist In the tale as that I was conditioned by my mum to be be her flying monkey and join in in his ostracism. I am ashamed of that , but I was only a child when I started to do that. I now have awakened to it all.

I have tried to talk to him, he says what he needs to but never follows up. He's healed and has reached "indifference" towards us FOO

My sister has always hated me. In her eyes I took her mother away from her when she was 14 - which is when I was born. There was such a scarcity of love. My mother was neglectful to the needs of her, a teenage girl. My sister was going to make damn sure I was going to be treated like rubbish and made to be the bad one, and i was going to have a neglectful mother like she had. So I never stood a chance really from birth.

When i was newly graduated and started my new job- my first job was living in a remote place away from my friends In a demanding job. My sister told my mum that she needed to cut me off to get me to stand on my own two feet. She had been "too soft on me." My mum stopped taking to me for 6 months suddenly . I wondered what the hell I had done. I was so isolated and alone.

There has been such a campaign of hatred from my sister . She does anything to tarnish my name.
I tried to talk to my dad- he doesn't see any of it. He denies it and tells me I need to leave the past behind. When I talk to him about my sister he says "it's like we are from two different families"

My mother told me to "grow up" "everyone had the same mother and the same treatment - get over it".

My sister - she just sneers,
Rolls her eyes , tells me to get a life and then spreads more lies about me

Feeding off my distress
Like sharks who sense blood they gather around the wounded the vulnerable the distressed
they are attracted to asymmetries of power, situations where they can get some leverage, wherever you are compromised or weak they are drawn to you.
Remember that the most dangerous predator is the wolf in sheep's clothing, the iron fist in the velvet glove, he inflicts his wounds with a kindly smile on his face

Singinglily what an awful thing for your mother to say about your husband.

My husband witnessed his colleague been blown apart whilst he was in the army.
He came to stay with my mum for a bit of rest after his tour (we were not yet married and I was SO naive) . She said "people die in the army, that's what you expect when you join." Why didn't I just learn 14 years ago, go NC then and save myself all this misery??m

She wrote me a 9 page letter when I got engaged about how my husband "doesn't tick any of her boxes" and "how this love thing doesn't laugh" . She apologised at the time 10 years again, but then said last year she stood by it all. Cognitive dissonance- it literally has driven me to feeling like I am going mad with her lies and false apologies.

I feel very safe and supported in this thread @acornfedcorn and I hope you do too😊
Funnily enough I really did have a childhood full of stately homes, castles etc I suppose this stems from my parents instinctive feeling that they were the king and queen and I was thier subject!

• "Love this doesn't last"

Thank you, acornfed, and what a callous thing your mother said, after such a traumatic experience for your DH. It's the lack of empathy - always a dead giveaway.

As for the bit about the nine page letter and your DH not ticking any of her boxes 🙄. Priceless. My mother completely ignored our engagement and on our wedding day, gave it six months. Yet here we are, 25 years later. She probably sees that as a personal affront.

Thank you too, Ulterego. It's so liberating when you realise that you don't have to put up with it anymore, that you have a choice and can walk away.

Singinglily I felt that any time someone shared a story about how they were sad about someone who had died my mum felt jealous that they weren't thinking about her. It's sick. A complete lack of empathy.

I think that I need to post on this thread, ive been following it for a couple of years now. I was referred to the Mental Health Crisis team this morning, and had an appointment with them at 5pm. And, it's all about my relationship with my mother. I plan to meet her tomorrow, but I think I want to take DH, who has been the most supportive person ever, to tell her that the Crisis Team have advised I have no contact for at least a week.

Modre
Hi, glad you’re getting support, from your DH and the MH team. Sounds like a hard road.

Hi @Mordre😊 it's great that you have a supportive partner and that the mental health team recognise that the relationship with your mother is damaging

hi everyone - I'm sorry you're all here. wry smile

I've just found myself in a situation which is making my head spin and bringing up all sorts of well-buried memories - e.g., period poverty (no fucking poverty - just wouldn't buy me sanpro!) - and me sleeping in the park aged 14 because they wouldn't let me in. My kids asked me why I didn't tell anyone... what can you say? Because the shame of having to tell people you're so unloved??

Anyway. I split up with my ex-husband about 5 years ago and he said he'd always thought I was exaggerating about my family... until they offered him cash to take the kids away from me - at which point he leapt on board and backed me all the way.

Over the years there have been very long periods of NC because boundaries had not been respected. About 18 months ago my eldest asked about his grandpa. So, without giving identifying information about where we lived, I contacted my father and he flew in to a city near us and spent some time with the children. I made it crystal clear that it was the children's choice but there would be NO visiting the family home. All seemed to go well ... until interest tapered off.

12 months ago I had to go "grey rock" and put in very firm boundaries with my ex-husband who had been abusive in our marriage - I left with the help of WA.

I thought I was getting somewhere. Firm boundaries in place for all the major people in my life who had hurt me.

Last week I discovered that my parents (and sister) have been going via him to get access to the children - AND he's planning on taking them on holiday in about a fortnight to see them.

Devastated doesn't even come close to it. I've had nightmares and woken up crying at the visions and scenes of abandonment and blame.

They have sneered at me over the years about (repeatedly) getting involved in abusive relationships - and yet when I put boundaries in place to protect us all - they've colluded to destroy them.

I really don't know what to do. I'm at my wit's end - thank god for valium.

