LEAVING sulking H

[jamaisjedors]

I can't believe this is my third thread.

I first posted in December about my H's sulking and silent treatment - I was ready to leave then but then got persuaded to give it another go.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3448545-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking?msgid=84022238

My second thread is where everyone helped me work through what was going on, helped IRL by individual and joint counselling.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3498886-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking-part2?msgid=85957683

We have now made a joint decision to separate, and I have found somewhere to live.

I don't regret not leaving in January because I have had time to process a lot of things, confide in friends, and come to understand a lot of things about myself and H.

However, sometimes I think it would have been a lot easier to power my way out of the door whilst still fuelled with a lot of anger.

Right now I am mostly very very sad.

Today seemed like a reasonably good day, H and I managed to discuss childcare arrangements up til the school holidays quite calmly and sensibly.

We each spent time doing fun things with the DC and H is actually encouraging them to get a little excited about the new house and buying new furniture etc.

But I have just been hit by a massive wave of sadness again after overhearing part of a conversation between DC1 and a friend. DC1 was saying that he had no idea at all this was coming and had never seen us argue or fight.

I was sure they were at least aware of the horrible atmosphere, particularly over the last few months so it's a bit of slap in the face to realise they had no idea at all and this must seem totally incomprehensible to them.

It could be wise to do everything possible to actually deliver the divorce papers to him while he is still in a treatment facility. This is actually the safest time this could happen. If he reacts badly and is a risk to himself or anyone else this will be witnessed by a treatment team and safety measures will need to be readdressed

Yes, definitely want to get the divorce papers served to him while he's at the clinic! The child maintenance is eye-watering but it's calculated from a standard government site (based on reduced contact).

The visit went fine for the DCs yesterday.

From my point of view, of course after Saturday's chat with the psychiatrist, H tried in every way he could to regain some control.

He gave us no indication at all about whether he was actually coming in the morning, and then when I texted he was waiting to see the dr before leaving.

He finally texted at 11.55 to say he would pick up the DC (down the road) at 12.15.

I was expecting them back at 4.30 as agreed and then at 3.30 he texted to say he would drop them at 5.45.

I texted back to ask if there was any particular reason and he said it was because he had picked them up late.

I said ok if the DC are ok with it but stick to the times in future because the DC need to know where they are.

Classic controlling behaviour.

It pissed me off of course, and also I could have made plans to do something rather than wait in for the DCs but I couldn't be bothered to fight over this and upset the DC.

I guess I just use this as a learning experience for the future in that there is no point hoping that we can be flexible with contact in the DC's interests, the times and places will have to be laid down in stone by the judge/lawyers because he's always going to mess around with them.

Re: my address - to be honest, I think it's a control thing more than anything because if he really wanted to know the address he could just drive down the street (he knows the street from discussions when things were reasonably amicable and he wanted me to move out asap) and look out for my car.

As a precaution (and on DC1's advice) I moved my car from outside yesterday when he was picking them up - there is no reason for him to drive down the street when getting them from a neutral place but you never know and the divorce papers (and his fury!) are yet to come!

I thought, and I may be wrong, that he was seeing a psychologist before his breakdown and he warned you at the time of the breakdown that you were at risk. Does he have a duty to feed this through to the clinic your husband is currently at ?

I am so sorry you are going through such a relentlessly hard time.

To be honest the address isn't important in the grand scheme of things because it'll be on all the court paperwork.

Drop offs and pick ups can be from anywhere though. For us it was school. But he'd drop them back to me at home on a Sunday night and that really fucked with my well being. Ideally back at school on the Monday would have been better.

For what it's worth I took no maintenance from him because I could afford not to and his gambling meant he couldn't have afforded to pay. And it would have given another means to control me. If you can afford to go without (maybe in return for more assets) it might be something to discuss with the lawyer.

I thought, and I may be wrong, that he was seeing a psychologist before his breakdown and he warned you at the time of the breakdown that you were at risk. Does he have a duty to feed this through to the clinic your husband is currently at ?

You are right. I considered yesterday asking this psychologist to contact the psychiatrist at the clinic. She was apparantly worried about me before the breakdown and then during.

The Dr at the clinic hasn't asked for her name and address. At the original hospital I gave them her address and the pyschologist who was seeing us for marriage counselling but I don't think they have contacter either or them (to my knowledge).

It would be useful but I get the feeling that the psychiatrist is just seeing this as an isolated pyschotic episode due to stress, and not as a personality disorder (I may be wrong).

Re: Maintenance, I can do without it but don't see why I shouldn't have it if that's what's legal. H is sure to tell everyone I want custody for the money...

