My DM is in favour of prostitution. I'm disgusted. What to say?

[Tinytoebeans]

This is a long standing opinion of hers, based on her idea that selling their body may be a last resort for some women and it's good that they should be able to make some money out of it rather than be helpless and starve. I think. Although I'm pretty sure this is a v naive view which doesn't take in the vast majority of situations. But if I'd point those out, she'd just say they were obviously not acceptable (coerced, for eg) but her main reasoning stands. And it prevents more rapes, apparently.

I hate prostitution with a passion. You enjoy sex, fine. Get on tinder. But even if you're one of the 'happy' prostitutes, you are still normalizing and enabling the practice of men thinking they can buy the use of a women's body to treat it (her) how they please. With all the disrespect for the gender which goes along with it. It also enables easy infidelity. (Yes, I have a partner in the forces, renowned for prostitute use, and its not a pleasant thought. ) Most things I have heard from men is that even if they wouldn't personally visit (really?) they don't see much wrong in anyone else using them.

As to preventing rapes? Well, I'm not sure the type of person to do that would get the same kind of thrill going to a prostitute, to put it bluntly.

Its not as if men are unable to keep it in their pants if horny. Why don't we expect similar behaviour from men and women? Ppl wouldn't generally expect a woman to go out to visit a prostitute if they were horny or not happy with/didn't have a partner around. The way this panders to men's base instincts and behaviour is pathetic.

I know I'm not the most eloquent of ppl and I don't want to have a big discussion with DM about it as I get soo angry with her view which ignores the vast majority of reality involved in the industry. Anyone have any good ideas as to what might educate her on the reality (I know she's on MN as well, hopefully she'll see this, if not I'll have some facts for next time) so she can see how her view isn't actually empowering for women, it's supporting part of a larger system of abuse. I despair that she seems to think it's 'cool' and empowering for women despite the larger issues she doesn't consider.

OP you never acknowledged my comment about being against prostitution for moral reasons yet buying cheap high street clothes made by children forced into working for 50p a day.

This one is rolled out with the predictability of the sun rising in the East.

There are so many issues around this, which have been no doubt stated as nauseum in previous threads. In any case you have he purposefully obtuse not to see any differences.

(Or even just that acknowledge that when people become aware of fast fashion exploitation, they were unhappy and the brands responded by claiming they would change the production processes on response; whether they have actually done it and stuck to it, or are just playing cat and mouse with consumers is.a separate issue ... Nonetheless it was generally seen as unacceptable and us an ongoing issue).

I think marriage is quite often a form of prostitution if you stop and think about it?

Traditional marriage is more than sex for being kept - it is house work/management, childcare, home making, cooking, cleaning, , care of elderly and dependant relatives, company etc. for being kept. Plus there is the compensation for not being able to earn while doing the above

... Bearing in mind about 50% of Victorian women, for example, actually worked outside the home (mostly in domestic service and factories) so they werent even being "kept".

In modern marriage many women do the majority of the above - and bring in 50% or more of the income, so men are on a pig's back.

Problem is it can be pretty well paid, flexible hours, doesn’t require any special talent or educational qualifications or degrees etc. I personally and genuinely would rather be in a council flat working part time at Tesco’s (I don’t) and have my integrity- I can’t think of anything I find more revolting than having to have sex with people I don’t want to or ‘oerfirm’ On camera like a performing seal—but each to his own I guess. I wish people wouldn’t go on about those with starving children forced into it— yep there are people pushed into it, often by men— but plenty are just greedy and materialistic and want to earn good money in flexible hours without any other high paid skills to be able to do that .

Whenever you take something that there is a clear demand for and make it illegal, it doesn't go away, you just put the business out of sight of the checks and balances that society places on corporations. This is were most of the issues with prostitution (as it stands in this country) lay.
I can sell my body for medical research with no legal trouble at all, but I can't do the same with sex. This is without considering the fact that all work is selling of your body.
I buy the body of a massage therapist or hairdresser for an hour at a time, that doesn't mean I treat them poorly.
I think whenever something is made illegal, there has to be some real consideration over whether it should actually be illegal. Prostitution, unlike murder or theft, is pretty divisive. There's no widely accepted argument against it because your attitude towards it is basically a reflection or your attitude towards sex as a whole.

Cleaning bogs, wiping arses both young and old, serving pints to aggressive handsy punters, and getting a mouthful from a dissatisfied customer are not jobs which "empower" women, yet they are jobs which women have to do day in, day out.

I'm pleased if your job is "empowering" but for many women, they do what they can to pay the bills.

Who is to say that lying on one's back in a warm flat is any worse than scrubbing period stains off someone else's sheets, or being married to a rich man who doesn't allow you to do anything independently and keeps a tight rein on the purse strings according to your "good behaviour"

There's a world of difference between drug addicted street walkers and the sort of woman who can keep her wits about her and who is doing it for non drug related reasons.

