My DM is in favour of prostitution. I'm disgusted. What to say?

[Tinytoebeans]

This is a long standing opinion of hers, based on her idea that selling their body may be a last resort for some women and it's good that they should be able to make some money out of it rather than be helpless and starve. I think. Although I'm pretty sure this is a v naive view which doesn't take in the vast majority of situations. But if I'd point those out, she'd just say they were obviously not acceptable (coerced, for eg) but her main reasoning stands. And it prevents more rapes, apparently.

I hate prostitution with a passion. You enjoy sex, fine. Get on tinder. But even if you're one of the 'happy' prostitutes, you are still normalizing and enabling the practice of men thinking they can buy the use of a women's body to treat it (her) how they please. With all the disrespect for the gender which goes along with it. It also enables easy infidelity. (Yes, I have a partner in the forces, renowned for prostitute use, and its not a pleasant thought. ) Most things I have heard from men is that even if they wouldn't personally visit (really?) they don't see much wrong in anyone else using them.

As to preventing rapes? Well, I'm not sure the type of person to do that would get the same kind of thrill going to a prostitute, to put it bluntly.

Its not as if men are unable to keep it in their pants if horny. Why don't we expect similar behaviour from men and women? Ppl wouldn't generally expect a woman to go out to visit a prostitute if they were horny or not happy with/didn't have a partner around. The way this panders to men's base instincts and behaviour is pathetic.

I know I'm not the most eloquent of ppl and I don't want to have a big discussion with DM about it as I get soo angry with her view which ignores the vast majority of reality involved in the industry. Anyone have any good ideas as to what might educate her on the reality (I know she's on MN as well, hopefully she'll see this, if not I'll have some facts for next time) so she can see how her view isn't actually empowering for women, it's supporting part of a larger system of abuse. I despair that she seems to think it's 'cool' and empowering for women despite the larger issues she doesn't consider.

Tinytoebeans re reading your OP, I think your DM is really against women being in desperate circumstances and facing starvation rather than being pro prostitition!

My stance as a guy is this: Let's pretend (and we're definitely pretending here) that 99% of prostitutes were happy with their work, and 1% were coerced into it through whatever means.

That means that there's a 1% chance I'm committing rape. The only acceptable chance is 0% - because I cannot really know. Now obviously the figures are different and I believe those that willingly enter the business and happily go about it are in the minority, so it's actually more than likely that I'm (in my eyes) committing a sex offense.

It's maybe unfair on those (such as NotTheFordType, whose posts I have read) who are comfortable with their profession - and of course I completely recognise the right for a woman to use her body how hse chooses to.

But I can't shake the feeling that between the clearly unhappy prostitutes, and the genuinely happy ones, there's a broad middle ground of ones who know how to wear a smile for their punters but are dying inside from it. Paying for sex with one from that category just feels like rape to me, and I don't know how a man can be totally sure they're not in that situation.

Does that make sense?

I lived in an Asian country that was a sex tourist destination for several years. Started off disgusted. Ending up realising that uneducated women had really only two choices: slave in a rice field from early morning to dark for a hand to mouth existence totally dominated by their father and seeing the same life for their children OR sex work with financial rewards, independence and a chance to educate themselves and their children. I know which one I would prefer.

I am not praising the system, but it's the reality and women have to survive in the reality they live in. I contribute to grass root charities there that work on education and training women and girls to be able to get jobs in other occupations. Perhaps you could sit with your mum and research and donate such charities. She can then spout her empowerment angle while doing something to eradicate the need for sex working.

To be honest, most of the sex tourists were deluded old farts who persuaded themselves it was true love and they were God's gift to beautiful women, rather than just wanting a cheap shag without consequences. Saw many happy marraiges, not in a conventional western sense, come out of sex work encounters.

Whatever you think about prostitution, it's clear from this thread and the thousands of debates like it, that it is a very complex issue, morally and practically. That being the case, it's not really surprising that you and ypur mother have different views. You should give her a break.

I sympathise with the mum 😏

Why not ask her to provide some links supporting her view and ask her what she feels is compelling about those arguments.

If the only thing to be discussed is "does prostitution empower all women" then there is no discussion to be had.

Nothing empowers everyone. There is no profession that doesn't disempower someone along the way.

If your mother believes prostitution empowers all women (I doubt that's what she said but anyway), then it sounds like she's not great at forming an argument (it may run in the family) and as a result, any argument you rebut with won't do much good anyway.

Again - if you feel angry about prostitution, save your anger for doing something constructive about the problem you perceive. Perhaps also take a moment to quantify what it is you want to see change... do you want women to have other choices? Because they may still choose prostitution. You want prostitution made illegal?.because that will result in more violence against sex workers...

There isn’t really right or wrong about this - I don’t think prostitution is particularly empowering or cool but neither do I agree that it necessarily normalises or supports wider system of abuse; it certainly reflects those wider systems in that the majority of prostitutes are not belle du jour and many (most?) are in fact vulnerable individuals, but your argument that buying sex is inherently abusive and misogynistic is subjective. You can certainly make that case but it’s not the definitive truth of the matter.