I'm new here. Well I have dipped in and out but things are very bad with my dm at the moment. They have never been great. She's quite a bully and loud and hurtful. Then manipulates and gets sick & cries when things don't go her way. She has damaged a lot of confidence over the years. Saying I am boring and have no friends even when I did (quite shy). She always makes hurtful comments and spoilt a lot of happy occasions for me with her drama. Particularly going into accident and emergency before my hen party and turning up mid way dramatically recovered. That type of thing constantly. She tried to sabotage a few relationships but I'm happily married now. Not long after getting married I said to my brother that dm was being nasty (she was really horrible) and he sent her the message and dh had to support me while her and my father screamed at me. I pulled away a few times and came back but low contact.

The problem is I sometimes can't face the drama. I just want to be happy. I know that is selfish but she once went to counselling and said she wanted to kill herself over me and read out a letter with all my faults and said that was part of the counselling. At the moment I haven't answered calls and I don't know why. Nothing happened but just her temperament makes me uneasy. Don't know what I want from all of this but she cries and says I am punishing her but she has punished me all my life.

Hi Chilli 😊great to see you on the thread! It's a bit late for me to write a proper post but I don't want to read and run so for now I just want to quickly say...you have the absolute right to go no contact, you have the absolute right to prioritise your own mental health and well-being😊

@Becky I'm so sorry that you're in such a lot of distress😟 how are you feeling now? people on here have a lot of experience in these matters you will get good advice, there is a way out of this situation 🤗

The past few weeks have been bad. After years of therapy I only just start to come to terms with the fact my family is toxic. I have lots of thoughts I cannot yet verbalise or write down, because it feels to horriffic that this is happening to me. For a few weeks now I have been trying to digest the realisation that my mother does not love me. I never said it out loud to anyone or myself. But I can type it now. I have work to do, trying to structure the chaos. I do keep a journal and below is what I managed to write down today. I want to share it here, because perhaps finally someone will hear me. I'm sorry to just butt in.######

What I thought was keeping me here, just a bit of love, is all gone.

They do not love me. I am not loved. They are not the family I thought I had. It is devastating and so hard. I have been struggling with this for weeks. It is not the bond I thought I had. It is not home. I knew when I was 14. I wanted to go home, wherever that was. Ignored it for years. Now it hits me again. It is still not home and never was.

I feel guilty for thinking this. And for writing this. I have other thoughts I do not dare writing down.

I am indeed alone in this world.

My parents did not protect me. I was not their priority. My well being was not a priority.

It is so hard to realise. So hard.

There is no safety. They are not interested in me.

I felt so depressed during and after my last visit. I kept having thoughts of cutting off contact. It hurts so much that this is happening to me. That I am even contemplating this.

I have no idea how I survived the first 18 years of my life. It must have been so hard. Much harder than what I am going through now. No?

I listen to songs from back home and they are not more than an illusion. I felt so connected to home in the past when I heard them, or so I thought, but now there is grief. Grief for the home I never had. Those songs just gave me a false sense of connection to...home... the home I desperately wanted to have. The home I never had. I never had what I thought I had. It was only in my dreams.

How on earth did I cope? Why, oh why did nobody ever hear me?

From day 1 this was my own battle for me to battle alone. For the past 37 years. I cannot forgive this.

I always thought that at least my father understood me. He rarely gave me a sign that he did, but I always felt that he secretely was on my side. But he did not protect me either. So no, he was not on my side.

This was my very own struggle and will remain so until I die.

catflap you sound very low, at perhaps the most difficult point of your journey. I’d say it’s very hard but maybe this is the point when you can start to focus on you now? Not on mending something which is broken, and that you didn’t break.
If you read back through the hard-earned painful words on this thread (years of stories like yours) you’ll see a couple of constants.
It’s not your fault. You can’t change them. You can change what you do.
Painful, hard, sad. But hopeful.

@catflap
I can relate to so much of what you say one of my mother's little jokes that she always used to say was 'I don't know how you reached 18' I didn't consciously dwell on it at the time but now I realise that she was laughing in my face about the fact that she was frequently tempted to do away with me

I also thought my father was the nice one but now I'm realising that he was just the quiet controlled one
you can get through this, you can move on and you can walk away from them and build your own life, surround yourself with things that help you and nurture you

catflap you are grieving which is hard but necessary. Feel it hut know you are grieving an illusion and something you have a right to grieve because you should have had a loving family. You didn't, but that's not your fault and you cant fix them. Be gentle and remember grieving will end and this gets better.

becky without knowing what jurisdiction you're it's not possible to know whether your fathers potential suit is a real threat or just more abuse that you can ignore. Fund out whether they have an actual claim. Find a lawyer make sure they have an understanding of toxic families personality disorder. If they do have rights where you are, prepare a counter with a lawyer where you list the abuse you suffered as a reason why your children are not safe with their grandparents. Good luck. But dont self flagellate about your own shortcomings as a reason for why they win. You can bet your ass they arent introspecting about what they did that caused you to remove yourself and your children from them. They let you sleep in a park at 14. That doesnt look like anyone I'd leave a child with. Given you've been low contact/no contact for years its unlikely they have any actual facts on your parenting or how safe your children were. They are trying to assert control, fight back.

Sorry Becky I misunderstood. You abusive ex is enlisting them. You left with WA help. So that means his abuse of you will be documented. Your parents siding with him is something that should raise flags for decision makers. Fight them.

lasttime In a nutshell yes. My Happy-Group-of-Abusers are working as a team. I'm worried about restricting contact with my ex because well... he's their father! However, by sending them there - he will take them to my parents.

I'm not sure if official/legal action is just. I know there's a lot on MN that you cannot withhold contact and fathers have rights etc.

Becky

Official action is just in your case; your ex and your parents are only acting in their own self interests so not yours or your childrens. I would certainly contact the Rights of Women and Womens Aid again here.