LEAVING sulking H

[jamaisjedors]

I can't believe this is my third thread.

I first posted in December about my H's sulking and silent treatment - I was ready to leave then but then got persuaded to give it another go.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3448545-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking?msgid=84022238

My second thread is where everyone helped me work through what was going on, helped IRL by individual and joint counselling.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3498886-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking-part2?msgid=85957683

We have now made a joint decision to separate, and I have found somewhere to live.

I don't regret not leaving in January because I have had time to process a lot of things, confide in friends, and come to understand a lot of things about myself and H.

However, sometimes I think it would have been a lot easier to power my way out of the door whilst still fuelled with a lot of anger.

Right now I am mostly very very sad.

Today seemed like a reasonably good day, H and I managed to discuss childcare arrangements up til the school holidays quite calmly and sensibly.

We each spent time doing fun things with the DC and H is actually encouraging them to get a little excited about the new house and buying new furniture etc.

But I have just been hit by a massive wave of sadness again after overhearing part of a conversation between DC1 and a friend. DC1 was saying that he had no idea at all this was coming and had never seen us argue or fight.

I was sure they were at least aware of the horrible atmosphere, particularly over the last few months so it's a bit of slap in the face to realise they had no idea at all and this must seem totally incomprehensible to them.

Just an observation - when I left my seriously toxic husband I was significantly stung on the way out. I was weak at that point - after years of abuse - and I was heartbroken. It was like one final hurrah to pump poison into me to make sure I couldn't exist without him. I doubt it was intentional iyswim.

You have to be ruthless jamais

Contrary to what you think - I think that you have some excellent reasons for not allowing unsupervised, overnight contact with the kids

• when he is released from the clinic it is not known whether your H will stick to his treatment plan and take his medication. So a period of stability before he has overnight responsibility for children is totally reasonable.
• his psychiatrist has told you that he is going on holiday when H is released. Therefore H will not have rapid access to his own care team if there are problems - therefore another good reason not to change the status quo by adding overnight visits until the psych returns.

If you wanted to offer something - a compromise would be to allow a longer visit on condition that his family or other friends are there to supervise 24/7. Otherwise I would stick to the daytime visits only - therefore you are not denying access.

With the best will in the world your H's psychiatrist is never going to give you what you want and confront your H and validate you. He is treating your H and the treatment programme relies on your H trusting him unless he is an immediate danger. You need to think of the psychiatrist not as a neutral party or judge but more akin to your H's lawyer - H is the psych's patient and the psych is working for him and not you and not the children. This is where is gets tricky as your H's interests may be totally different to yours and the children's' interests.

One thing that I do find very interesting is that the psych had not been told the full story about the divorce and psychotic episode by H. This means that his thoughts about access etc. are based on incomplete and incorrect information. Remember again - the psych works for your H!

also with regard to these people telling you to be nice.
NO ONE knows what you know, they cannot possibly understand. NOONE knows what we have lived with, the daily relentless put-downs, the dominance, the selfishness, the deliberate sulking, the walking on broken glass, the shudder when he came home, the deflecting to protect the DC, every day under his thrall.
So ignore their magnanimous ignorance.

You are one strong woman!

Just imagine this scenario. You no longer want to be married to him, you tell him and he is upset but accepts it. You then move out with the kids to a new place, and arrange access to the kids between you. Access arrangements work, you and he are a bit awkward for a bit, but everyone gets on with their lives.

This is what HE has not allowed to happen. HE is still controlling you and the kids - everyone is dancing to HIS tune. Instead the consequences of HIS behaviour should be you cutting off contact completely and HIM working his ass off to prove that he deserves to see his kids by becoming a trustworthy human being and father.

Would it be possible for you and the kids to go away for a few weeks? This might give you the space to get your head out of the toxic fog he has drowned you in.

If he's picking the kids up from somewhere nearby, and dropping them back there, he will find your house eventually. He wants this information very badly and he will get it if you keep helping him like this.

Hey jemais...

So much good advice... Just want to add... Try to spend a little time each day to remove your mind from all the intracacies of the detail of what you are negotiating. Trust your insinct always, and be brave to support your children to decide to not see dad if he is being wierd. Simple as that. Document it each and every time.