I don't particularly like it myself and I don't think I could do it unless I was desperate, but people have a whole range of attitudes to sex, bodies, and emotions and who am I to judge.

Empowered, forsooth

And of course prostitutes are being exploited by men. Women's bodies and labour are exploited by men in both the workplace and domestic sphere all the fucking time. It's a laugh that it's only a problem when the exploitation involves the woman exchanging her sexual services for cold hard cash,because madonna and whore innit. Hope you're paying your cleaner a good wage OP, if you have one.

Why do you have such a strong opinion on what another women does with her own body?

You don’t like prostitution? Great don’t do it! Not that I think it’s a good thing but everyone has free will to choose what they want to do with their own body and if someone choose to make money from that then who do you think you are to judge them? You don’t know anyone’s story and mindset so jump of your high horse and mind your own business! 🤫

It’s degrading, it’s the complete opposite of empowering.
Allowing yourself to be used for money by every Tom dick and Harry.
I couldn’t perform sexual acts to someone I didn’t find attractive or liked as a person. The thought makes me sick.
Most mothers would be horrified if their daughter became a prostitute.

I would much rather have my self respect.

@GilbertMarkham

'But at some point they usually have to be alone with the client, and they take a massive risk.'

In Ireland recently 2 prostitutes were arrested for working together for safety. In Ireland and Britain women can work safely but not legally or legally but not safely. In New Zealand several women can work together for safety legally and without having to ask for permission from anyone. There has been some violence in New Zealand but it never seems to be when women work together for safety.

@Imoldandlost

There was a AMA thread here a while back talking about her experiences as a prostitute. Poor girls life was ruined not to mention her mental health. It’s a horrific lifestyle. Whoever is in the game is deluded to defend it.

It depends on the individual.

I've known some women who did it when they were young at a time when they needed money. They didn't make a career out of prostitution but spent six months to a year working for an agency who took a small commission for introductions. They look back on it as an interesting experience and were glad to make enough money to pay for whatever they needed at the time.

@sanssherif

Meh After 40 years as a woman I say go for it. You're sat on a goldmine as it were. Why give it for free, just to be treated like shit or cheated on, when you could get paid and give yourself a stable future? What's the difference between offering sex in marriage and getting cash in hand from a punter? Both are a form of work!

YABU because you're saying prostitution encourages men to behave in misogynistic ways, but you are blaming women by doing so.
Men will always want sex.
May as well gain from it
Depends what you want the most.
If I were 18 again I'd reject any heterosexual relationship bar conception.
I'd go into high end escorting and give myself something solid and secure for letting someone ejaculate inside me, rather than thinking the bollocks that it is 'an expression of love'.

I find your post quite sad. The only woman I knew who did escorting once thought it would be ok, given the terrible track history she had with men and the lack of trust she developed. She really didn't like it, felt degraded afterwards and never did it again.

In a healthy functioning relationship, a woman shouldn't be 'offering' sex. She is an equal partner who mutually enjoys sexual activity, who does not need to surrender it for shelter or money as if she were a prostitute.

@ReallySpicyCurry

Cleaning bogs, wiping arses both young and old, serving pints to aggressive handsy punters, and getting a mouthful from a dissatisfied customer are not jobs which "empower" women, yet they are jobs which women have to do day in, day out.

I'm pleased if your job is "empowering" but for many women, they do what they can to pay the bills.

Who is to say that lying on one's back in a warm flat is any worse than scrubbing period stains off someone else's sheets, or being married to a rich man who doesn't allow you to do anything independently and keeps a tight rein on the purse strings according to your "good behaviour"

There's a world of difference between drug addicted street walkers and the sort of woman who can keep her wits about her and who is doing it for non drug related reasons.

I don't particularly like it myself and I don't think I could do it unless I was desperate, but people have a whole range of attitudes to sex, bodies, and emotions and who am I to judge.

Empowered, forsooth

Who is to say that lying on one's back in a warm flat is any worse

Because for one thing, prostitution is the only 'job' where it involves your customer, your boss physically entering you. It's work that can leave you with sexual diseases, make you pregnant or rape you Women frequently disassociate themselves from their bodies which is exactly what happens to many trauma victims. A small minority might think it's ok (usually you'll find that those women gave been already been abused or sexually traumatised in childhood) but otherwise it's dangerous and degrading in a way no other job is.

@lotsagossip Because unfortunately, the normalisation of it has an effect on all women. It should never be seen as an alternative career option, which it is increasingly I feel it is and lobbied to be by the sex industry.

