"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I just wanted to post , finally saw my dm at the weekend for the first time since my dad Sent his poisonous messages . We had a good talk , she claims she's told him that he's wrong and asked him why and she wants to speak to me and find out what's happened. She was supportive to me but some claims that the previous behaviour of ignoring me was down to his medication.
She also said he often ignores what's happened so it's like it never happened like you say @avocadoincident
Also she blames his childhood ( his mother didn't show him love )
You could blame it on his upbringing but why behave exactly as your mum when you know how hurtful it is ?
It scares me that I may end up behaving like my dad .
I also think it's sad , sad for him mainly why would you want to push people away .
I want to talk about it but then I don't .
The truth is there is no solution, my dad can never admit he's wrong in fact I'm in the wrong as far as he's concerned.

Checking in after a long break. After an assessment with the mental health service I am on the waiting list for psychotherapy.

I am still low contact with DM, but have absolutely no feelings toward her whatsoever. My sister is NC and she has no contact with her children. I invited DM to DS's birthday day out - she couldn't make the trip (which was fine) but apparently couldn't make the tea and cake in the evening. Strange as it sounds, that has been a turning point for me. She had assumed I would stay at her house after a recent family party. When I told her I wasn't going to I got the guilt trip/manipulation (I'm so disappointed, we were so looking forward to it, have we done something wrong) but I stuck to my guns and feel stronger for it.

@dalecooperscoffeecup a turning point is so important. Maybe you should write down your feelings/ emotions so you can re-read them in times when FOG starts emerging or when you are wondering if low contact or NC is the right thing to do

That's a good idea avocadoincident It still feels very raw (DS is too little to know any different but it's hurtful to me to hear her wailing about her other grandchildren when she can't make the effort with the one she can see).

thank you @toomuchtoosoon
I've retreated from the family for the moment because tensions were too high, and I literally have nothing to give at the moment. I am being cast as the difficult one for having emotional reactions to everything. I continually seemed to be apologising for it whilst being told I was selfish, passive aggressive (for opening up about how I've been struggling) and not trying hard enough. Siblings are able to put aside their feelings to look after my mum, I did for a bit but couldn't sustain it in addition to my own mental health and run the risk of being criticised, blamed and undermined. I'm really scared that I'm actually the toxic one when it comes to my family.

Hi all.

Just seeking a bit of advice as everyone was so helpful when I posted a few weeks ago.

I'm at the early stages of processing the impact of my narcissistic DM and the knock on family dysfunction.

I've distanced myself from my DM over the past few weeks since I've started therapy. Previously I would meet up with her about once a week. I feel very odd about not seeing her or contacting her as much. I feel an urge to tell her I'm in therapy but think that's probably a mistake. On the surface on things we get on really well but I wonder if there's a golden child dynamic there. I can certainly identify a sibling who is a scapegoat.

I wondered if anyone had experienced similar feelings or had any advice? Thanks

I am conscious of how little I contact my DM, if that helps AfterGlowWorm? I agree there's no point telling her about therapy. It has taken about 18 months to fully realise what i/we as siblings went through and every day there is some grief, some anger, some more realisation.

Thank you dalecooperscoffeecup

It's very early days for me I think. I'm still reeling between disbelief that this is the truth of the situation and uncovering old anger/pain/sadness.

@hellish1 I think you're doing the right thing distancing yourself. You know maybe your siblings are more resilient or maybe they get and got different treatment from your mother, maybe they are willing to accept abuse as the price of seeing themselves as good sons and daughters. None of that means that you have to put up with it. I doubt that you are the toxic one, I think you're probably the scapegoat.

Hope everyone's doing OK... we're just back off our holidays. A relative has contacted me with a plausible sounding reason for needing my address (my mother doesn't have it and it's been very peaceful) and I'm trying to figure out what to do about it. I've left it for now, I might just ignore the message to be honest. I had another cousin asking when we'd be visiting the UK again as well, and I know I might be being paranoid, but it's been four years since I saw my mother and I'm wondering whether these recent contacts are either instigated by my mother or even just the family wanting to know if there's something going on. I'd rather not tell any of them about it - the abuse, the NC - both because I don't want the drama but also because my mum is a widow, we don't see her - I don't want to take the family away from her as well. It's not like she does babysitting, I'm the only one with young kids, she's not a danger to anyone - she's just a difficult and unhappy character, and if she still gets along well enough with her siblings I don't want to get in the way of that. And on the other hand, if they take her side, I don't look forward to the army of flying monkeys. Nothing to be gained by waking this sleeping dog, you know?

toomuchtooold

I would let sleeping dogs lie here and not respond to either message (which on the face of it could have been sent from both at your mother's bidding).

Am only just back from holiday too, hope you also had a great holiday.

