Husband is low-level subtly abusive, but also really lovely

[TeamRafael]

I just don't know what to do. I'm tired and confused and my health is suffering.

My husband is so lovely a lot of the time. He is massively supportive of anything I want to do: encourages me to pursue hobbies, meet friends, study, etc. When I was having a hard time at work, he was happy for me to leave to set up my own business, even though it meant we suffered financially and both had to really tighten our belts - he didn't complain once and just kept encouraging me and championing me on. He listens when I'm upset and offers advice. He's always on my side. When I had surgery, he looked after me, did all the cooking, housework, changing my dressings, washed my hair, etc., hugged me when I cried.

We get on really well: we're like the best of friends. We enjoy holidays together, days out, love our pets. We laugh at the same jokes, make each other laugh. He's funny and he's generous. He likes my family and they like him.

But also, there's this:

He very subtly gaslights me. He (not so subtly) stonewalls me. He's dishonest. There's no intimacy anymore.

I've read this forum on and off for a few years, and I've posted several times under various user names. I've read the Lundy Bancroft book, so I recognise the above behaviours.

If I want to discuss an issue in our relationship or anything slightly uncomfortable, he gets irritable or refuses to listen or changes the subject or answers my question with an unrelated question if I bring something up he doesn't want to discuss. He walks out the room or waits for me to shut up in silence if I say something he doesn't want to talk about.

He likes to do things that he knows irritate me, then if I ask him not to do it, he'll trivialise it or say I've never mentioned it before, even if it's something I've brought up many times. He messes with my things when I'm not around: moves them, knocks them over, etc. Then when I ask him about it, he denies he's touched them. He questions my interpretation of events and tells me I've got things wrong or misunderstood, or I'm imagining things, and looks at me like I'm crazy. He makes out things I bring up are irrelevant or trivial, or he'll deny what I'm saying. His actions or his facial expressions always tell me a completely different story to what comes out of his mouth, e.g. I can see irritation flit across his face when I step out of my 'place' or call him out on his behaviour, before he straightens his face and tells me I'm wrong.

He lies about small things. Never big lies; just really weird small things, to the point where I don't really trust anything he says. E.g. stupid things like he'll say he has two baths a day where I know he has one bath a day. Or he'll say he never eats chocolate when I've seen him eating chocolate just the day before. Or he'll tell me that he's done x task round the house when he hasn't. He always likes to paint himself as this great guy, so he just fibs to make sure he fits that narrative.

I very much get the impression he considers himself to be more important than me and that his time is more important than mine. I honestly have hundreds of examples of his lies, gaslighting, stonewalling behaviour, but I'm conscious of how long this post is already.

This is all at the same time as him being lovely. So it's not like he's horrible for a few days and then lovely for a bit. He can gaslight or stonewall me one minute and be really nice the next minute, so I'm constantly wrong footed.

There's nothing to stop me leaving; I'm not stuck. We never had children, I've always worked, I've got my own pension, we've got savings and there's equity in the house. I could leave tomorrow and be a bit skint but ok. He's not financially abusive or anything (I look after all our money). But it's the lovely side of him that I can't get my head around. It's hard to leave that person. And also, because he denies everything, I'm always doubting myself and feeling like I'm crazy or too sensitive. It would almost be easier if he was out-and-out abusive and not so subtle about it. Then I'd have a definite reason to go. But the lovely side of him keeps stopping me. Also, I don't have many friends, my family aren't close, and I don't have children. I'd be alone.

He always claimed to have forgotten things we agreed on, or tried to tell me that I was misremembering.

The number of discussions me and ex had about things that we then agreed a course of action only for me to go ahead and action them then have him ask what I was doing and why because we hadn't decided on anything... Then he'd accuse me of never consulting him.

I ended up thinking I was going mad, and he encouraged that. So much so I ended up as an outpatient at a psychiatric hospital.

Ironically, the treatment saved me, as it gave me the mental strength I need to leave!

OP, I got a terrible feeling when I read your OP. Do you want help to leave or reassurance it's ok? It's not btw.

I could of wrote this.
Me and DP have An amazing, playful, happy relationship in general.

But there is no intimacy. We ignore it because it would hurt too much to leave. He also tells small lies, he 'forgets' to mention when I'm coming to a do with him, he forgets to tell me big things that happen...

Friends would probably think we live separate by the way he texts them, always 'I' or 'me',

Discussing our problems or anything like it is always a huge deal, has only ever happened theee or four times, usually something sets it off like finding out the other lied or something and then we promise to talk, and be open with eachother always, but then it goes back to normal. It kills me that we don't connect on a deeper level? Yet we're together years, and have a generally fun happy relationship. What is this about?

I could have written ur post op

Does he have to get his own way ?
Does he irritate himself at times (and ur thinking here we go) and he will somehow try and blame u, then say he didn't want to fight ?

