My DM is in favour of prostitution. I'm disgusted. What to say?

[Tinytoebeans]

This is a long standing opinion of hers, based on her idea that selling their body may be a last resort for some women and it's good that they should be able to make some money out of it rather than be helpless and starve. I think. Although I'm pretty sure this is a v naive view which doesn't take in the vast majority of situations. But if I'd point those out, she'd just say they were obviously not acceptable (coerced, for eg) but her main reasoning stands. And it prevents more rapes, apparently.

I hate prostitution with a passion. You enjoy sex, fine. Get on tinder. But even if you're one of the 'happy' prostitutes, you are still normalizing and enabling the practice of men thinking they can buy the use of a women's body to treat it (her) how they please. With all the disrespect for the gender which goes along with it. It also enables easy infidelity. (Yes, I have a partner in the forces, renowned for prostitute use, and its not a pleasant thought. ) Most things I have heard from men is that even if they wouldn't personally visit (really?) they don't see much wrong in anyone else using them.

As to preventing rapes? Well, I'm not sure the type of person to do that would get the same kind of thrill going to a prostitute, to put it bluntly.

Its not as if men are unable to keep it in their pants if horny. Why don't we expect similar behaviour from men and women? Ppl wouldn't generally expect a woman to go out to visit a prostitute if they were horny or not happy with/didn't have a partner around. The way this panders to men's base instincts and behaviour is pathetic.

I know I'm not the most eloquent of ppl and I don't want to have a big discussion with DM about it as I get soo angry with her view which ignores the vast majority of reality involved in the industry. Anyone have any good ideas as to what might educate her on the reality (I know she's on MN as well, hopefully she'll see this, if not I'll have some facts for next time) so she can see how her view isn't actually empowering for women, it's supporting part of a larger system of abuse. I despair that she seems to think it's 'cool' and empowering for women despite the larger issues she doesn't consider.

I'm personally not a fan of it but I see there is a market for it and as long as women are safe ie in certain states it's legalised and has rules, Amsterdam. Then I have no problem against it. I am also a youth worker so I've done some research and I have had questions from youths in the past surrounding it.

What I found helped form my opinion was watching various documentaries on the subject. Mostly bbc things ranging from different topics ie uk brothels, USA legalised ones etc. I also researched into the good and the bad side of it. Ie trafficking, drugs, rapes, sugar daddies.

In some places if done right it is proven to reduce cases of rape and STI transmission but in the UK because it is not legalised or has the safe guards in place there is not enough information and prostitution is done and used for the wrong reasons.

It's almost the same argument for legalising cannabis.

But as a whole ideology, how is that going to positively impact the rights and position of women in the world, whether legalized or not? The same kinds of ppl use it whether it's legal or not.

Meh
After 40 years as a woman I say go for it.
You're sat on a goldmine as it were.
Why give it for free, just to be treated like shit or cheated on, when you could get paid and give yourself a stable future?
What's the difference between offering sex in marriage and getting cash in hand from a punter? Both are a form of work!

YABU because you're saying prostitution encourages men to behave in misogynistic ways, but you are blaming women by doing so.
Men will always want sex.
May as well gain from it
Depends what you want the most.
If I were 18 again I'd reject any heterosexual relationship bar conception.
I'd go into high end escorting and give myself something solid and secure for letting someone ejaculate inside me, rather than thinking the bollocks that it is 'an expression of love'.

I agree with you, OP.

I think you outlined well why a lot of people feel uncomfortable with legalising prostitution.

My main problem with it, along with porn and other aspects of “liberal feminism” is that there is no challenge to men to treat women as better than objects for their pleasure. It is totally fine to pay a vulnerable woman for sex, pressure a gf into sex she isn’t comfortable with and indulging in certain links which degrade women, all in the name of being sex positive. Nah thanks.

Buy her "Paid For" by Rachel Moran for Christmas.

there is no challenge to men to treat women as better than objects for their pleasure

Exactly. As for the idea it prevents rapes, you will find reports and statistics (based on studies in America) to show this has no effect on total numbers of incidents, and porn consumption increased with easy availability of paid sex. I'm sure you could also find stats to prove the opposite, but surely we should be working on preventing those men raping in other ways rather than offering sex on a plate?

I'm not blaming women, I'm blaming the societal pressure that men are entitled to whatever they want, whether it's damaging to a wider number of individuals /relationships/ideals or not, without any form self denial/restraint/higher ideals. Poor men. What would they do if there were no longer any vaginas available to service them when horny??

Oh God, my mother would come out with shit like that and think she was so woke-on.

TheClitterati has a Xmas gift idea worth pondering there.

"Well, we'll have to agree to disagree" is what to say.

Happy hooker here and you can keep your total lack of experience of sex work, but stay in your lane.

Ford is a long standing poster who has posted at length about her line of work several times.

Sex work is work. We are all selling our bodies under capitalism. It doesn't sound like you've ever been a sex worker, so perhaps get off the high horse a bit eh.

The rape prevention bit is awful but it's not like you're going to change her mind are you?

If you think prostitution is disgusting, save your energy and use it to actually contribute to a cause that gives women other choices, gets them out of trafficking situations, etc. Arguing with your mother about it helps exactly no one.

nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

Some info here

I think the main thing for me is that the women I actually know who are or have been involved have trauma from it and advocate for the Nordic model.

Plus the average amount women get in my town is pitifully low.
No amount is enough but the idea you're able to live well on it seems unlikely to match with reality.

