Husband is low-level subtly abusive, but also really lovely

[TeamRafael]

I just don't know what to do. I'm tired and confused and my health is suffering.

My husband is so lovely a lot of the time. He is massively supportive of anything I want to do: encourages me to pursue hobbies, meet friends, study, etc. When I was having a hard time at work, he was happy for me to leave to set up my own business, even though it meant we suffered financially and both had to really tighten our belts - he didn't complain once and just kept encouraging me and championing me on. He listens when I'm upset and offers advice. He's always on my side. When I had surgery, he looked after me, did all the cooking, housework, changing my dressings, washed my hair, etc., hugged me when I cried.

We get on really well: we're like the best of friends. We enjoy holidays together, days out, love our pets. We laugh at the same jokes, make each other laugh. He's funny and he's generous. He likes my family and they like him.

But also, there's this:

He very subtly gaslights me. He (not so subtly) stonewalls me. He's dishonest. There's no intimacy anymore.

I've read this forum on and off for a few years, and I've posted several times under various user names. I've read the Lundy Bancroft book, so I recognise the above behaviours.

If I want to discuss an issue in our relationship or anything slightly uncomfortable, he gets irritable or refuses to listen or changes the subject or answers my question with an unrelated question if I bring something up he doesn't want to discuss. He walks out the room or waits for me to shut up in silence if I say something he doesn't want to talk about.

He likes to do things that he knows irritate me, then if I ask him not to do it, he'll trivialise it or say I've never mentioned it before, even if it's something I've brought up many times. He messes with my things when I'm not around: moves them, knocks them over, etc. Then when I ask him about it, he denies he's touched them. He questions my interpretation of events and tells me I've got things wrong or misunderstood, or I'm imagining things, and looks at me like I'm crazy. He makes out things I bring up are irrelevant or trivial, or he'll deny what I'm saying. His actions or his facial expressions always tell me a completely different story to what comes out of his mouth, e.g. I can see irritation flit across his face when I step out of my 'place' or call him out on his behaviour, before he straightens his face and tells me I'm wrong.

He lies about small things. Never big lies; just really weird small things, to the point where I don't really trust anything he says. E.g. stupid things like he'll say he has two baths a day where I know he has one bath a day. Or he'll say he never eats chocolate when I've seen him eating chocolate just the day before. Or he'll tell me that he's done x task round the house when he hasn't. He always likes to paint himself as this great guy, so he just fibs to make sure he fits that narrative.

I very much get the impression he considers himself to be more important than me and that his time is more important than mine. I honestly have hundreds of examples of his lies, gaslighting, stonewalling behaviour, but I'm conscious of how long this post is already.

This is all at the same time as him being lovely. So it's not like he's horrible for a few days and then lovely for a bit. He can gaslight or stonewall me one minute and be really nice the next minute, so I'm constantly wrong footed.

There's nothing to stop me leaving; I'm not stuck. We never had children, I've always worked, I've got my own pension, we've got savings and there's equity in the house. I could leave tomorrow and be a bit skint but ok. He's not financially abusive or anything (I look after all our money). But it's the lovely side of him that I can't get my head around. It's hard to leave that person. And also, because he denies everything, I'm always doubting myself and feeling like I'm crazy or too sensitive. It would almost be easier if he was out-and-out abusive and not so subtle about it. Then I'd have a definite reason to go. But the lovely side of him keeps stopping me. Also, I don't have many friends, my family aren't close, and I don't have children. I'd be alone.

Leave the arsehole and find yourself again OP. You'll be amazed at how fabulous you are when you don't have the oppression from your H forcing you to change your behaviour.

I say this from experience. My exH behaved in an almost identical manner and one day I just mustered up the courage to tell him to leave. It took 2 weeks for him to actually leave, he thought I'd change my mind. But the day he did.... Best day ever.

Op, thank you for posting this. I have been separated years and sometimes I reflect on my marriage and doubt what happened.

Then I see this post and also updates from CatelynStark and another20 and realise I relate so strongly to the descriptions.

I would recommend that you keep a journal, write the incidents down. It will just highlight how real this is.

I thought Ex was a mild mannered man, so did everyone else but underneath he was seething and held me in contempt. Everything was about his needs and there was always an agenda. Ex is intelligent and very practiced at this behaviour.

The gaslighting was extreme (but became normal for me!) I even considered recording our conversations or to have cameras at home..once I realised how far I had come from normal I knew I had to leave.
The gaslighting could be over insignificant events that if you said it to outsiders they would consider it petty but when your partner lies to you to distort your reality it isn't trivial.