Also, don't forget to enjoy that you DID leave him. it is all out in the open, you have a healthy open dialogue with your kids. WELL DONE.
The legal journey will take its course.... Just try to live your lives still in and around it all. Otherwise.... It's still your husband's show, and your all playing a role given by him
Must love xx

Jamais, I have given this bit of unsolicited advice a bit of thought too. The summer holidays are coming up and now might be an appropriate time to wrap your head around this... You know that your kids are not stupid. They love you and their dad. They are capable of loving both of you as flawed adults. (There’s a shock with today’s publicity about parenting...) My parents both had personality disorders, and were both dangerous. I knew exactly what was going on from a very early age. Minimizing or covering up for their father’s illness or behaviour isn’t going to help them or earn their respect. It is in their best interests for their safety and to earn their trust and respect that you tell them the truth (In an age-appropriate manner) about their father’s mental illness and the long-term ramifications for them. (Ene If it’s painful or frightening, it will earn their trust in the long-run!) The behaviours modeled recently -(Paranoia/delusions/lying/gaslighting/potentially stalking, etc) will come to mind. Your kids will know that you tried to build them a stable home with their father, but it simply wasn’t feasible, and it was safer for you all to move out. They will form their own decisions based on open dialogue. Please don’t dumb this down in the typically English way!!! Show them that they can ask you questions and that you trust them enough to answer them. Let them know that they don’t need to protect you or your feelings.

I believe more damage was done to me and my siblings by well-meaning adults lying than by the actual toxic environment.

Your line of thinking was prevalent: the parent-child relationship had to be protected above all. Everything was geared towards a long term future tight relationship with the dodgy parent(s). It was soooo important even as all the adults themselves backed away slowly from dodgy parent(s)! As the crazy gradually revealed its face to the world during divorce, we were being pushed towards it, plans being made to keep us feeling bound.

Remember all those hours you spent wishing DH would have an epiphany and be nice to you? All you had to do was manage the situation properly, behave right, say the right things, careful careful? You are still doing that, though not as much. Except now you are doing by proxy with the children instead of yourself.

Let them see it. Stop trying to plan a relationship with him and them. Teach them how to see and react to his crazy. Let them know they have the right have to no/limited paternal relationship one day if that's what they want and you will not think badly of them.

Also, friends find it hard to admit to themselves that all this shit was going on. It makes them feel awful that they didn't see it (or that they ignored what they now see as obvious red flags). It's much more comforting for them to see it as a blip or exaggerated or more two-sided. Don't expect too much reality checking from them. They've got no skin in the game. They have nothing to lose (and keep peace of mind) by pretending to themselves there wasn't any real abuse and isn't any real risk. Consider this when hearing their opinion.

TLDR: Stop trying to manage STBX into being the future dad you want him to be. Stop trying to manipulate the children into not noticing their dad is a paranoid bloke who abused their mum, culminating (to date) in him being taken away by police to a mental hospital for an extended period.

They have everything as long as they have you, Jamais. Really. You're really, really great!

Towel said it better than I did.

So did Mix.
Fuck being nice.

Good advice, I have been honest with the DC as much as possible although I had a wobble the other day when school called to tell me that DC1 was not scared of his dad but well aware that I was scared of him and that it was stressing him out.

I have told them slowly and gradually about the paranoia (I used the word, which unfortunately DC1 repeated back to his dad on the phone, who then went nuts with him...) etc.

I talked to them again yesterday about my visit to his doctor. I told them that Dad is still displaying some paranoid behaviour (DC1 pointed out some that his dad told him about on the phone too). I said the dr feels the DC are safe with him while their dad is taking his medication but that if he stops taking it he could have another psychotic episode.

They already know to text me or tell me if there is any weird behaviour when they are with him or speaking to him (which they have so far).

I have not hidden that he was in a psychiatric hospital and now in a psychiatric clinic and they know what he is doing day to day there from what their dad says and the psychologist they saw this week also talked to them about that.

She prepared them for the fact that dad would need to rest a lot and it would take him a long time to be back to normal, if ever.

They reaffirmed that they were happy to do 50/50 with dad but she pointed out that that would probably not be happening in September, and I have said that again now that I've seen the psychiatrist.

I have already told them I don't want them doing overnights with their dad with noone else around because I don't want them to take the responsibility of having to call an ambulance and the police.

You are right now, I now need to ignore friends' advice and just go with what my lawyer is suggesting.

H is going to go absolutely crazy when he gets the divorce proposal - my lawyer has asked for full custody for me, visits restricted to every other weekend and during the day time for H, and a sizeable sum of maintenance for the DC plus rent on the house we own and which he is living in.

I know exactly what he will say, I'm going for custody because I want the money.

I had a good chat with H's sister this afternoon, she has been through similar with her ex and knows just how frustrating it is to be trapped by the legal system and trying to defend yourself and your child(ren).

