My DM is in favour of prostitution. I'm disgusted. What to say?

[Tinytoebeans]

This is a long standing opinion of hers, based on her idea that selling their body may be a last resort for some women and it's good that they should be able to make some money out of it rather than be helpless and starve. I think. Although I'm pretty sure this is a v naive view which doesn't take in the vast majority of situations. But if I'd point those out, she'd just say they were obviously not acceptable (coerced, for eg) but her main reasoning stands. And it prevents more rapes, apparently.

I hate prostitution with a passion. You enjoy sex, fine. Get on tinder. But even if you're one of the 'happy' prostitutes, you are still normalizing and enabling the practice of men thinking they can buy the use of a women's body to treat it (her) how they please. With all the disrespect for the gender which goes along with it. It also enables easy infidelity. (Yes, I have a partner in the forces, renowned for prostitute use, and its not a pleasant thought. ) Most things I have heard from men is that even if they wouldn't personally visit (really?) they don't see much wrong in anyone else using them.

As to preventing rapes? Well, I'm not sure the type of person to do that would get the same kind of thrill going to a prostitute, to put it bluntly.

Its not as if men are unable to keep it in their pants if horny. Why don't we expect similar behaviour from men and women? Ppl wouldn't generally expect a woman to go out to visit a prostitute if they were horny or not happy with/didn't have a partner around. The way this panders to men's base instincts and behaviour is pathetic.

I know I'm not the most eloquent of ppl and I don't want to have a big discussion with DM about it as I get soo angry with her view which ignores the vast majority of reality involved in the industry. Anyone have any good ideas as to what might educate her on the reality (I know she's on MN as well, hopefully she'll see this, if not I'll have some facts for next time) so she can see how her view isn't actually empowering for women, it's supporting part of a larger system of abuse. I despair that she seems to think it's 'cool' and empowering for women despite the larger issues she doesn't consider.

So maybe the problem is just down to the users? But that's never going to be regulated, is it? Single men with a healthy respect for women (or vice versa) - OK. Attached men/those who don't respect women etc - not okay. Starts to get a bit silly, doesn't it?
As with everything, I thought the way things were dealt with on a societal scale was by going down the route which was best for the majority. So, are the majority happy, independent hookers? Are the majority of ppl affected by prostitution positively affected and in favour? I'm not sure they are. (And chances are someone will now come on and tell me I couldn't possibly know, not being in the industry myself )

Dione, as I said, my DM is on mn, hence the name change because I don't want all my previous posts open to scrutiny. And I have specifically pointed out that she sees prostitution as empowering to women, because she has said this. I am not just reading things into her comments. I had thought this was clear in my previous posts, but maybe not.

And I have also said that she sees it as empowering overall (even if there are no starving children involved).

So maybe the problem is just down to the users?
Yes. Men's misogyny is their fault. Men's infidelity is their fault. Men respecting women would be best for the majority.

So why is it made easier for them to indulge in their misogyny and infidelity?

And I have specifically pointed out that she sees prostitution as empowering to women, because she has said this. I am not just reading things into her comments.

No, you said she seems to think it's 'cool' and empowering for women. Her "seeming" to think things (your judgement) is not the same as her actually saying things.

You tell the trafficked and abused women how empowered they are. That's why I'm concerned about her 'opinion'.

You make no sense at all. Like - you haven't even got a point. You're arguing with your mother about prostitution because... You don't agree with her opinion?

No-one is globally "empowered" by work in a capitalist system. We are all exploited..some more than others. Sex work is no different.

What makes sex work dangerous is the stigma we have around sex and sex workers. If you want to reduce the harm of sex work (is that your goal? Unclear), then work to reduce stigma around sex ... Arguing with your mother doesn't do that. Hth

If every prostitute gave up work tomorrow, misogyny and infidelity would still be as easy for men as it was yesterday.

Have you considered accepting your DM has a different opinion and talking about something else? I can go days and days without talking about prostitution sometimes.

Maybe Brexit, trans rights and Jeremy Corbyn. They seem like nice non contentious issues.

I have much more issue with prostitution where people do have starving children to feed than I do where there is no economic co-ercion and people have made a choice.