It's not low level or subtle. It is manipulative and controlling. You say he thinks he is superior to you. He may well suffer with some sort of personality disorder. It sounds very tiring and to be honest, I couldn't go on living with someone like that. To what end? Any nice aspects of his character are far outweighed by the fact that he lies, gaslights and shuts you down. I'd seriously ask myself why I was sticking around if I were you.

Once you get out of this toxic relationship you'll wonder why you stayed in it so long.

OP, I got a terrible feeling when I read your OP. Do you want help to leave or reassurance it's ok?

I think I'm at the point of having one eye on the door. And I've honestly been agonising over whether it really is that bad. Say if I said to him, I want to separate and it's because I think you're abusive; you do things like put my laundry in the wrong drawers so I can't find it and I think it's deliberate, and that time you knocked my makeup onto the floor and then denied it - and basically lay out why I think he's abusive - then he'd just look incredulous (I can picture his facial expression right now) and deny or defend every single thing.

Because none of it can be proven. He hasn't hit me, he hasn't called me names, he isn't jealous, he doesn't shout or lose his temper. It's all clever and subtle and fine quietly.

And then he'd leave me doubting myself. I'm throwing away this 20-year relationship for these little things?? Because that's what he always does to me whenever i try to discuss it with him. He's articulate and clever and can think on his feet.

OMG OP, reading this and the many other P's experiences takes me right back to the relationship I was in with an abuser, for years and years. At the end of it I had depression and anxiety, PTSD, and I had no idea who I was or what I even wanted out of my life. I realised that I didn't have the first clue how many of those years had been total lies, and I didn't even know what my life had really been. It's taken me a decade to recover. I lost the best years of my life. Get out now OP, don't hesitate.

It's like living with someone who continually kicks you in the shin, but then brings you the ice pack to 'make it better', as if that makes up for kicking you in the first place!!!!!! It does NOT, but you have been conditioned to believe that it does.

Stop for a moment and realize that all the 'good' things he does you can get from other people. Companionship, encouragement, support, fun. These are all things that friends and family can give you and they're pretty much a phone call or a text away. You may be surprised at how much less encouragement and support you need when you aren't living with someone who is tearing you down at every turn. And you also may be surprised at how your social circle widens once he's not around to take up your time.

All the bad things will disappear from your life if you leave/kick him out. You will live in a home filled with peace and quiet, one in which your things don't get knocked over or messed with (so fucking disrespectful!!!!). One in which you will be able to do and say exactly what you want without criticism, accusations, undermining, or gaslighting.

I had one like this. I eventually came to the conclusion that the lovely bits were behaviours he had learned and copied from others in order to make people think he was a really nice person but he never really felt it deep down. Underneath the cheery, helpful persona was a huge ego and a temper that would burst out of him when slightly challenged but it was all channelled into sulking, gaslighting me and yes, the snarling as if he hated me.

All very tiresome and has really put me off men for life. This was 10 years ago and I’ve not had a relationship since. My life is so much more peaceful now.

I think you are so used to it you find it half normal, when in fact it's highly dysfunctional and dangerous, you say these little things, to me what he does is really bloody scary and unhinged, I couldn't carry on living like that.

I think once you get away you will realise how utterly crazy this is, it's not normal, not healthy and dangerous, I can't say any more than that, you need to get away from him, he's not right.

Don't care how clever he is, you are not stupid, what you describe is mental, mental torture towards you.

@Aquilla, you're obviously one of the lucky ones who has never experienced gaslighting or stonewalling then. I can assure you that I experienced it long before I ever heard of MN. How dare you imply that OP and the others on here who have, sadly, experienced these behaviors are liars by saying

You do realise there's no such thing? And by the way, stonewalling and gaslighting only exist on Mumsnet

Please refrain from posting if you have only unpleasant things to say.

Agreed @CatelynStark. It's a much better place to be.

I very much get the impression he considers himself to be more important than me and that his time is more important than mine. I honestly have hundreds of examples of his lies, gaslighting, stonewalling behaviour

However many dinners he cooks or housework he does you need to leave this relationship.

The first is more important than the last in terms of your mental health.

*vampirethriller

The lovely bit is an act to keep you there. The unpleasant part is what he's really like.*

This, 100%

Xpost.....You don't have to explain a fucking thing to him. And you NEVER explain anything to an abuser. It's just giving them ammo to undermine you.

All you have to say is "This relationship isn't working for me anymore" and keep repeating it. He doesn't deserve an explanation and you don't owe him one.

If you do decide to end it (and I sure would), you get your ducks in a row; mentally decide what you would like to keep as far as possessions go, see a solicitor for advice about the house (buying him out vs leave and sell vs him buying you out) and any joint finances and how to go about separating them. Once you've educated yourself, make your decisions and proceed accordingly. But you say nothing until you are 100% ready to split and have made concrete plans.