I would advise a quiet exit, I thought I would be open with Ex, assumed he must hate me so wanted to let me go, but his reaction was extremely vengeful. I never thought it was possible and neither did family. Once the mask dropped it was scary.

Ex was I believe a covert narcisstic who are usually very successful in the corporate world..most dangerous type as no one will believe you. Everything Ex did to be nice had a selfish motivation..some times it was so he could tell people what a wonderful husband he was.
He had an very abusive mother and emotional distant father but I think genetics also play a part.

Once your eyes are open it's hard to tolerate it so I think it's the beginning of the end.

Yes lifebegins advice is critical - if you think you have seen nasty already you have no idea how vicious these types go once crossed - so do not give him an inkling what you might consider - as he will just punish you in the most vile way.

I would advise a quiet exit, I thought I would be open with Ex, assumed he must hate me so wanted to let me go, but his reaction was extremely vengeful. I never thought it was possible and neither did family. Once the mask dropped it was scary.

It's a joint house, yes. And we do have joint finances but I work and have savings in my own name & pension. There's equity in the house as well. I wouldn't want to stay there - I imagine he would want to though.

Then he can buy you out. But before you give up the house, think about why. If it's out of budget, too inconvenient for work, or you've always just hated it, that's one thing. BUT if it's solely because of 'bad mojo' (ie painful memories, 'bad vibe', etc) think carefully about whether or not you'd be able to erase' that with paint, new furnishings, etc. If not, then let him buy you out. Just do it all through a solicitor. Valuation and buy out amount can be more complex than one realizes.

I only say about keeping the house because when I kicked my ex out, I had the 'memory thing' of him sitting 'in that chair over there' and saying 'that terrible thing', but luckily was able to buy new furniture, pictures, bed linens, etc (thanks Mum and Dad!) and it 'banished' his presence for me.

Not much to add but my heart goes out to you OP. Wondering if I'm going through a similar thing to you but only recently worked it out.

Hi OP. You sound so brave. I’m watching this thread as the tips on how to leave (what to say etc) are good. I think my H has Aspergers but essentially he does all the things you describe too. I’m making an exit plan but what I’m most nervous about is having that ‘chat’.
I’m also nervous about being alone (even though I won’t be as have DC) but I think mainly I’d be much happier.

I think the advice of keeping a diary of his behaviour and getting ducks in a row is good.

All the best of luck OP

After leaving someone like this... I can say confidently that even on my loneliest days, being single is still a thousand times better than being with someone like that.
Don't underestimate how much damage has been done to you either, and ideally seek counselling to get over the damage to your self esteem.

@iflyaway - thanks - I am worried about that and know going to counselling myself is something I definitely need to do. Just need to able to afford it financially.

Op I am a firm believer that knowledge is power. Not only are you aware of this behaviour and that it's not right, but you now have the opportunity to get knowledge / put plans in place about what you can do next. I have made the mistake of not having a specific plan as I naively thought that he would be understanding (it has been an incredibly tough two years, so don't understand why this is a surprise) and for us come to a practical, mutual beneficial decision. I was really wrong.

Thank you to all of you who posted. I've read every post and taken your comments on board. I really appreciate you all taking the time to share your own experiences and to offer advice. I'll come back periodically and let you all know how I get on.

Finally I'll quickly address Aquilla who said: stonewalling and gaslighting only exist on Mumsnet - I chose not to dignify this comment with a response yesterday as it was just a silly thing to say. However, a few people have posted on this thread to say they're in similar situations to me, so for them, for avoidance of all doubt: gaslighting and stonewalling are well known terms used by, for example, Lundy Bancroft on his book about abuse, 'Why does he do that?'. They are also used on various websites including Psychology Today, National Domestic Hotline, Relate and Women's Aid, as well as various news articles from sources such as the BBC. Just Google the terms and numerous sites come up in the results (not just mumsnet).

@TeamRafeal thank you for coming back and responding. Best wishes for whatever you decide to do and yes, please do let us know how you get on.

chaosisaladder: I work in mental health and I've met a few people like this. Sociopaths. I would leave, OP.

^^This.

Your posts are chilling OP. The moving stuff and denying it is particularly creepy. It says a lot about him and his attitude towards you. There is no positive interpretation of such sinister gaslighting (yep, it exists).

team I left my very similar husband 8 months ago. I wanted to reply to something you said upthread about being alone. I thought this and that was one reason I stuck it out for so long. I thought everyone loved my husband and would not understand why I was leaving.
Turns out that was bollocks. Most of my very close friends and family had concerns about him and his behaviour. The people that didn't quickly came round when I told them how things were. I wish I had known years ago how much I could rely on my friends.

