Breakdown of marriage after 15 years - a bit of a shock.

[ChristyC]

My husband and I have been married for 15 years. We have 2 lovely children and a lovely home, he works hard, as do I and we've always had a lot of fun and laughs. The problem is, that when we socialise, he drinks so much and gets aggressive with other people and myself. He has never hit me, but been very intimidating, throws things around and quite frankly scares me. He has a reputation for being tough and not one to mess with and although the incidences are not particually frequent I know they are damaging. A couple of years ago he ended up in crown court after beating someone up and I stood by him over 10 long months when others didn't want to know. He promised then to not drink so much but since then there have been at least 4 incidences when he has and behaved really badly. He is a lovely man when sober, but the way he behaves when he is drunk is appalling. I am at a point now where I don't trust him not to do it again. 2 weeks ago he moved out and I have really enjoyed the time on my own. He has behaved badly when drunk for a long time - certainly since I have known him and as he barely remembers the next day, he can't seem to understand how crippling it is for me. I remember his face and eyes when he is drunk and how scared and angry I am and I think that each time over the years he has behaved like that a little piece of love for him has died. He has been coming back home to see the children but the pressure he is putting on me to work it out is really hard to deal with. I feel like I am bailing out, although he has been given so many chances I have never asked him to leave before. I think I am looking for someone out there who may have been in a similiar situation and can give me any advice or pointers as to where I go from here. Many thanks.

NO advice but I hope that you manage to make the right decision for you and your children.

Sorry to hear about your situation, sounds terrible for you. I don't have any experience of this but could you move forward if he promised never to drink again? Or is it too late for that?

Is he an alcoholic do you think? There are several in my family but not my dp. Agression has never been a problem for my family members so no real experience there. Unfortunately few of them have managed to dry out. I forgot one of my uncles was agressive when drunk and apparently he sobered up after his future wife left him. Sadly he never married.

He has a problem probably with drink more than agression so confronting that is the issue I think. He must be willing to address it and go to AA or something similar I think.

My ex H usd to be like this although perhaps not so exteme. I could tell even if he had only had one drink. He would get all mouthy and although he never hit me he would punch holes in the walls next to me. We would row and argue etc. but I would don't think I would have considered asking him to leave because of it. In the end I actually met someone else who was the total opposite and I walked out of my marriage despite not having had a physical relationship with new man. We've been married for 4 years now with 2 DD's. Gosh i've never said that on mumsnet before (bit about being married before)

Do you want to patch it up?

Or do you just want out?

If the former, then the condition would have to be that he goes to Alcoholics Anonymous/ drying out clinic/ other alcoholic help and support and gives up drinking. No ifs, no buts.

My XP was an alcoholic btw. And he is now even more dependent on booze than he was then.

Thanks for the replies. He's not an alcoholic, I think just a binge drinker. He doesn't drink every day or crave it. Its so hard after being loyal for so long to turn to him and say "I don't want this anymore". All that history, the kids etc but I feel that I am worth more, that he's not considoring me and my feelings and maybe that shows lack of respect for me? Why does he keep doing it? And though he says he will stop and never behave like it again, in my gut I feel it is too late for me. I think we all believe that our marriages and relationships are unique, that whilst marriages all around us fail, our own is so special that we can always overcome and I suppose its kind of a shock when we realise that it may not be the case. Bloody hell!!

He was in crown court and promised not to drink so much but since then has had so little control of his drinking that he has had 4 serious incidents? Sounds like an alcoholic to me, tbh. You don't have to drink every day to be one. A binge drinker is an alcoholic too.

Here's a good site which you may find useful. al-anon

Checked out the site breifly, VSS and it looks good. Yes, he obviously needs to sort out issues, whether its aggression or drinking or both and I think that even if he promises not to drink again, he will at some point unless he gets to the root of it. Tbh, I feel I'm at the point where I don't really care, as its too late for me. I want him to address things for his own sake and for the sake of the children, so they don't grow up with their fathers reputation hanging over them. I guess I'm looking to be told that its O.K to bail out now, but I worry how he will deal with it.

