"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Colouring - you actually don't need your youngest sisters agreement or approval for how you experience your mother. Really you don't. You get to make up your own mind based on your experiences. Doesn't matter that she's nice (or not) to someone else. How is she to you and how will you respond to that? That is all you need to decide. It also doesn't really matter what others think of that. Or how how you think you should think about that. Instead ask yourself how you feel about lowering contact. If its relief that's ok.

Also your mother may have patented you a damn sight better than she was patented. But she still did damage. I think children of neglectful abusive narcissists parents are often asked or ask of themselves to practice forgiveness and empathy when they haven't yet healed their own hurts. It asks too much. Particularly to do that in relation to that parent who did the hurting. Because it actually does more damage by preventing you from truly seeing understanding and healing your hurt. If you feel the desperate need to be loving and forgiving do that consciously in another relationship. A healthy relationship. Don't keep trying to fill the bottomless pit of your barc parent because it just warps your understanding of loving and connecting with others.
Same to others. There been a lot of posts sorry I xant respond to all. But ive recently done a lot of PTSD counselling (following on from lots of other counselling, mainly psycho dynamic, other the years. It's done a huge deal for processing the trauma out of me. Much of it ridiculously simple boundary exercises to process stick fright or flight responses and self actuaries by identity in concrete physical ways. The effect has been astonishing. Although when trying to find this counsellor I came across another PTSD therapist who I thought seemed awful.
Book called The Body Keeps the Score got me into thinking I should investigate this for myself.

lasttime I've been recommended that Body keeps the score book for my son too (ptsd) so will go and order it.

I get what you're saying about younger sis and permission, thanks. I think what I'm struggling with most is not being believed/understood by my siblings. We're supposed to be this close family. I'm probably paranoid that they view me a bit like we view mum - very needy, mentally not great.

When I went to visit yesterday I very nearly walked out, partly due to her, but probably mainly due to having had to spend much to much time in hospital in the last few years with bipolar exh and son now with ptsd. I don't feel believed by family and professionals regarding him either at the moment which is not helping. Separated from OH, so pretty lonely I guess. Anyhow now I'm rambling...

See what you think of the book. It really struck a chord for me. Also this thing about wondering, being influenced, worrying about, how others view you in these dysfunctional family set ups relates often to not having a strong enough sense of 2hat you think and feel. I have found that by strengthening me all of that matters less. It is lonely at first. But over time getting rid of people who view you negatively (often regardless of what you actually do) opens the space for others to come and cherish you. And that helps you really ground a better sense of yourself that sticks better and works more easily that working hard to be positive . And some of that better sense of yourself will also be a calm acceptance of shortcomings- because once you get away from the strange dysfunctional world of people are bad and others are good you really get that everyone is complicated and a mix of bas and good and that's ok and you deal with things healthily.
Sorry preaching today. But it's such a relief to make that progress finally for me. Not that it's all done, it never will be done. But I've come a long way and thankful for it.

Hi everyone, I previously posted as Soliloquy - had to get a new account due to a new email etc etc. Thanks for all your advice from a few weeks ago.
I wanna ask you all - when does it become stalking? It's been four minths now since I told narcmom to fuck off, and she s still finding every excuse to contact me. I've had to change my phone number, email, social media, and still she finds a way. She's been snooping through my husband's work sites etc. She's still posting things to our house.
We're considering moving.
When does this end? I'm not developing agoraphobia, the opposite - I'm getting anxious about being jn my own home incase she finds me here or turns up. Im looking for any excuse to get out of the house as much as possible.
Have any of you had to call the police? I'm feeling this is inevitable.

Unfortunately many toxic people resort to doing what your mother is doing i.e. hoovering when the now adult decides to have no further contact.

I would call the police; what your mother is doing here amounts to harassment. You should be free to be able to go about your own business without such interference. If you do move there should be no forwarding address given.

Some toxic people will let you leave a relationship without caring one bit. They never really cared about you, and if you don’t want to be used and abused anymore, they’re simply on to the next person before you can say, “Bye!”

Others, however…

Others hoover.

The toxic hooverer doesn’t truly care about you either — they just want to keep you around to feed on emotionally, and when you decide to go no contact, they don’t plan on letting you get away that easily.

Many hooverers have traits of borderline, narcissistic, antisocial or histrionic personality disorders. People with Dependent Personality Disorder may also hoover.