It's been very hard though, it's only been the past couple of months I've started to feel like I can think straight again.

If you do leave be prepared for him to behave badly. He will escalate his control and aim to manipulate to protect his self image. This could mean lying about you to friends and family to make it look like all your fault. Just be prepared for that.

Op ive come back to this again - I wanted to say lack of intimacy is a form of control - I read this somewhere after my own marriage broke down when x had an affair.

I have done a lot of soul searching since this happened 4 years ago mainly as a result of being completely shafted by x in the divorce process and then by my legal team representing me - being under MH support twice during this period, having counselling and just trying to claw my way out of the mess I’m in! Supporting 2 kids pretty much single handedly emotionally and financially despite x having regular contact. I haven’t got out of bed the last 3 days - this is how low I am currently

I always thought our marriage problems were mainly down to me as I had depression - we also went through IVF over 2/3 years to conceive and I thought both of us being prodded and poked had an impact on our sex life - x also had own business which was stressful - twins one of which was quite a “challenging” child!

But I thought our marriage was pretty normal - replicated both parents marriages really - bit of money problems here and there - not enough help from x sometimes - issues with yes forgetting to tell me stuff mainly in relation to work but as I was SAHM business came first! But we also had a good life - nice home, holidays etc did lots of family stuff. X is well regarded in his industry I was pretty content mostly I think.

I’m not really sure why I’m telling you all this - I don’t necessarily disagree with anything anyone else has said and I saw the true colours some would say when I filed for divorce.

BUt with depression our sense of self is not good - our self esteem and boundaries are a bit skewed - although depression can be a symptom of an abusive marriage I’m not sure if it’s fair to say it’s caused by an abusive marriage especially such as yours/ mine where it is low level!

You say your DH parents are emotionally abusive - this will go a long way to explaining his behaviour - he will have learnt traits from copying them - maybe some of what he displays with you is how he learnt either to cope with his childhood or to take some form of revenge on them for not validating his existence in a loving way!

Does he know you think he is abusive ? Some on here have said it’s irrelevant and that He May become worse if you confront him - this could be true. Has there been any change to your circumstances any triggers is there a pattern to his behaviour- does something happen with him that then effects how he behaves with you?

YOu may not wish to go into any of this - you may have already made up your own mind - I was so scared of being left or leaving that I pretty much tolerated what went on - x was also scared of being left until he found somewhere else to go - our biggest failing not having the scary talks - the talks that rock the boat - but the boat rocked anyway - his dm died suddenly - OW in wings - he was vulnerable and she pounced - he thought we had nothing left anymore - but I think he realised deep down he got this wrong - but he crossed the line - couldn’t go back and had to maintain his stance that I’m the bitter twisted ex wife.

I can live with this apart from what he’s put the kids through - this I can’t forgive but I have to deal with it somehow and let it go.

I think what I’m trying to say is had I worked on myself a bit more - read some of the stuff ive read since about boundaries etc and not been so scared maybe I could have dealt with some of the stuff differently. Whether this would have made any difference who knows - I’ve been reading the other thread on here with the partner with crippling self hatred and she too has been told to leave him due to his behaviour - he has a responsibility to fix himself - we all have a responsibility to fix ourselves but sometimes we need to be shown how - we seem to have got to a stage where we are saying your broken - not my problem - off you go - but maybe we are a bit broken too -

IM not sure if any of this makes sense - I feel pretty broken right now myself - I want to fix myself I’m doing all the right things - but it feels like not much makes any difference and everyone keeps saying to me nah you’re too broken to be fixed!

In also trying to help someone else I think I’ve made a discovery about my own MH which has pretty much shocked me if I’m honest but also explains a lot and makes sense re DS- I kept my depression under wraps for so long now I’ve got to see if I’m brave enough to deal with this

Good luck with whatever you decide - I would suggest some counselling too for yourself

Greenberet you have been through an awful lot but it looks like you are still swirling around in the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) - these are unhealthy drivers and are NEVER a reason to do something - they are all about meeting someone else’s needs (perceived?) and expectations not your own.

With the depression it maybe a question of chicken and egg - but an uncooperative, unloving, unsupportive, subtly sabotaging “partner” will drain your emotional and physical energy over time. I had developed increasingly close depressions - so blamed myself for the misery in our home - until someone in here pointed out that I was in a no win situation and that if I or he left then the depressions would miraculously disappear - and that is exactly what happened. I don’t know if you have the opportunity to seek quality therapy to restore your MH?