Please be careful about sharing legal stuff with his sister. Even if she is an ally, it might find it’s way back to him somehow (via parents, etc...)

H is going to go absolutely crazy when he gets the divorce proposal

He may well do so - after all he is a man currently in a psychiatric clinic, who has lied to his psychiatrist and who only recently had a psychotic break.

But you are not responsible for his behaviour. You are responsible for yours, and the safety and well-being of your mutual children.

And this is incredibly early days in his illness and their understanding of it.

Sadly you can't hide his illness and behaviour from them, and telling them about it isn't badmouthing him either. In fact the fact he is ill is probably a blessing as you were splitting up anyway and then you would be having to tell them you were doing it because he wasn't a nice person, at least now you can do it because he is unwell.

the fact he is ill is probably a blessing as you were splitting up anyway and then you would be having to tell them you were doing it because he wasn't a nice person, at least now you can do it because he is unwell.

Actually his mum's first reaction was "oh, she's leaving him now he's sick". Luckily my SIL put a stop to that and said that things had been very bad for me for a long time and I was leaving because of that and that his "sickness" was only revealed once it was clear I was definitely leaving.

Re legal stuff, I have already told H's family I will be asking for full custody initially and they have agreed it is wise because they are worried about him having the children alone.

I thought it better to tell them upfront, as I have told the friends too, so they don't buy into H's "she is a manipulative grasping bitch" story, I "put my story out there first" (inspired by Alicia!) rather than try to explain afterwards.

I have nothing to hide in that I am trying to protect the children and it is better if everyone has heard that so that there is no doubt about it.

Also, don't forget to enjoy that you DID leave him. it is all out in the open, you have a healthy open dialogue with your kids.

I am trying to remember this everyday and keep forcing myself to do things he wouldn't approve of - leaving the washing up - going out to events - turning the music up loud - staying in pjs all morning... I get reminders of having made the right decision every hour of the day!!!

Plus I am turning on its head the strain of "doing it all" into remembering that I won't always have my DC with me all the time and that this is precious time not to be wished away.

Good job I'm an optimist!!!!

The divorce papers may make him have another break down ?
I suppose you need to tell DC when this actually happens, as they may feel you are kicking him when he's down, whereas you can say he knew it was happening & at least he is somewhere he has support?

No, you aren't leaving him 'now he is ill', he always was ill, always will be ill and you don't have to live with someone like that it.

It isn't your job to be his emotional crutch/punchbag. And neither is it the children's job.

Yes it is a blessing that he has not only been ill, but that his illness has been recognised, diagnosed and he is receiving treatment. It gives you SO much more legal and moral strength in the coming discussions about the future. You could have found yourself fighting this fight with a mentally unstable ex who hadn't been picked up by the police or treated by a psychiatrist and struggling to prove to anyone that he was a risk.

As it is, you've been coping alone for years with an unstable partner doing a great job for your dcs. You are a properly powerful woman.

As an aside, I know someone who's first symptoms of psychosis were becoming extremely religious. Friends and family (who were also religious) didn't realise that this was not necessarily a positive sign and the situation got quite severe before the person had any treatment. Much better to know this is a sign of a real problem.

IME, which is considerable, psychiatrists and other MH professionals, particularly those based in hospital, have little or no interest in the wellbeing of the families of patients. Families are simply not their concern. They are concentrating on the patient and the patient's perceptions and opinions.
This makes life very stressful and difficult for partners and children who have been subjected to manipulation/control/abuse.

You are a properly powerful woman.

In all honesty you pay your lawyer so take her advice. French family courts are for the most part not bad. UK justice and healthcare are not the same as in France.

You are keeping your kids informed and that's important. All you can really do is give them as many tools as possible to deal with the situation and him.

Having someone who is not you to talk to is also good. My kids always wanted to protect me too. Which is not particularly helpful but understandable.

If you can find some reading material on the subject for them that's also very powerful.

My kids were blown away by the out of the fog site. But I'm not if it's applicable to your situation.

I will look the FOG site up now, I didn't know it.

Thanks.

Hope everything went well and the kids' visit to H passed off without H creating any new drama

I hope the kids visit went well today, you are doing everything you can to protect them AND to be fair to him which you have done from your first thread.
Do not forget yourself in all that, take care of yourself and keep doing what makes you feel good

OP I've caught up with your threads and would just like to say I think you are a brilliant Mum. Your boys are lucky to have you.. it must be infuriating to have to be the one to act correctly and calmly when that is NOT the case with your DH!

Hang in there and good luck with this transition xx