Yeah I think you're right Attila. I actually wasn't asked by the person who's supposed to need the address, it was her mum who asked, which makes me suspicious. There's probably a way of resolving the issue (if it's genuine) without me giving them the address, which would be a bit of a faff, but doable. But to suggest it at this point will set hares running about why I don't want to share the address. I'll wait for the request to be repeated actually from the person it's for - even if it is a genuine request, it's something that they may well end up not needing (sorry to be so cryptic, it's a bit outing).

Found this today and I idea of forgiveness and closure.

I am lucky to be at peace with my decision of NC, but thought this may help those who are struggling.

slate.com/human-interest/2013/02/abusive-parents-what-do-grown-children-owe-the-mothers-and-fathers-who-made-their-childhood-a-living-hell.html

Does anyone here think that a parent could have been abusive and it not be their parent's fault? i.e. They had it really tough, no support, mental health issues? I never really thought of my mother as abusive when I was a child. I just thought it was unfair that I didn't have a mum who was like everyone else's. I was jealous of my friends because their mums were nicer. I just thought of mine as a bit "embarrassing" or "psycho". It was only really after leaving home that I realised it was abuse, but I feel like it wasn't her fault, which confuses me, because if anyone treated my children the way my brothers and I were treated, I would be up in arms. I wouldn't accept any excuse or justification.

I feel as though I can be objective with my own mother and see the bigger picture, but then I think of my children, and ask how there could be a "bigger picture" at all.

Not sure if any of that makes sense?

It was only really after leaving home that I realised it was abuse, but I feel like it wasn'ther fault, which confuses me, because if anyone treated my children the way my brothers and I were treated, I would be up in arms. I wouldn't accept any excuse or justification.

It makes complete sense, RabbitingOn. My mother had a tough childhood. Some of it I know about, and some of it - well, let's just say I've had my suspicions for a long time and leave it at that.
So I should have sympathy for her, shouldn't I? Except I don't.

She stored up rage about whatever happened to her as a child and then took it out on me and on my DSis when we were defenceless children, whereas we have never taken our childhoods out on anyone. In fact, my DSis ties herself up in knots trying to be a loving mother to her two little ones precisely because she wants them to have what she never had - a normal happy childhood.

Yet my mother was certainly capable of putting her own upbringing behind her. She treated my brother and my middle sister very differently. That tells me she could have chosen to break the cycle altogether and given all four of us a mother's love and support. But she didn't. How do you explain - to anyone brought up in a normal loving family - that your mother has four children but only has room in her heart for two? And that the room in her heart is entirely unconditional for her son but her favoured daughter has to meet all sorts of conditions?

You put your finger on it, RabbitingOn. You wouldn't allow your children to be treated in the way that you and your brothers were. Your mother could and should have made the same decision - but she didn't. She chose instead to make you and your brothers miserable just so she could feel better about herself. Sorry - she doesn't deserve your sympathy, but you do have mine.

Like SingingLily, I know my mother had a tough upbringing and has a long history of mental health problems (not PD as far as I'm aware, but I wouldn't be surprised). I too would like to feel sorry for her but she has several siblings who were raised in the same environment and have managed to not repeat the mistakes of their past. There is a choice and my mother chose not to make it.

My parents both had neglectful and in at least one case abusive upbringings. What I know of my grandparents is also pretty tough - illegitimacy/single parenthood, losing parents at an early age - and all that in the background of the world wars. The effects of trauma carry themselves down the generations.
As regards blame and stuff - like you dalecooper I notice that some of my relatives, even the ones who were treated the worst (like my dad) turned out to be nice people who were good to their kids. My dad was affected by the abuse, there's no question of that - like many people who suffer childhood abuse he ended up in an abusive relationship (with my mother) and didn't have the emotional strength or skills to get out of that. I sit right on the fence between thinking that for the sake of his child he should have found some courage and got us both out of there, and feeling sympathy for him and being grateful that at least he didn't leave me with her.