Op, I went to counselling when I knew something was wrong in our marriage. It there that I learnt about boundaries and in reflection it was the beginning of the end as Ex could see I had changed and he knew I saw through him. This was his biggest fear and he started to ramp up his behaviour. I didn't know then but he started to smear me and exclude me from his "new life"...he also started to behave badly in front of my friends and family as he knew it no longer mattered.
What do you know about his Exs?
Ex took a scorched earth approach to the break up which felt counter intuitive to me but now it makes perfect sense.
He is not in contact with anyone who knows me so there is no one who will disprove his version of our marriage..

All the divorce documentation which was so deceitful now makes sense as it will prove he was the victim.

I naively thought we were just trying to end a marriage without too much hurt whereas he saw it as the backstory for his new life.

I can't stress how quickly his turn around happened so just want to highlight it as it shocked me to the core.

Another20 - I saw a link to Fog recently thought it was on here but not - what you have said pretty much hit home - I have a fear of not being able to cope, a fear that x would destroy me emotionally and financially - coupled with how he manipulated divorce process and how I came out feeling abused by solicitor, barrister and then judge financially but also In relation to my MH - I’m pretty close. No one believes me!

Obligation - I have a huge obligation to my kids - again made so much harder by x - currently I’m having to face moving 200 miles away because I can’t afford to live where I am - kids are about to do a levels - everything could go tits up

Guilt - guilt I’ve let my kids down - I’m blubbing now - guilt I’ve put them through hell the last four years - because I wasn’t strong enough to keep My emotions under wraps - they’ve seen me so angry - guilt for giving them a shite of a father

Coupled with this I have issues going on with my DF - that could possibly also link in with fog

IVE just googled it - the first thing I see is emotional blackmail - the extent to which the x emotionally blackmails the kids has been so severe he was referred to Ss by my MH support worker as she was concerned some of his behaviour was odd - but they were too old - I have been concerned about this that I have wanted to go to the police for a long time - but I haven’t as I didn’t want to put the kids through this - but he has no qualms in reporting me to them for harassment

If they had been younger I’ve no doubt cafcass/ Ss would have been involved - I’m not sure if this makes them lucky/ unlucky but he would have played a nasty game here too.TT

Funnily enough my MH was getting better just before his affair - I was looking to coming off medication - whether this was true or not I cannot say right now because I’m mentally fucked -

Sorry op for posting so much on here but maybe this actually tells you everything you need to know - maybe right now I’m trying to minimise everything tostop myself going into complete breakdown - I really don’t know I’m go8ng to up on fog

greenberet: Sorry op for posting so much on here please keep posting; if the thread helps others then that can only be a good thing. For me, it helps to read about others' experiences. It makes me feel less alone.

Would agree about the amicable thing, even the most amicable guys can turn into complete arses if they think they are being ‘dumped’ .

Does he acknowledge that his parents were abusive?

Does he acknowledge that his parents were abusive?

Hmm, kind of. It was his dad who was emotionally abusive to his mum. He blames his mum for not leaving, but whereas he'll call his dad "moody" that's as far as he'll acknowledge abuse. He does acknowledge his parents' marriage is dreadful though, and says they should never have had children.

Sorry to those who have posted today that I've not replied much. I've woken up today feeling very very low, and I recognise the warning signs. I am reading all your posts, however, and I'm very grateful to you all.

I'll probably park this thread for a little while and come back to it another time, and go away to do some self care - meditation, read a book, a walk outside, etc.

Thanks again

Best wishes to you Team.

Remember, it's your timetable, not ours. You will do what's best for you when the time is right to do it.

Best wishes Team

I echo what across said. Make your decision in your own time. I haven't read the full thread so not sure how old he is, how long he's been like it (from the start or not) or how long you've been together.
It is just possible if he's not always been like it it's gradually become a habit, and he doesn't click somehow what it's doing to you.
The trouble is people rarely change when they get to a certain age. I think it's the not knowing how much of it (if any) is deliberate, and if you knew it was you would have your answer. You won't know that unless you wait a while longer, and observe what he's doing and try yo gain the insight you need.

If you are modifying your behaviour to not irritate/ upset/annoy him then you are not being you. And if you have to live much of your life in this anxious state of not doing or saying the wrong thing then eventually it will be seriously detrimental to your health, anxiety or depression possibly, or both.
When he is being 'lovely' aren't you thinking 'what brought this on?' Or 'I wonder how long THIS will last' - you could tell him you are leaving him which might magic a change of behaviour but you will never know when it might return.
I would think the relief will be immense if you leave him.