I'll talk to my lawyer, still waiting for her to get back to me (I have texted and emailed her).

He will be living in the marital home, there is no reason why he should waft around there for free, you both paid for it, & you have been forced to go & rent. there is already a hefty imbalance. You will have to feed, clothe, & assume all DC clubs etc. he should not be allowed off any responsibility for their costs?
Of course he will not correlate paying with their needs, he will think it's for You.

The problem with maintenance is the variability of it, the every month aspect of it etc. In France it can be paid once as a fixed amount instead of monthly. The fixed amount can be paid in installations but it takes away the manipulation and punishment (of you) aspects.

I think they are in the process, or have just passed a law where the husband (in this case) cannot default on child "pension", so once the amount is established he can't default :o)

I had budgeted for having no maintenance, it was going to be tight, but possible.

If I get it, great, if he defaults, I will take him to court but I have family backing and won't be out on the street if he doesn't pay for a while. Plus I know where he works (where I do!) and if for some reason he didn't pay they can take it out of his salary.

ready to kill someone now, H has just sent me an email asking if I smashed ("evidently or not") a frame in the family home.

Am thinking of sending back an email expressing concern over his highly anxious state which is causing him to lock the basement of the house, accuse me of smashing things and get annoyed that I closed all the shutters to protect the house from the recent heat wave. I may suggest he talks this over with his psychiatrist as he is obviously still paranoid (without using the word paranoid).

There will be a lot of this crap ahead I fear...

Grey rock it Jamais. Just a simple No, I did not is enough.

He's baiting you and he's paranoid so getting sucked into his view of the world and trying to justify your actions or using logic will just add fuel to his unhealthy fire.

You no longer have to respond to him each and every time.

Give yourself some space and time to decide if replying to that email will achieve anything.

You don't have to engage - he is not your problem.

Any paranoia, controlling behaviour - forward it on to his psychiatrist with concerns that you are being harrassed.

As Haffdonga says, No is a complete sentence.

Don't even reply, grey rock all the way.

silence is the best response

Ignore him, and forward every single email showing his unhinged behaviour to the Psychiatrist and the clinic he's in.

I would love to ignore but of course he added the gem about me breaking stuff to the end of an email asking for info about enrolling DC1 in his new school for September (it needs to be done by Thursday this week).

Already at the interview with the psychiatrist he was muttering about his "parental authority" because I took the DC to see a psychologist without explicitly telling him.

I let myself calm down and wrote a very factual email, following the advice of the 3 psychologists I have spoken to about not giving him any opportunity to cast himself as a victim which is what he is constantly doing by implying I am breaking things or hiding things about the DCs' school reports or enrollment.

As usual, his email and mine are copied in to our friends.

I didn't refer to the broken picture directely, just gave him precisely the date I went to the family home last and why (DC picking up a book) and said I hadn't noticed anything untoward when I was there last.

He also started his email by saying he hoped I was reassured now that I had seen his psychiatrist.

I said that I was reassured to see that he was doing better and that his illness was more or less under control with a combination of being in a closed clinic, daily psychiatrist and psychologist appointments and medication but that I noted that he was going to be in the clinic for an indefinite period as he was not well enough to be released yet.

I also said that we had both heard the Dr stress the high risk of relapse within the first year, particularly if he does not take his medication. The Dr also said that H will not recognise any early warning signs of a second psychotic episode and then his DR will be on holiday from end of july to end of August and so not available.

I pointed out that I assumed that H did not want to take the risk of exposing the children to a further psychotic episode nor to expect them to take on the role of watching out for warning signs and having to call the police so if he would like to have contact with the children this summer I expect him to come up with a proposal to avoid this scenario.

I know his family are contacting him today or tomorrow to offer to take him on holiday with them, which would avoid him being alone with the DC, would be more fun for them, and would allow ME to actually switch off and not be glued to my phone and on call.

We'll see, I'm expecting him to refuse their offer so will talk to my lawyer tomorrow about what's possible legally, hopefully by that point the courts will have set up temporary measures which we can then enforce.

Don't reply. Get yourself a new email address for all your other contacts and leave that one for just him. That way you only have to look at it when you're in the right emotional and mental state. The rest of the time you can just ignore him.

And most of his messages can be ignored.

Remember - if it's not about the children you ignore.

Not About The CHildren = ignore (NATCH)

Cross posted there. You can reply about the children but ignore the other stuff.

Honestly, people are not going to be sitting at home wondering if you broke a frame or not.

I know myself how difficult it is to detach. The dynamic of an abusive relationship continues even after physical separation. But, in reality, you can't start to move forward whilst he is still in your head. And that is where he is putting himself. Issues round DC are classic ways of continuing to control ( regardless of mental health issues).