You are clearly believe your views very strongly. I don’t agree with you at all, and it’s not something that I don’t know anything about by any means, but we’re not here to have a competition about who knows most about sex work.

Why isn’t it ok for you and your mum to feel differently about this? Why do you need to “educate” her? Maybe she is being naive, maybe she just has a difference of opinion. If she isn’t going to procure or become a sex worker then it probably doesn’t need to affect you.

This has gone off on a tangent somewhat. I know ppl are entitled to different opinions, I'm not saying they aren't. I'm not arguing because I just want her to agree with me. What I do think I should address, as a woman who has more knowledge of other related issues, is the fact that she talks of prostitution as empowering to women in general, and as a whole gender. There is no 'seems to', I corrected the semantics in a later post, Dione. The 'seems to think' bit related to it being 'cool', not related to it being empowering. That was obviously poor choice of words. I agree that different circumstances require different actions (starving children), but to state that prostitution empowers [all] women, without taking account of the related issues, seems blinkered and naive. Hence why I would like to educate her on the wider issues of the sex industry.

And it's not just a matter of saying the dp should have better morals. We apparently only have so much willpower, if you're in a position where prostitutes are easily available, and it's become normalized behaviour in your social/work circles, chances are you're going to be pretty interested and fail at some point.

It is absolutely the case that the men should have better morals. If they don't have sufficient will power to not pay a woman for sex that is completely down to them. And if they don't have the will power to stay faithful to their partners because all their mates are slagging around, they too will find a way of shagging around. Either picking up women in RL venues or by using dating Apps. Prostitutes are not responsible for misogynists and cheats.

So maybe the problem is just down to the users? But that's never going to be regulated, is it? Single men with a healthy respect for women (or vice versa) - OK. Attached men/those who don't respect women etc - not okay. Starts to get a bit silly, doesn't it?

You want to ban prostitution because some of the men who partake are attached/mysogynistic?

Dione, yes, I agree, men should have better morals. But don't you see that by normalising prostitution those morals become compromised and changed? Porn was normalized, now we are seeing increasing numbers of our young women pressurized into anal sex and other typically viewed porn stereotypes because that's what young men are seeing as normal. That's a bit off track, but essentially a similar argument.
Again, I have not said prostitutes are responsible for misogynists and cheats. But you are intent on presenting my opinion as something different to what I have stated.
At its core, is it your opinion that prostitution empowers all women?

I don't think prostitution "empowers" women.

I do think earning £120 - £150 per hour for being pretty average at your work, with hours to suit, is empowering. Because capitalism.

So while you, OP, are viewing prostitution through your ideological lens, your DM is looking more at the practicalities.

And btw, in any discussion about prostitution in the UK, participants should be aware that it doesn't require legalisation as it's already legal.

OP you seem to be blaming porn/prostitution/anything you can think of to blame for some of the horrible sexist behaviour from men

The only thing to blame for the horrible sexist behaviour/attitudes from men is...... the men who think/act that way!

Not all men are sexist. Not all male punters are sexist either. Some are some aren’t. Just like some policemen are sexist as well as some office workers and retail workers

My point is, whether you had 1 prostitute or 10 prostitues in a town - you’re still gunna find arsehole men with sexist attitudes. The amount of prostitutes doesn’t change that!

Mumsnet will have you believe that any female sex worker couldn’t possibly be happy doing their job when that’s wrong.
A lot of people on here go into work hating every hour of it. Why’s that any different? Women can actually do sex work and genuinely like it, you know?

Can I ask OP - have you ever shopped in primark or any other cheap highstreet store? I only ask because if you have such a problem with prostitution then it’s very hypocritical to buy cheap clothes when those making the clothes are usually kids forced into it working for 50p a day.

Women/sex workers ARE NOT responsible for the attitudes of some horrible men.
I know a male friend who openly admits he uses prostitues. He’s very wealthy and absolutely lovely as well as attractive. He just sees visiting a prostitue as a safer way of casual sex. There’s very little chance of someone becoming needy/stalkerish. Consent is always made clear. He can walk away satisfied knowing it was just sex.

This is an interesting thread, but I get the feeling Op doesn't like prostitutes because she's worried about her husband visiting one because his mates in the forces quite obviously do. If a man wants to cheat he'll cheat. Simple as that!