Hoovering is manipulation to gain control over your choice to distance yourself, and typically takes the following forms:

•Ignoring your requests to break off the relationship and attempting to continue on as if nothing has changed.
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•Asking you when you’re going to “get over it” and return to your past actions.
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•Sending you a fake apology to give you hope that things have changed.
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•Trying to trick you into contact by saying someone needs you, is sick, or in trouble.
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•Triangulating with others, communicating things to you through them.
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•Saying they’re worried about you, concerned about whether you’re okay, need to know where you are, etc.
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•Sending unwanted cards, messages and gifts, sometimes gifts for your children, as they know you are likely to feel guilty about keeping a gift from your kids. Don’t allow this – exposing your children to manipulation is far worse!
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•Returning old items you left behind.
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•Baiting you with drama games.
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•Contacting you about “important” things they “forgot” and suddenly have to tell you.
Attempts to pull you back into a toxic relationship are not valid expressions of caring and concern — they are attempts to regain control over your behaviour. Beware — hoovering attempts are often disguised as caring, loneliness, hurt, desperation, fear, illness, and other things designed to play on your sympathies and pull you back. Abusers know that pulling on heartstrings works very well. (In the case of BPD, it may be simply out-of-control emotions and fear of abandonment more than an attempt to control you per se; however you will likely still feel that you are not being allowed to end a relationship you no longer want).

If your wish to end a relationship is not being honoured, whatever a toxic person thinks will work best on you will be what they try, so when one angle doesn’t work, they will try another, and another, ramping up their efforts until it seems they might never stop. Typically, hoovering DOES stop if the person being hoovered does not fall for the hooverer’s tricks.

The sooner the person being hoovered completely ignores everything and does not respond to anything at all in any way, the sooner the toxic person finally understands that they do not have the control. Some toxic people may still make the occasional attempt on holidays, anniversaries of events, etc. Don’t bite the bait. Simply ignore any attempts.

If you have already made it clear that you do not want a relationship (or if it’s obvious) then DON’T ever contact the person doing the hoovering to tell them to stop again, or how angry you are. That is a reward. They will be thrilled to receive your attention and pleased to know that their efforts have paid off by snagging you, so they’ll be contacting you even more!

If you have told someone you do not want contact, and they continue to bother you, the police can assist you. If you ever feel that someone you are trying to break off a relationship with may be capable of more than simply annoying you mildly, contact your local police for assistance. They are well-accustomed to dealing with skillful manipulators and have many smart ways of handling them, so do not hesitate to ask for help. (And remember, you have nothing to be ashamed about; you’re not the one behaving badly, and the police are there to protect you from abuse.)

Hi Karlwho

Let me reassure you that you are not plaguing me and this is not tedious for me to answer. All replies on here are helpful to others as well in the same situation

re your comment:-
"My concerns about going tk the police i s she has a lot of contacts in the force, as she used to be a PO!"

Do not be worried about that, your mother probably left the force many years ago and even if she did not this should have no bearing on you actually approaching them. They are also supposed to be totally impartial and they should take you seriously.

Would you have tolerated this from a friend, no you would not. Your mother is no different.

Do not respond at all to her because that is what she wants. Any stuff she sends either bin or take it to the charity shop; do not give such items any more power.

You could take a photo of the unwanted stuff she sends you to show to the police.

If anyone else had done this, I would've reported them lol, and speaking with my husband about it last night, he said if it was a guy doing this he'd... Yoou get the pict ure. Im definitely going to start taking pictures. The cards and whatnot,emails, txts, I deleted as I hated seeing them/knowing they were there. I have however written it all down in a diary and dated it.
You mentioned if I was worried about a possibility where things could get physical etc - I have thought about this, and dismissed it in my own head as just being 'ott'. I alerted all the clubs my kids go to that she is not to collect them/allowed to take the kids etc, as I was concerned she'd turn up and 'pick the kids up'. Even now, if my kids are playing in the back garden, I'm out there with them as I now know she can get through the locks on our gate. (Weve actually added m ore locks since, but i still wont keave anything to chance).

Would report her for her ongoing harassment of yourselves. There is really no good reason not to report this.

Thanks for your help and support. I've got a meeting on Thursday to take a statement

*give

Hi Attila, Lily, Toomuch and the regulars.

Things ticking along here. I had the need to visit parents' home a couple of weeks ago. On several occasions mother yelled/abused father. It took me right back to my childhood, and has/is been/being seriously triggering.

In other news, I'm seeing a senior psychologist next month!

I'm also undergoing a potential cancer scare (two week pathway), been told they will need to do a scan. Stressing as they ain't doing that without a general anaesthetic.

Miss, love, you all. :)

Ohh Steeve, I was thinking about you only the other day and wondering how you were going on. It's a worrying time re the possible cancer but thank goodness you are being fast-tracked by the NHS and they are obviously being thorough. Chin up, then - you've had to be strong and overcome so many things in your life already that you can do this too. Will be thinking about you in the coming weeks.

Hi Steeve

Funnily enough I was wondering how you were getting on also. So very sorry to read this. My best wishes to both you and your family during these difficult times.

Would like to wish you and all of you peeps who read and post on this particular thread a very Happy Easter.

Thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat for your response. I wasn't ready to respond to you before now as it's such a complicated situation and I feel ill from it all...as everyone's will understand here on this thread.