How he deals with it is down to him not you....sometimes people need to hit bottom before they can come back up

You are right, Upsadaisy, he does have to do it for himself and know how to deal with it. Its just that this Jekyl and Hyde thing is so hard to get my head around - so nice on a day to day basis and so horrible when drunk. I feel that if I end the marriage now then I would have failed him and our family. And I really hate the tag of alcoholic as hes not dependant on drink and as I said before, he doesn't drink that regularly. I feel over the last few weeks I've analysed my marriage so much, stripped away the crap and it all comes back to how I feel about him now, and I feel just empty and numb and kinda in a state of shock that I have voiced this nagging thought that has been in the back of my head for a long time. I always feel I have to do the right thing and ending the marriage seems so morally wrong, yet I know I don't have the energy or inclination to want to have to work hard to save it. Sorry for the ramblings, but posting on here like this is a bit like therapy! Also, I think that if I feel this detached from him, how can I ever get any feeling back. Could someone out there fast forward my life 6 months please (without increasing the grey hairs - they have started to emerge down below for gods sakes!!)

Someone who's been through life with an alcoholic should be able to give you some advice shortly, but the received wisdom is that by standing by him you are enabling him to continue his behaviour. So making him leave may actually be therapeutic for him as well as you. It will force him to confront his problem, or if he doesn't you will know there is nothing more that you could have done. As you recognise, this isn't just about you and your feelings but about your children, the fear they should not live with and the example they must learn not to follow.

Thankyou Anniegetyougun. I am sure I am doing the right thing here, by making him stay away and live outside the home. Its not that I feel I have to punish him, but want him to be out of his comfort zone so he can address his issues. I think he is in denial as he is convinced that I have started to see someone else and am having an affair, a thing he keeps bringing up which makes me even angrier. His take on the whole situation is that he knows he is aggressive when drunk, so he will just stop drinking - simple. But he doesn't have the memories that I do so for me its much harder. I am trying to make him see that love is shown by deeds, not words and no amount of saying "I won't ever drink again" is going to convince me to take him back as I worry that at some point he will lapse and I will find myself in the same situation, having to go through all this again.

I was in a relationship like this with charming charismatic man who would be violent and abusive when drunk, then claim not to remember and was very remorseful. Also I felt our relationship was "special" and we would weather the storms.

Kept splitting up/getting back together. But they dont change in my opinion up to you whether you want to deal with it anymore. It sounds as if you have had enough of it (justifiably so). Stick to your guns and move on - although I know this is very very hard.

It's not morally wrong to end a bad marriage.

Our children learn not by what we say, but by what we do. The hotwiring we give them in childhood is so strong, that even when they have insight, intelligence, therapy and determination, they often still can't escape falling into similar patterns of behaviour when it comes to relationships, to that of their parents.

Bailing out, as you describe it, may not be a wholly negative thing for your children. It may be a very constructive, useful way forward in terms of what they learn about how to conduct relationships. And as such, it's not immoral conduct ChristyG, don't beat yourself up about it.

You could go to couples counselling if you feel that would help. I would also recommend that you speak to the helpline of al-Anon, it really helped me recognise what had been going on in my relationship and in how much denial I had been about my xp's behaviour. It's not just the alcoholic who goes into denial, it's everyone around them as well. We all hate the label of alcoholic, which is why we do so much to avoid it.

Hi VSS, I see where you are coming from as regards to parents behaviour and whether we repeat the pattern ourselves. My own mother has always been relatively unhappy in her marriage but never addressed it and here she is at 60 and very unhappy and unfufilled but she feels its too late now. I do not want to make the same mistake. My marriage is not bad - DH is great in so many ways but I feel that the drinking thing may show underlying disrespect for me and that I can't tolerate. I will contact Al-Anon when the kids are not around and see if they can shed any light on this for me.

"He's not an alcoholic, I think just a binge drinker. He doesn't drink every day or crave it".

Hi Christie

Its not too late for you you know; its never too late. It's only too late when you're dead.

I picked up on your abvoe comment for good reason. Actually to be alcoholic you don't have to drink everyday or even to crave it all the time. His issues re drink are ongoing and complex; its not down to you to solve it for him. Whatever the truth is re him (and he is responsible for his own actions, not you) his past actions have affected you all to your detriment. In the end you just get dragged down further. He will drag you down with him and has done so to date.

You need to be aware as well that he made a conscious choice to start drinking.

I would say to you as well that he may well have to lose everything - his wife, his children, his house but even then he may still carry on drinking. There are no guarantees here.

All you can do is do the best you can for your own self and your children. He is not your responsibility and you may well ultimately need to walk away from him for good.

Whatever the truth is re him (and he certainly sounds like he has alcohol issues) he will destroy you and your family if you choose to stay. You can choose to ignore his behaviour, your children cannot.

Words are cheap; he has promised much but delivered little.