@EarthSight
Whether it's degrading or not is a matter of opinion but when it is dangerous that is because of the legal situation. Women often like to work together in a flat for safety but that's not allowed. Not in Britain and not in any Nordic model country, despite them saying they don't arrest sex workers.

In Soho there are always two women in a flat. There haven't been any murders there since 1947. Camille Gordon wasn't a sex worker, she worked in a clip joint.

There is no evidence that sex workers get more STDs or have unwanted pregnancies. Rape and PTSD occur with drug-addicted street prostitutes who have never been more than 10% of sex workers. Crackdowns make it even worse for them: eg the 1993 law in Ireland that pushed women into the hands of violent pimps. Drug addicts face trauma whether they are sex workers or not.

People like to pretend that what is true for drug addicts is true for all sex workers but that is misleading people.

Limeandlemon

Most mothers would be horrified if their daughter became a prostitute.

Who would you rather have as a daughter? Dr Brooke Magnanti who used to be a sex worker, wrote about it then went on to become a statistician? Her book The Sex Myth refutes many of the arguments of the prohibitionists, such as the belief that the number of rapes increased in Camden after 3 lap dancing clubs opened there. She makes them look right idiots.

Or Rachel Moran who went on national radio and gave her false statistic which basically said that if you support legalization women will die. Which is the opposite of what the statistics were actually showing us. Laura Lee who was also a sex worker found the truth about that statistic, which is important for women's safety.

I'd rather have Dr Magnanti or Laura Lee for a daughter than Rachel Moran, but if my daughter was doing it I would want her to be safe. So I support the New Zealand model where women can work together for safety, keep the profits for themselves and make their own rules.

Hi OP,

I agree with you totally about prostitution. If you want evidence to present to your DM you might be best off posting in feminist chat.

Though at the end of the day, your mum will have her own opinions, it's likely to end up one of those ' accept the things you cannot change' situations.

Hi OP,

If you want evidence to present to your DM you might be best off posting in feminist chat.

Always remember that a lot of the Radical Feminist 'evidence' is made up. Here are the most common lies.

38% of Irish prostitutes have attempted suicide. This comes from a study of a small group of Dublin drug-addicted street prostitutes in the 1990s.

90% of prostitutes want to exit. This comes from Melissa Farley who consistently pretends that what is true of drug-addicted street prostitutes is also true of prostitutes in general whereas they have never been more than 10%.

127 prostitutes were murdered in the Netherlands since legalization there. Not all of these women were prostitutes and most were murdered before legalization not after.

and the worst lie of all:-
The proportion of men who pay for sex in Sweden dropped from 13% to 8% after the law that criminalizes men who pay for sex. The proportion of active sex buyers increased from 1.3% to 1.8%. The figure they give is for men who have paid for sex at some time in their lives, which sounds similar but statistics like that give misleading rises and falls when older generations become too old to participate in surveys. That figure went back up to more than 10%, another thing they don't tell you. If you don't believe me look in the 2014 or 2015 document by Endrit Mujaj and Amanda Netscher. It's the only one with all the relevant data, the other are very parsimonious with the facts.

I'm not keen on the idea of prostitution. I watched a TV programme about a brothel not long ago. They tried to normalize it all. But it was sleazy. A mother and daughter ran the show but they weren't prostitutes. I think yes it was exploitation. I certainly wouldn't approve of it being made legal.

If it is empowering then why is it all done anonymously?

@Viviennemary

That must have been the one in Sheffield. It's available on YouTube. Brothels are always going to be sleazy but it wasn't exploitation. Prostitution isn't illegal but brothel-keeping is.

@Antonov

Sex workers and their clients can be targeted by evangelical christians or others. In this documentary though, which might have been the one that the mother of the person who started this thread saw, it wasn't anonymous. I think they named the mother and daughter who ran the brothel. Although the real names of the sex workers weren't given, you could see their faces. They have nothing to be ashamed of. I think it even showed one of the women in her local market. She seemed like a very nice person.

A Very British Brothel

Maybe if you get so angry , if someone disagrees with you, you should concentrate on that for a while

Every woman has sold their body to some extent, money doesn’t have to exchange hands.

I’ve been a sex worker, it wasn’t so bad!

Hmmmm I may be naive, but tbh as long as nobody is being pressured, coerced into it or feel like they have no other choice I don’t see anything wrong with it. If people want to pay for that, there are male sex workers and I’m sure LGBTQ sex workers. Doesn’t always necessarily mean anything misogynistic or that anyone is being treated with disrespect. Different to sex in love or people just enjoying sex cos they just want to. The big issue is there ARE still some men with a mysoginistic attitude and some women who enable it, nothing to do with prostitution. I’ve got more of an issue with people in LTR thinking they’ve got to lay back and think of Britain no matter how much they don’t want to because they think men “need” it or it’s their “duty” and scared this is what they have to do to avoid being on their own.