I find it much harder to have sympathy for my mother. She is an intelligent woman, and for most of my childhood and her adult life before that she had a very secure, controlled life with very little to trigger the anxieties that I know she has. She admits to anxiety and she's been offered support and referral for psychotherapy from her GP more than once, and always opted not to take them up on it. I think that at some level she made a deliberate decision to remain what she is, and to keep being abusive to me and my dad. Maybe I could have more sympathy if our lives had had a lot of external stress or chaos at that time but there was really nothing outside of the stuff that was going on in her own head. I don't know. When my kids were little, I started to get these moments of total rage and despair - I now believe this was my CPTSD being triggered but at the time I put it down to all different things probably, my own craziness , stress we were under, the difficulty of looking after twins... I often felt angry at my kids but I think the line that I stopped, where my mum crossed over, was that I never blamed my kids for the feelings of anger that I got when they were doing stuff that made me angry. Even as I was angry I could see that it made no sense to blame a three year old for acting like a three year old. Sometimes I would go and punch the wall in frustration, I ate way too much, I drank a bit too much... I went to therapy, which helped a bit, and talked on here and commiserated with a friend who was also finding early motherhood hard, and those things helped a lot... but I think where I tried to cope, my mother gave herself enthusiastically over to rage at little toomuch in order to be able to preserve her idea of herself as a good mother and a good person. And I understand that her childhood probably created the conditions that made it so crucial to her that she retain her idea of herself as a good person - she had no inherent self-esteem - but that doesn't make it right to throw your kid under the bus. And it gives you a clue as to the likely future behaviour of a person as well, that's the thing - I don't even have to judge my mother or be angry to come to the conclusion that she would be likely to repeat her past behaviour (with me, or my kids) if she felt angry or sad around us, and that's why we don't see her. I think whatever you conclude about how much your abuser was to blame, what mitigating circumstances there were, whether they had insight or control, at the end of the day if they were abusive and there's reason to believe that they would still act that way, then you're entitled IMO not to see them, and more, you have a responsibility to make sure that they don't have the chance to abuse your children.

Is it possible that my father, who has always presented as the classic enabler to my (undiagnosed) narc mother, might actually have narcissistic traits of his own? And that they might have held different, and therefore conflicting, views about which of their children was a golden child and which was the scapegoat?

I'm NC with her - and by default, with him, because they have always been a package deal - but he did something the day before yesterday which shocked me and now I'm beginning to recall and re-evaluate things done and things said in the past. He is perfectly capable of being downright nasty in his own right, without any prompting from her.

Either way, what a screwed-up pair they are.

Hi singinglily

I often write that the narcissistic woman cannot do relationships at all therefore the man they are in a relationship with is often discarded or is actually as narcissistic as they are.

Your father is certainly your mother's enabler and secondary abuser here so he cannot be at all relied upon either. They both get what they want from the relationship; theirs is a dysfunctional dance of codependency.

Hi SingingLily.

Yes, I think it's possible. I thought my Dad was the 'problem' and my Mum was the enabler for most of my life, mainly because that was the way my Mum presented things to me and my sister. But since my Dad's death I have very slowly come to see, now that my Mum's behaviour is exposed 'solo', so to speak, that it was quite possibly the other way around. Or that it was some weird dance they did between them. It is quite the mindfuck when you realise, so you have my sympathies.

Thank you, Attila (voice of sanity, as always!), and MI5terPip. It helps to know that my take on the situation is entirely rational.

Without going into any detail that would "out" me, he sent me something through the post that was personal, nasty and spiteful despite complete radio silence from me for the past eight months since we went NC. It was so out of the blue and shocked me so much that I was barely able to speak for the rest of the day. He was the parent I always turned to when I needed comfort or support as a child because there was no point in turning to M (the ironing board was warmer than she was). Because of that, I'd fooled myself into believing that he loved me - just not enough to stand up to M when I really needed him to. I was wrong. He's every bit as bad as her, just as Attila says.

Eight months ago, I grieved for the mother I never had. Now I'm going to have to grieve for the father I thought I had but was never real. Bar steward.

Forgot to say, I didn't actually open the envelope. I didn't need to. I know his handwriting and it was clear what it contained. DH put the unopened envelope straight in the shredder at my request so if there was a further message inside, it's gone unseen and unheard and there will be no reaction from me.

They were already blocked on my phone, etc, and now I am deleting all traces of them - photos, old "affectionate" emails and cards from him, keepsakes, the lot. Jewellery they gave me for special birthdays (never worn because it was never to my taste, oh no, that would never do) will be sold as scrap gold because that's all it's worth to me. At least, it's giving me somewhere to channel my anger

Joining in for a small vent. Just spent the day with my mother and tomorrow will be with my m-in-law. It’s tolerable, but painful. I was discussing with my husband last night how we would both love mothers we could talk about real things too- my daughter has been going through some stuff recently, I’ve breast lumps checked (and found benign, thank goodness).
I didn’t even think to mention any of it to my mother, with whom I now have a civilised, but fairly distant relationship. It’s like being orphaned, but with no one actually dead. I am non contact with my father too. It’s lonely. It’s no good rehashing the past. But I feel sad tonight. I still mourn for some idealised mother I never had.

💐GeraniumPink, hope tomorrow is a better day for you.

Thank you. Family is so hard for you too singinglily.

(Had test, no sign of cancer thank fuck, now waiting for neuro to dx the condition they all agree I have).

Hope you're all ok.