"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Steeve, that's really positive news - a black cloud removed from your horizon. You and your family must be so relieved. Fingers crossed now for an accurate diagnosis and helpful treatment.

I can't go into detail (very long and scared of a family member who I know uses MN realising who I am on here, so have also name changed), but I did not have a good upbringing, although I didn't realise how bad and abnormal it was for a long time.

I have siblings who are also I believed damaged in a lot of ways, they all continually fight and fall out, ,which has lead to a lot of sadness in our parents. I get conflicted by this because I see they are sad, and feel sorry for them, then remember how I was never a priority for them either when I was a child, or now I am an adult. I try never to be involved in all the conflict, which brings it's own punishments for me from my siblings. One of whom went no contact with me because she said I made her feel bad about herself (this was after a family event when she had said something vile to my 10 year old which I took exception to and couldn't stay out of due to her involving my DC). It was a relief to me not to have to have any further contact with this sibling, and they have not been missed from my life at all.

Now one of my parents has just died. For the first time in ages, my siblings are trying to get along with each other in front of our surviving parent. I have no idea how long this will last, as several conversations have shown me how bitter they still feel towards each other. The non contact sibling has on the surface made her peace with me, to make dealing with the funeral arrangements easier, but is being selectively nasty when able to do so without others noticing. Sadly my face has a nasty habit of showing my feelings so I am not able to look as though nothing is wrong when I am upset, so already I am being viewed as not trying hard enough to get along with everyone. This is made known to me by over heard whispers, glares and sly digs - which I am useless at combating. Nothing straightforward is said to allow me to stand up for myself. (If I could, because honestly my mind goes blank and my brain shuts down when I have to deal with my birth family)

My gut feeling is that when my surviving parent dies, I want nothing more to do with at least two of my siblings. I can't bring myself to go no contact now, as despite my upbringing, I still feel some odd need to have parental contact. Deep down I am always hoping I will be told I am loved and gain some insight into why I was always on the outside and treated differently to my siblings. I know this is a near impossible hope, but I can't seem to eradicate it.

Anyway, my reason for posting is because I would like some advice on how you safely go no contact with a relative that is likely to try hard to cause as much grief and problems as possible? Because this is the character of one of my siblings (but not the one who went no contact with me). I'm talking of a vindictive type of person who to my knowledge has in the past lied to try and get a relative arrested for GBH. Who has falsely reported another relative for child abuse sparking Social Services involvement and much unhappiness, fear and misery. Who has turned up at another relatives home armed with a wooden cricket bat and threatened physical harm along with damage to the property (no witnesses sadly and police said it was one word against another - this sibling can appear very normal and convincing to outsiders within seconds of being in the most awful scary temper). I could go on but I hope you get the picture. How do I protect myself from them once both our parents are dead?

I hope all that makes sense, as it is difficult to be precise while trying to protect my anonymity.

@lesserspottedbird I have no advice but wow you are amazing keeping it altogether right now!

Is anyone from Stately Homes around right now? I have to spend a day with my parents today and feel sick at the prospect. (By 'spend a day' I mean I have to make a seven hour round trip to take my father to an event for one hour, and also let my senile mother tag along with us, and also endure the disapproval of flying monkeys who have been told what a neglectful daughter I am. Since they insisted on moving 300 miles away to unassisted living (they both need assisted., he's in a wheelchair, she has dementia) I have already this year spent half term with them instead of my kids, caring for them while their carer was away; sold their house for them, choosing and appointing agents and solicitors and negoatiating offers, spent Bank Holiday with them and am now taking an unpaid day off work to ferry them around because they are on holiday with a flying monkey who tells me I neglect them. I have had a sleepless night of fury at this already this week, and this morning feel sick and have the runs at the stress of enduring all the vitriol.
If anyone is around please give me tips on how to handle this.
Actually, even writing down how insane this is makes me feel less like a wicked neglectful daughter.

You are definitely not neglecting them. Neglecting yourself...yes but not them.
Why don't you cherish today as a lesson and make this the first day of the new dynamics.