Again. Freedom Programme, even online can help so much in getting him out of your head.

Unfortunately I have no email for the clinic and I don't think his psychiatrist will accept any communication from me as if he gets outside information and refers to it, H will know he's been talking to me and won't trust him anymore (this is what my psychologist said anyway).

I agree about the control and it's just so frustrating to see how this is all going to play out but there's not much I can do apart from learn to detach.

It's a good idea about the separate email address, then I can compartmentalise a bit more.

Now that H is no longer a client of the psychologist, your lawyer can probably subpoena a full psychological report from her and you can use her as one of your expert witnesses. I would certainly try. He saw her for a while. Also the counsellor you both saw. It’s not like you didn’t try to repair your bloody awful marriage until you realized what a trap it was. Then you will need a psychiatrist who CAN diagnose a personality disorder. (His is clear as crystal - you don’t need a crystal ball.) A good one will be worth every cent. The fact is, your H loves being in the hospital talking about himself all day. I imagine the food is rather a lot nicer than in the UK or Australia and he has no responsibilities. Sounds idyllic. He’s in no rush to go home and mow lawns and rattle about his big, old house and clean up broken frames. (Bet if that’s actually real, it’s been left for you to deal with.)

Hi Jamais
You are awesome. Such a tower of strength and stability for your children.
I have name changed as my knowledge of this stuff is not something I want connected to my other posts!
Ref custody orders in France. Breaches are a police matter. So, if he is more than one month late with his maintenance you file a complaint with the police and they will take action. Likewise if he is late to bring back the children, you can contact the gendarmes who will likely immediately phone him. The gendarmes where we are are pretty good for that - my DP has a court-ordered custody agreement with his ex and he quite often has to contact them for help when he arrives to pick his child up and there's no-one there. He's never been late with payment, but it is very clear that if he was, she would send them straight round.
My DP has been to court quite a few times times now to improve his custody situation. A very important aspect is gathering evidence - to show your capabilities and capacity as a parent and to evidence his health problems and their impact on his ability to parent. Among many other things you will be asked to ask friends and family for personal statements as to how fab a mum you are (or how bad a dad he is). He will need to do the same thing, so beware the friends and family who think you are over-reacting.
As others have said, grey rock his crazy claims. Anything else will give him oxygen. We are at the stage now where my DP doesn't grace those kinds of accusations with a response. (She has undisclosed/undiagnosed mental health issues.) But, at your stage, you probably want to bear in mind that every communication you write could be read by the judge, either positively to show that you are keen to co-parent as much as your ex's health condition allows or negatively to show that you are not communicating reasonably. So your email recapping everything the psychiatrist said is fab.
As you are proposing very limited access to start with, the courts might be willing to agree to independent psych assessment if you think that is needed in order to prove your case. But that will slow everything down by months.
In terms of the pension don't feel guilty about how much your lawyer is telling you to ask for. The courts try to apply the standard rules for pension as best as they can. As far as I can see the amount determined by the judge has no relation to the amounts proposed by either party - it's all about how best they can decipher the evidence of your income and outgoings. In my DP's case I don't even know why lawyers propose a number.
Where we are, the last time my DP was in court - from initial court application to day in court was roughly 3 months. And the judgement was issued exactly one month after that.
Good luck. Stay strong. Find a good lawyer - one that is fact-orientated rather than caught up in the emotional fight! (can you tell that one was learned the hard way!)

I couldn’t agree more with PP... AND I would leave mutual friends out of the emotional/divorce equation completely from now on. That way you are not seen to be “influencing” or relying on them. If H is relying on them, they will soon become his victims anyway. Their circus and monkeys, not yours anymore!!! 🐒🤡🎡 If you are seen to be independent and managing fine without any of that crap, then win-win for you!!! Honestly best to confide in people independent of him wherever possible (difficult after a lifetime with him, I know!). Going to save you from being frustrated when they minimize your feelings and history and tell you to look after him again.

I agree, whilst he obviously did turn himself into a frenzy & get taken away by the police, I still believe he has deliberately manoeuvred this hospitalisation & is thoroughly enjoying the attention. he assumes you will eventually cave & go home to take care of him. What he doesn't know is that you are leaving anyway !!
Of course, it is highly probable that HE broke the frame when he was angrily banging about there when he first went back after being interned & locked all his precious belongins away & can't remember.

When he is banging on about parental authority, you can respond with a simple sentence along the lines of people in psychiatric clinics are not in the position to hold parental authority I assume he doesn't have to sign anything re changing schools, just do it.