I 100% agree OP. I don't think there is ever a scenario where it's ok, any normalisation or purchasing a woman's body is wrong.

You won't be able to change your DMs views though I doubt

A family member of mine saved her DM and her DC from starvation by "going with (allied) soldiers".
She learned to despise men, but was respected for what she did by her family - and no, there was no other way.

It is never ok to purchase a woman or mans body. As a number of prostitutes are trafficked, underage, drug users, then in my view people who use prostitutes are rapists as it is not possible to say the women involved is giving consent. Those sex tourists mentioned above are not deluded men they are men who do not care about consent.

This thread is a good example why I don't tell my DD a lot of my opinions. She can think whatever she likes but her need to 'fix' my views is pretty tedious.

if you're commenting, please comment on that issue, which have to keep repeating - does prostitution empower all women?

Then why did you start the thread with title
"I'm disgusted. What to say?" & "I despair that she seems to think..."

You can despair of your mother. Be disgusted by her. It's allowed. Go for it. Knock yourself out.

If we are all ok with prostitution what was the problem with those charity workers who used prostitutes in the countries they were providing aid for. All hunky dorey surely. After all just another form of capitalism.

If you want to access the research and statistics that prove your DM wrong, why not post this thread on Feminism Chat, Tinytoebeans? There are women on there who really know their stuff.

I think you are just a bit prejudiced OP. Provided that prostitutes (not only women, men do it too although there are far fewer of them) are provided with the necessary legal protections I don't see why they shouldn't be able to sell sex if they want to. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to do it but as a last resort I would. Its better than going on benefits at any rate. I do however take issue with the way prostitution is dealt with in Britain. For one brothels should be legal. They provide prostitutes with reassurance and physical safety, they provide client with the same, they also introduce work to prostitutes and offer more choice to clients. If they were legalised and properly regulated then this would benefit everyone. The reality of prostitution is much like abortion. It isn't pleasant. There aresny people who morally oppose it. But it is a choice that some women make. Criminalising it just means that it goes underground and occurs in an unsafe manner causing many women injury or death.

@birdsdestiny they weren't prostitutes. They were child. Victims of sex trafficking. You might as well ask 'if we're all so opposed to slave labour why are we perfectly happy for unskilled labourers to work on cotton farms?'.

@beeefcake modeling springs to mind. Wetnursing is another (albeit historical). Porn stars. Pretty much anything that requires a female body. It's not like prostitution is selling a body (that would be slavery) it is selling a particular service. In a regulated market prostitutes sell specific services and anything else is a breach of contract. The only reason this isn't a reality for most prostitutes is because the market is not set up to protect their interests.

What to say? You say nothing. You know her views, she knows yours. She feels no need to despise you for yours. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Your mum has a different opinion to you.

Why do you have to say anything to her about it? Why not just consider life too short and have enjoyable conversations with her about things you agree on/aren't upsettingly controversial to you?

I am confused about what you are saying racecardriver. Are you talking about the Oxfam scandal. That's what I am referring to . I am sure some of them were underage. But the investigations into the behaviour of Oxfam staff were mainly around the use of prostitutes in disaster areas. There were concerns that some may have been underage, but there was also outrage that those workers paid local women for sex. If prostitution is ok then why was this such a concern. It was not only about children and those who has been trafficked. It was women in a desperate situation being fucked for money by those charity workers.

🙄

If we are all ok with prostitution what was the problem with those charity workers who used prostitutes in the countries they were providing aid for.
That's a quare leap birds. No one has said "we're all OK with prostitution". I think we're all not ok with blaming female sex workers for men's misogyny and infidelity.

I dont see how the Oxfam scandal can be compared to prostitution at all. Predatory men going to disaster areas and fucking women, boys and girls, then using the excuse 'they were prostitutes'. No, they weren't. They were people taken advantage of in extremely desperate circumstances.

I spent some of my school years in Caribbean, we all knew as standard to dodge priests and aid workers who were ways trying to waylay you. My DDs here in UK don't have to face that on a daily basis.

I don't know how any woman here can trust her man if he's going out to disaster areas to do 'good works'. They should just send women, the men are a scourge you don't know the half of it over here. Albeit women aid workers turn a blind eye to goings on

"May' have been underage? Most victims were.

Why not use a prostitution model of another country, instead of implying well if prostitution is ok then what aids workers did can't be seen as bad then.

Sorry Dionne but there have been many posters on here saying it is just a job, another part of capitalism etc etc. Its not a leap to ask if its just a job why was oxfam staff buying prostitutes in Haiti, and Chad such a problem. I have just seen a lovely quote in The Independent by the pro prostitution lobby saying ' using prostitutes is not sexual misconduct, many of the women in Haiti may have been grateful for that sexwork' . Sounds quite similar to what people on here have been saying. Under no circumstances am I blaming those women I am blaming the men who use them.

Are people just going to go ahead and ignore any differences between an independent empowered woman making an informed career choice in a safe environment with laws that protect her rights; and people who have lost everything, are totally disempowered, desperate, are vulnerable in age and situation, and caught up in a natural disaster? Right-ho.