You can explain in your adult voice that this is untenable on many levels. If you are able to, you can signpost them for support and walk away.

(I love how I can dish advice yet I can't get my own shit together!)

This is insane and quite apart from being out of pocket you're going to put yourself out for some bloody flying monkey as well as your ill parents. Call the whole thing off, you're not well yourself and are stressed out at the whole thought of it all. You need to get out of feeling so obligated to your parents or to any and all attendant flying monkeys and I would suggest therapy.

You've had no thanks from anyone including your parents for all that you have done for them on top of undeserved criticism from the flying monkeys. Put them all straight now and put your foot down.

Why did your parents decide to move so far away from what they previously knew?. What was their thinking here?.

You still have a choice here and do not have to spend time with this monkey or your parents. You will end up yourself further unwell physically and mentally if you carry on like this, you could well have a nervous breakdown.

Do not do any more for them and do not make this journey, put your own family first now. Spend the day at home. The flying monkeys should be roundly ignored too because they are not interested in hearing your side of things and are only acting in their own self interest.

I would make their local Social Service department aware that they are now living in their area in unassisted living. How aware is their new GP of their circumstances now?.

You can only do so much and you've gone above and beyond already at great cost to your own self. Put your own self and family first now and state your case re no more clearly and succinctly.

Thank you all. Just back from the day with them and told DH, sorry but I need to get drunk now. (I very rarely get drunk.) More insanity - it would out me to say it but basically they then sent me on an errand with a round trip of about 700 miles (no kidding) to do something trivial for them. If I don't do it (of course I won't) I'll get the frozen treatment but I'm quite looking forward to that for a while. A break. Actually, them being so aggressively demanding makes it easier for me to think sod off the pair of you. it's when they try to be nice that I feel all confused and self-doubting. But the niceness is only a reel-in. The minute you respond with kindness, the bitchy putdowns and aggressive insane demands begin again.
Thank you all, I feel better now.

Attila they moved near other relatives who may have started to realise I am not the bitch they thought I was...

As the ACEs studies are getting even more notice recently, I realised I've never explained or mentioned it, even in passing.

ACEs - Adverse Childhood Experiences - are traumatic events that occur prior to becoming 18 and predispose us to physical diseases like cancer, heart disease, autoimmune conditions, chronic fatigue and chronic pain. The link to psychological conditions - PTSD, cPTSD, anxiety, depression, eating disorders and self-harm is moot.

The first response is no doubt "but other people's parents divorced and X" hasn't suffered. Yet ACEs bubble away under the surface for years, decades even, before revealing the impact of chronic toxic stress during childhood.

Think of the immune system as a bucket. As we progress through the trials and tribulations of adult life the bucket begins to fill up with the effects of stress. Those with ACEs start out at 18 with their buckets filled between a third and three-quarters.

If you want to check your own ACE score, it's the links below. My score is 5, fwiw.

acestoohigh.com/got-your-ace-score/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdverseChildhooddExperiencesStudy

Sorry, links.

(https://acestoohigh.com/got-your-ace-score/)

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdverseChildhooddExperiencesStudy)

My score is 6. And I have/have had: depression, chronic fatigue, alcohol problems, liver problems, problems keeping a job, smoking in adulthood... lots of things on their list. Quiet shocking really. I'm a very mild mannered middle class 'nice girl from a naice family' but my dad is a brutal narcissist and my mum a feeble enabler almost entirely devoted to him not her children. I have often wondered why I was so rubbish at getting my act together.

Long term lurker on this thread but never posted before. Partly because reading many of the stories here I feel I don’t have a right to because my mother did love me. She is a good person and isn’t a narcissist, but I relate to so much of this thread.

I think I’m realising the extent to which we make people into the people we need them to be as a child. I always thought my mum was wonderful and that all the pain and conflict was all down to me. She was always stressful and anxiety making, always going from losing it and shouting horrid things to being loving, perfect mum and denying what had happened (not on purpose, she was very chaotic and didn’t seem to remember what she’d said or done from one minute to the next – very difficult to cope with).