I am not keen on prostitution either, but why is this coming up in conversation so frequently?

Just change the subject if it comes up and agree to differ.

based on her idea that selling their body may be a last resort for some women and it's good that they should be able to make some money out of it rather than be helpless and starve

Well.- there are women who've turned to prostitution in desperation aren't there? I don't judge them, and I see your DMs point. I don't like the idea that prostitution exists -. But it always has and always will. All I want is for women in the sex trade to be safe, and informed.

Why does your DM have to think as you do anyway?

Jeez. How many times do I have to say DM doesn't have to think the same, prostitutes aren't responsible for men's infidelity etc etc. That's not the point. As I've stated a number of times, and only one person has actually answered (instead of having a go at my opinions), the opinion that I have issue with is that prostitution empowers women. As a whole group. Not just those forced into it. All women. It's irrelevant whether you think I'm worried about dh visiting one, I used the examples of his work/colleagues normalizing it because that's what I know about. But I didn't start the thread asking about that. So if you're commenting, please comment on that issue, which have to keep repeating - does prostitution empower all women?
And making clothes is not the same as being prostituted.

From what you’ve said it doesn’t read to me that says saying she’s “in favour” of it, it sounds like she’s saying some women are in such dire straights that they turn to it as a way to make money and they shouldn’t be judged for that. She’s right. The rest of your post reads to me like you would judge those women as in some way selling the rest of us out and I think you’re wrong to do that.

Your DM is wrong about reducing rapes though. There’s no evidence of that at all. Rape isn’t about accessing sex, it’s about exerting control and so the fact the men can buy sex like a commodity doesn’t mean they won’t rape. All of those “incels” who demand women’s attention and complain they aren’t able to have sex and that’s why they’re driven to murder (🙄) also refuse to pay for it because they think they’re entitled to women, so why should they pay for them? It’s all messed up but the short point is that rape isn’t prevented by the availability of sex elsewhere.

I really don’t have the energy to go through the mysogyny argument right now. We’re just working like the rest of you, it doesn’t have to be somehow magical and intrinsically empowering blah blah blah

But to do with infidelity. If your husband comes to me wanting a fuck, I’m gonna fuck him most happily. I really don’t take it upon myself to be his moral compass. If prostitution didn’t exist, he’d just go cheat with his secretary or something (should we ban those promiscuous harlots too?) and the situation is no different. I provide a service, I’m not there to police who takes me up on it.

There’s literally no other industry that such “ethics” are instilled upon and it’s ridiculous that sex work faces so much stigma not just from the conservatives and religious folk but also the new “woke” huns.

So if you're commenting, please comment on that issue, which have to keep repeating - does prostitution empower all women?

You’re trying to tell your mum what to think and us what to post?

No I don’t think prostitution empowers all women. I also don’t think it reduces rapes. A lot of what your mum thinks I don’t agree with but a lot of what you think I don’t either.

It’s hard to address the business about empowering all women because you haven’t explained (most likely your mum hasn’t articulated this) what that view is based on. It’s not one of the usual arguments for/against prostitution and there isn’t a clear logical basis for it, so we can’t really give you a response to it.

I think my problem with prostitition is that it 'others' women. If we're all cool with it then men know that however equal we appear or pretend to be, the balance of power is always skewed in their favour. Because women are commodities and they can rate us by our looks and know that because they're men they are above us and if they pester us enough or bribe us we'll eventually do what they want.

If, say, prostitition were a socially acceptable option and a great moneymaker, would it be cool for mums to encourage teenage girls who might be wanting a Saturday job to take it up? Then might they flood the market and the (older, less desirable) would be back in the desperate circumstances anyway?

On a separate point, I think that I was acting as a prostitute in my marriage as my ex husband made it clear that because he earned more money than me, I owed him a level of respect and favours, which I provided. That was his fundamental attitude and I didn't come to realise how little he valued my career until for many years, until he pointed out to me that my job was to make him happy and that my work shouldn't get in the way of that.

Well you've narrowed the debate down to a single narrow statement does prostitution empower all women which renders posting rather pointless imo.