My eldest daughter and my mum were very close when she was little and when my mum could happily control everything. Then during her teens there was barely any contact between them. But now my daughter is an adult and lives at uni my mam has made contact (not acknowledging any past problems and acting as of nothing has happened). My daughter admits she lives in FOG but thinks that's better than NC because of the guilt involved with that.

I honestly can't think how I will move forward so aren't doing anything and burning my head in the sand at the moment.

I am thankful for this thread though!

Not sure if I am posting in the right place but will do anyways and hope someone can point me in the right direction.
So my mum has deleted me off fb, and WhatsApp I'm due my second child next week. She did something similar when I was pregnant the first time sent me a horrible message during pregnancy and then didn't speak to me til lo was a month old.
I'm quite angry atm because although I know she's a crap mum, I thought I was giving the benefit of doubt by ensuring a place in her grandkids life.
Not to dripfeed functioning alcoholic, can't remember most of my childhood apart from certain things , she was recently in hospital but none of the kids jumped I think to the tune she wanted.
I'm not sure how to proceed, when I had my first child I was so so upset due to her not bothering but this time I am so angry but not surprised. I kind of expected my siblings to be on side with me well one is but brother seems to be very enmeshed.
Anyways help.

Anyone here have a parent who wasn’t actually abusive, just is so mentally ill that youve had to cut contact? I read most of your posts with horror and sympathy, and think to myself ‘well yes of course you should be NC’. I wasn’t abused beyond the usual 90s smacking - my needs were often neglected, because of her my mother’s poor mental health, but I was loved and nurtured. This fact makes the guilt of going NC really intense. But dealing with her has become impossible, she’s paranoid and refuses help. I have my DC to consider. If she’s been plain abusive the way her mother was with her, the guilt for me would be less; on the other hand, perhaps I’d never have found the strength to disengage at all. It’s all very confusing.

Oops grammatical autocorrect typos there. Breastfeeding my five month old (excuses excuses!)

Attilla thanks for that post on hoovering, that’s my mother all over - I’ve been hoovered back in so many times it’s ridiculous. Her tactic is to pretend nothing has happened or changed, just completely deny reality and send chatty emails, even surprise me on my street and pretend she thought I’d like her to visit (it was my due date with DD and is been saying for over a year in the strongest possible terms that she should not visit under any circumstances), then write a letter saying what a nice visit it was (I ran away from her to my midwife appt where I burst out crying, and told her I wouldn’t be returning home until I was sure she had gone - yes, a charming visit). I’d not heard the term hoovering before. I’ve finally blocked her from Instagram and changed my email address.

@IsThisYourSanderling

Your post echoes much of my childhood. I think it's really important to realise the various forms abuse and neglect can take. My mother would fire verbal barbs, render me devoid of self-worth and self-esteem with a nonchalant shrug. Over 30 years later she blames everything on her mental health, convenient crutch. Be very careful with allowing your children around this woman.

It's also easy to become mired in the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) triad, where we tell ourselves it "wasn't that bad" when actually it was pretty bloody horrific.

I'll be back to post properly tomorrow.

@Redken24 I'm so sorry that your mother is treating you this way during your pregnancy...how low of her.
It sounds like the classic martyr reaction to get attention so my immediate response would be to ignore her tantrum. How did you get back in contact after your first child was born?

@avocadoincident
Thankyou for your kind words.
If I'm honest I can't remember 100%, maybe my brother "helping" and when she met my lo I gave her a dressing down and told her that her behaviour was deplorable. Very strange looking back on it now as her behaviour with 1st pregnancy made me realise how awful she is! I thought I knew but after having my own child it really reinforced it for me.
Weirdly she has now started sending messages acting like nothing has happened.
I was discussing this the other day where there version of events is made to suit them and their needs.
Sorry and thanks for the rant.

@Redken24 I think the whole 'behaving as if nothing happened' is their way of not acknowledging their ridiculous behaviour. And because it now suits them to be back in touch they make contact.

It sounds like your mum sees your pregnancy, birth and little one as a threat to her. Your successes in these areas are major achievements and instead of being happy for you she is threatened so has a tantrum to gain the attention back on her.

My mum is the same. She always creates a drama to make it about her

@Redken24 you said that even thou gh she was a naff mum, you kept her around for the grandkids. I did EXACTLY the same. My 'mother' was abysmal. I was abused by her for thirty years. I justified keeping her around by telling myself that even though she treated me like dogshit, she was making up for it by being good to my kids. Trust me, an abus ive mum becomes a n abusive grandma. May take a while, but that mask will slip.
I'm sorry that she's doing this whilst you're pregnant i know how hard that is.

On another note, I got SERIOUSLY proactive in my steps to self-care; I 've taken legal steps to protect myself, and I'm now in talk therapy and on beta blockers (:/) Just thought I'd shout about it