I went NC couple of years ago after a series of awful arguments when I realised I was just harming myself by trying to get some understanding from her, and that I actually find her traumatic and anxiety making to be around. She says there is nothing wrong with her and that I am ‘ill’. That was the last straw. I have been numb and blank for so long, I realised I need to get some feelings and memories back, properly, without anyone shaming me for them.

I have been so much more peaceful since she hasn’t been in my life. There is no feeling of loss – that already happened when I realised she wasn’t who I thought she was. When she says she ‘loves me’ it just feels like I’ll never get away and will always have this guilt. She thinks love and good intentions are enough. It would be nice if they were, but I just feel awful around her. Really self hating and depressed.

At the end of the day, she is someone who had a bad childhood, a bad marriage, who loved her children more than anything and tried her best, but who has now lost her daughter. I don’t know how to deal with the sadness of that. I feel like I’ve ‘done that’ to her. I don’t know how to just go, ‘this is the consequences of your own actions’ and step away. It feels very cold. But I’ve had to.

I have a growing feeling of obligation and dread about the next time I’ll have to see or speak to her. It’s like I’ve stayed on holiday too long and am inevitably doomed to have to leave at some point because it wouldn’t be right to carry on like this. Maybe I just need to stay strong – it does feel good not having contact.

"At the end of the day, she is someone who had a bad childhood, a bad marriage, who loved her children more than anything and tried her best"

Her best clearly was not this at all. Do not keep putting her needs ahead of your own here. You are important and you matter. She likely merely repeated what was meted out to her in her own childhood but you as an individual have chosen not to behave as she has done towards you. She took the low road here and never sought or wanted to seek the necessary help.

I would suggest reading about fear, obligation and guilt and consider also talking to a therapist. If you do this you need to find one who has no familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

Many people do not have ideal childhoods but choose all the same not to make their now adult children the scapegoat or blame them for their inherent ills or crap life. Your mother has not fundamentally altered I would argue since your own childhood, she has not changed.

If NC is working for you then keep with it. You have every right to say no more to being abused, this is your line in the sand.

You will ultimately need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

Would you have tolerated this from a friend, no probably not. Your mother is no different.

There's a lot of good information on the www.outofthefog.net website too.

You're right Attila that she has not changed at all. I try and put my own needs first but I just feel blank and numb. I have started therapy again recently (had it a few years ago also). It's like rationally I now understand the situation but emotionally I am still stuck in obligation and guilt. I think I just don't understand what it would feel like to be myself and put myself first. It just feels meaningless and like I don't even want to bother with myself, I am so tired. I will though.

On paper my life looks worse now than it did before (currently no job, career, lost contact with most friends because of depression, etc etc). And it is lonely. But I feel so relieved to be released from this relationship with her, it feels like the best thing that's ever happened. It is honestly my greatest achievement. You can't put that on a CV though :)

Namechanged, think about why you feel blank and numb. Because you've learned over the years to suppress your feelings as a way of avoiding hurt and pain and to avoid giving your mother an excuse to indulge in one of her rages? Suppression, as Steve points out, often comes at a price.

The calm and peace you feel now at being NC with your mother is entirely rational. It's hard to explain, of course, to people with normal mother/child relationships (i.e. most people) and it doesn't fit with society's expectations but sometimes, it's the only way we can live our lives day to day. I'm NC with my mother (and enabling father) and still struggle sometimes to make sense of the fact that I no longer feel anything for them but having now had nine months' peace and quiet, as well as freedom from nastiness, hurt and drama, I know it's the only way forward.

My best wishes to you.