...you are still normalizing and enabling the practice of men thinking they can buy the use of a women's body to treat it (her) how they please. With all the disrespect for the gender which goes along with it.
Yep, a punter's misogynistic behaviour is the prostitute's fault OP.

as long as women are safe ie in certain states it's legalised

It being legal doesn't make it necessarily safe. Trafficking and rape can still happen.

Op I agree with your mother. Until you have starving children who's to say what you will do. I think she's looking at it from a worldly pov. She doesn't seem to like it but sees it and I quote a last resort.

I don't agree it prevents rape. Prostitutes are raped.

But even if you're one of the 'happy' prostitutes, you are still normalizing and enabling you are blaming women.

Arguing with your mother about it helps exactly no one.
Not my point though is it? I'm pretty astounded that just because there are a small proportion of happy hookers around (hi ford) that prostitution as a whole is regarded as empowering to women. Because that's not really correct, is it? Taking the whole associated issues (and a majority of abuse) into account.

I've no issue with you personally ford, but I do have issue with the fact that (AFAIK from reading previous comments), you do not see any difference in servicing a single guy or a married with kids guy cheating on his wife. Why would you enable/encourage ppl in this? I'm sure it's just business to you and it's up to the individual if they want to behave like a scumbag, of course, but the normalisation of prostitution is (in my opinion, based on what I have heard about colleagues/dh colleagues) leading many ppl (men) to normalize cheating because it's easily available and exciting. And surely that's not a good thing. I mention that because it's personally much closer to home to most of us than the realities of trafficked women/children, etc. Linked to excessive (and more extreme) porn consumption, which is also becoming normalized, and used by increasingly younger individuals. And is proving to be damaging in many ways. Just take the number of women on here who discover their dp has seen a prostitute. I don't think any of them defended prostitution. And it's not just a matter of saying the dp should have better morals. We apparently only have so much willpower, if you're in a position where prostitutes are easily available, and it's become normalized behaviour in your social/work circles, chances are you're going to be pretty interested and fail at some point.

Someone compared it to legalizing drugs. As far as I know, this argument is largely still geared towards pain relief? Which is completely different.

Yep, a punter's misogynistic behaviour is the prostitute's fault OP.
Totally not what I said. Why aren't we pressurizing those men to deal with their misogyny rather than provide the means for them to indulge it?

Over the years many MNetters have posted about their DP's infidelity. The vast majority of them did not involve prostitutes. Prostitute's are not to blame for men's infidelity OP.

I'm not in favour of prostitution and I wish it didn't exist, but unless you know each of those womens stories then you can't understand that for some of the women it may be their last resort, standing on the street corner that night may be the difference between them/their child eating or going without a meal that day..(I know some will say they can apply for benefits, but benefits take time to.come through and not everyone is entitled ...so for those who have tried to get jobs day after day, not entitled to benefits and down to their last few quid and no where to turn it's easy to understand how they have turned to prostitution as a last resort...

Your mother is entitled to her opinion , you don't have to agree with her, same as you are entitled to your opinion and she doesn't have to agree with you...

Until you have starving children who's to say what you will do. I think she's looking at it from a worldly pov. She doesn't seem to like it but sees it and I quote a last resort.

True, but I don't think many proportionally are actually doing it to feed their starving children, are they? But if that was the only option, I could understand it. And to be clearer, she said as a last resort job (so not considering living on government aid instead), but sees it as empowering for a woman to be able to sell sex in any circumstance. Not considering any of the wider issues and how others are affected. Which is like saying if I'm clever enough to make my own hard drugs, it's empowering for me to be able to sell them, and not taking into account the wider issues of how others are affected?

Why aren't we pressurizing those men to deal with their misogyny
IDK OP, but perhaps you could give some insight. Why have you started a thread about women being wrong (your mother and female sex workers) on a predominantly female site instead of posting about misogyny and infidelity on a predominantly male site?

Prostitute's are not to blame for men's infidelity OP
And again missing the point dione

There are male prostitutes too you know.

People become prostitutes for all sorts of reasons and of course some are exploited and coerced into it, have addictions etc.

However there are plenty who choose to be prostitutes, maybe just for a while, to make a lot of money. They are intelligent, articulate woman who can pick and choose their clients, usually end up with a couple of regulars. They are not 'pimped' but use an agency to find them clients, for which they pay a set fee.

Many men who go to prostitutes are lonely, unhappy people and sex is only part of what they want.

You'd be surprised at the amount of young students who are on the game, working through an agency. Being a student frequently means being very poor for quite a long time and meeting a man, often being wined and dined and spending an hour or so in bed with him afterwards is preferable to being half starved and living in grotty accommodation.

So it's not all bad.

Dione, I'm posting on a female led site because its one I use. Why do i have to explain that? I'm not blaming women for the fact that men have entitlement issues, of course I don't have the answers. But society as a whole is now seeing the damaging effects of normalizing porn, and I believe sex work is going the same route. Of course DM is entitled to her own opinion, but it seems rather blinkered to cheer on prostitution for empowering women (does it really?) when it causes many more problems than it solves. You tell the trafficked and abused women how empowered they are. That's why I'm concerned about her 'opinion'. It would be a different matter if she was saying in a situation where your kids would starve it is empowering, but that's not what she's saying. Does prostitution empower women as a whole, or has it resulted in proportionally more abuse and degradation by men?

Many men who go to prostitutes are lonely, unhappy people and sex is only part of what they want.
And I'm pretty sure that most aren't.

OP if you are a regular MN user, you will have expected questions regarding this being your first post under this user name.

but it seems rather blinkered to cheer on prostitution for empowering women

I don't think that your mother's idea that selling their body may be a last resort for some women and it's good that they should be able to make some money out of it rather than be helpless and starve. is cheering on prostitution as being empowering.