You can leave him if YOU want. You don't have to justify it.

Passive aggressive - spends his life with suppressed anger - and the fake Mr NIce Guy act - he can’t do emotional intimacy and holds total contempt for you. He can’t communicate assertively so it runs into internalised anger which he expresses non verbally in little acts of terrorism - not one act on its own enough to really call it without the risk of sounding like a crazy woman (he knows this) but when you add them all up including the withholding, lies, sabotage it leaves you angry, baffled, drained and depressed. Did he have an overbearing mother?

Do you need a because?
You can say to him you want to separate. You don't need to explain it. Your decision is enough.

In a healthy relationship you don't agonise (see your choice of words there!) over whether to leave.

You don't have to tell him you're leaving because you suspect he sometimes hides your car keys or makes you late on purpose. Stop imagining that, and his reaction. Your reason for leaving can be "I'm unhappy. I want to end our relationship".

I would bet the farm that you'll feel an enormous sense of relief and lightening of spirit if you leave him.

Hi Op,
My relationship sounds very similar to yours. I have made excuses for him that he has ASD or Asperger's as he says he genuinely can't remember or doesn't say or do these things. However, maybe I think he just wants/needs control.
I minimise and adapt my behaviour to fit in with his and have done this so much so over the years that I have lost the parts of me that made me, me. I have told him this week that I no longer want a relationship but he doesn't seem to be listening. There wasn't a spectacular event just a slow and steady erosion of feelings with every little comment, look or gesture.
I have a relate appointment this week and I'm hoping having someone else there will help him understand that I am serious and I don't want this anymore. I am terrified and don't know what's going to happen next, but at least it's a start.

Hi op I know exactly where you are coming from - I was going to ask how long you’d been married and I see 20 years - how long since no intimacy if you don’t mind me asking? Also how old are you

WHo does what around the house? What is his own family situation like? Does he have any stressors in his life? In some respects he sounds like a child - you ask them if they did something they say no or they lie or try and justify it badly

Was there anything else that could be linked to your depression - you mention you had surgery.

I’m asking these questions because a lot of this sounds like my XH but I also get what the poster said about we are not all perfect - we may all have slightly abusive behaviour learnt through imperfect parents - different parenting if you are near age to me - In 50s - not much was discussed certainly not intimacy etc

I too suffer with depression - I’ve read the Lundy book - I’ve read the info from WA - ive done a lot of work on myself - I’m now realising that my own DF was pretty much like your H in relation to my mum - but it’s a hard call - is he abusive or from a different generation when things were different - I’m not trying to make any excuses here either - people have said there are lovely men out there , there are also a lot of very lonely people - do people come baggage free? I very much doubt it I certainly have huge amounts of baggage which could possibly make me difficult depending on what situation I’m in. My ability to trust has been shot to pieces - first by XH and then legal representation in divorce - but I still want to believe their is good in people even though I dont see this genuine goodness very often - even on MN these days there is a bias towards “selfishness” ie don’t put up with any shit from anyone - Im not sure if this is the answer - I can see us all becoming very isolated myself included because right now I want to run from everyone -

As I said I know exactly where you are coming from? Just one last question have you ever thought something has been moved etc then to find out you were wrong or are you always right in these situations?

It's so telling regarding the amount of control he has over you that you aren't leaving because you are agonising over how to rationalise it to him, and whether you have enough evidence or enough good reasons to present to him.

You can leave someone becaue you don't like the way they burp, or the colour socks they wear, or because you don't love them, or because you have discovered you are gay, or realised you are asexual, or that you want to be single and travel round the world. You can leave someone for literally any reason you can imagine and they are ALL VALID. They don't get to tell you that your reasons are shit and to come back to have a discussion when you can prove it - that's not how it works. You can just end it without any explanation if you like. He is not a lawyer in a court of law, he's just a man. That doesn't mean he doesn't present a danger and certainly for many women with a man like this, the most dangerous time for them is when they try and leave. But you can. You don't need to explain it to him, you don't need to communicate with him if you don't want to. In fact, because of the above I'd actively suggest you don't explain it, just do it. He will probably be very angry (who will he bully now) so make sure you are safe.

Most of control and abuse happens inside your head. He's really got inside your head hence you being so worried about what he would think. Fuck that! You don't have kids together, run away and be happy. I had a child with someone identical to this man and I am yoked to him for another 8 years or so minimum, and he's started doing the same things to our child now they are older so I have to watch them suffer the same BS. It's horrible.
Run!

Say if I said to him, I want to separate and it's because I think you're abusive;

Why would you discuss with him why you want to end the relationship?

What would the point of the discussion? This is a serious question. What would you want out of the discussion - what would you want him to say? What would you need to hear from him?