Namechange it's quite a slow and scary process, analysing why you fee so poisoned by someone who professes to love you. But depression, job loss or very low success in a career (way below your ability) are indicators. And you will probably find as you explore their 'love' that it was always on their terms, always what suited them or fulfilled their emotional needs, not yours.
Also, as someone who was raised bya afther who was screaming vile htinsg one minute, hugging and praising you the next, I have to say it;s the most toxic combination. If your parents are plain vile, it's easier to see. but if they can and do turn at any minute for no reason you can fathom, you live on a knife edge. I constantly feel dread that DH will be 'furious; with me, for something minor. He never is, never has been, but it's hard wired. That's not love, even if there are memories of hugs or praise or kindness. Children need stability, security, calm and steady affection, unbroken trust in their parents. If you didn't get that, you were failed and it is not your fault that you are reacting now. Honestly, I am now VLC with my parents and off anti-depressants for the first time in decades. I had to see them twice last week and have been in bed most of this week with a crashing bout of depression. It sucks. I need to put myself first. They always do.

Sorry for so many typos. Written very quickly. Hope you can make sense of it.

Thank you for your replies.

SingingLily, it's so nice having peace and quiet isn't it? For some reason it never even occurred to me that going NC was an option, but now I have it's like I've come up for air for the first time in my life. It definitely doesn't fit society's expectations. Most people think love is enough, but a lot of people who love their children cause terrible damage to them. Not a lot of people understand this.

Woodcut You're right, it's the unpredictability that does you in. My dad had mental health issues and wasn't a dad really, but at least he was the same all the time. You never know where you are with a parent who is so changeable, it turns you into an anxious wreck. My default position is also worrying other people are angry at me. I'm always trying to detect potential anger or criticism, or trigger it so at least I can be in control of when it happens. And yes, career success way below my ability rings a bell. I have no interests anymore and feel nothing, everything feels pointless. I have no idea who I am or what I'm good at. But I'll get there I hope. One thing I feel is that I shouldn't have a family, for fear of causing someone else the pain I've been through. I can't bear the idea of someone feeling about me the way I feel about my mother. All this is obviously stuff I need to tackle in therapy, but it's slow and takes so long, I worry about losing even more time.

Namechanged I'd just like to point out that despite your depression and numbness you've taken the very important and positive step of getting counselling, and you've also posted on here. Don't forget to feel proud of yourself for doing both those things.

There are some great suggestions for further reading at the start of this thread if you think that might help.

Namechanged - if it helps at all, I feel very glad I became a mum. I have worked incredibly hard at being a good one - all learned from books, as I had only a few good things to carry through from childhood. But I have broken the cycle. My kids are clean, properly clothed, with shoes that fit, money in their pocket. They love in a calm, supportive environment. They are respected and listened to. I have broken the cycle. It's a challenge but it's perfectly possible if you have a desire to do it and are conscious of how you don't want to behave and why.

Thanks Woodcut, that is nice to hear. Funnily enough I'm not worried about repeating the same mistakes as personality wise I'm nothing like her. I just fear I'll bring my own *cked up-ness in somehow. I can't imagine being part of a functional family, let alone one I create for myself. I'm not worried about how I'd be with older children, it's the early years where it's about attachment and instinct. I have no instinct, I'm just blank and can't connect, which terrifies me. My little cousin came over to stay a couple of years ago and I couldn't connect with her at all - I could see on her face the surprise or confusion when I didn't react or respond. Funnily enough she loved my mum. But yes, at least I am aware of these things. It's not possible to think straight about the future or your own potential when you're depressed.

Thankyou M15

Woodcutbirds, all credit to you for doing right by your children. When I was about 12, I decided to remain childless because I didn't want any child of mine to have the sort of lonely and miserable existence I'd had. It never occurred to me that it was neither normal nor inevitable. Sadly, by the time I came to my senses, it was far too late. I regret it now, so much. My DSis, on the other hand, did the same as you. She was the eternal scapegoat, my mother's emotional punching bag, yet she overcame her rubbish childhood to have children of her own. Her girls, like your children, are loved and cared for and will never ever know the sort of harshness and casual emotional cruelty that we did. My DSis struggles at times because she's having to find her own way of doing things - no family role models for her - but she is determined to make her girls feel loved, happy, secure and safe. The plus is that I get to be Fun Auntie, always ready with stories and jokes and treasure hunts and silly laughing games, something neither DSis nor I had in our own childhoods.

It can be done.