What are you teaching them about relationships?. We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents - what did yours teach you. And by turn what are you teaching your children now?.

Please speak to Al-anon; they can help you.

Alcoholics are selfish people and can also be very plausible. Their primary relationship is always with drink; everything else, absolutely everything else comes a distant second. These people are ill, alcoholism is an illness, but you can never reason with someone who is in the throes of addiction. He won't give up his behaviours unless he wants to and to me the will is not there to change.

If he cannot change then you must examine your own behaviours (e.g stop enabling). You can save your own self and your children from any more pain caused by him.

I echo Attila

He is in alcholic

This is something neither of you want to hear.
You need help
Al-Anon -020 7403 0888 support for families

My thoughts are with you because this is going to be very very tough.

O.K, so possibly he is an alcoholic - still hate that tag as it conjours up images of dirty unshaven men holding brown paper bags - and I know words are cheap. During the crown court incident he was encouraged to see a councellor and had 10 sessions with her. The outcome was that he feels vunerable when drunk and so behaves in the opposite way, aggressive and dominant. I think back now and wonder if he just went to the sessions so it would look good in court. I know where I am at now - he has a problem that he needs to address, but now I feel a failure if I don't stick around to help him through it. He says that I am throwing everything away just because of how he behaves when he's drunk but I say he already did that by behaving badly when he is. I know that before he drinks he is sober, so why is he not capable of drinking less and keeping that in his mind. His mother says I've always protected him and stood by him - thats me enabling him, isn't it? Its a very hard habit to break. My urge is to step forward and say, O.K, come back, we'll work through it, but you know that gut instinct, like when your child is a toddler and you see them in a really precarious situation and you want to leap forward and whip them out of danger, but something deep in your belly roots you to the ground, well, its that feeling with him. I know now that my children are slightly older and can climb rocks and do dangerous things, that that gut instinct to leave them to find out for themselves when they were smaller has paid off. I feel deep down that its what I need to do for DH and that in the long run, he will benefit from it, but its just so hard. Sorry for the rant - rain stopped work today so have been thinking too much!

Yes it's very very tough.

But you are showing so much insight as to how your relationship has worked and what you have to do to stop things being like this.

It is heartbreaking to give up. You feel like you've invested so much time and effort that you can't give up now and you feel like a failure for giving in.

But you're not. You're learning how to painfully move out of this unhealthy relationship into a healthier way of life.

Good luck Christy, I hope al-anon helps you whatever course of action you take.

ChristyC - you already know what you need to do by the sounds of it. Good luck.

ChristyC,

You need to redefine your own definitions of an alcoholic because the image of an unshaven man drinking from a brown paper bag is not just an out of date image, its just plain wrong.

"I know where I am at now - he has a problem that he needs to address, but now I feel a failure if I don't stick around to help him through it".

Re this comment of yours you are right with the first part of this sentence but completely and utterly dead wrong with the second. You will not be a "failure" if you don't stick around - you need to realise that you cannot help him. His Mum is right -you have enabled him to date and it has not helped. You have instead all been dragged down with him. Him being sent to a Crown Court must have been bloody awful for you as a family - you must have had a whole range of emotions not least of all embarrassment on your family unit.

He needs to reach his own rock bottom and even then he may not stop drinking. There are no guarantees. He is responsible for his own actions, not you. These are not your issues to address

If you really want to help him he must seek help on his own and have no contact whatsoever with you.

"He says that I am throwing everything away just because of how he behaves when he's drunk but I say he already did that by behaving badly when he is".

You are correct. It is typical of such people to project blame onto everyone else around them. You cannot also reason with such people. Alcoholics are by their very nature selfish.

If you are answerable to anyone it will be your children. They won't thank you for doing nothing if you ultimately choose to stay with such a man. They could well accuse you of putting him before them.

You need to seriously consider what you are teaching them about relationships - it is perfectly okay to leave an unhealthy one. You will do them a huge favour by teaching them that it is not okay for Mummy to be treated like this.

Do call Al-anon; they can help you if you yourself want helping.

Thankyou all for great words of wisdom, even if they are a little close to the bone! I've checked and there is an Al-Anon meeting in my local town next Tuesday so if I can pluck up the courage by then, I will attend - can I just turn up? I'm hoping that it may help me to be more resolute in the decision I have come to.

Christy you can just turn up or if you don't fancy doing that, call the al-anon helpline and ask who the contact person in that area is. Speak to him/ her beforehand, so that you feel you've spoken to at least one person there.