My DM is in favour of prostitution. I'm disgusted. What to say?

[Tinytoebeans]

This is a long standing opinion of hers, based on her idea that selling their body may be a last resort for some women and it's good that they should be able to make some money out of it rather than be helpless and starve. I think. Although I'm pretty sure this is a v naive view which doesn't take in the vast majority of situations. But if I'd point those out, she'd just say they were obviously not acceptable (coerced, for eg) but her main reasoning stands. And it prevents more rapes, apparently.

I hate prostitution with a passion. You enjoy sex, fine. Get on tinder. But even if you're one of the 'happy' prostitutes, you are still normalizing and enabling the practice of men thinking they can buy the use of a women's body to treat it (her) how they please. With all the disrespect for the gender which goes along with it. It also enables easy infidelity. (Yes, I have a partner in the forces, renowned for prostitute use, and its not a pleasant thought. ) Most things I have heard from men is that even if they wouldn't personally visit (really?) they don't see much wrong in anyone else using them.

As to preventing rapes? Well, I'm not sure the type of person to do that would get the same kind of thrill going to a prostitute, to put it bluntly.

Its not as if men are unable to keep it in their pants if horny. Why don't we expect similar behaviour from men and women? Ppl wouldn't generally expect a woman to go out to visit a prostitute if they were horny or not happy with/didn't have a partner around. The way this panders to men's base instincts and behaviour is pathetic.

I know I'm not the most eloquent of ppl and I don't want to have a big discussion with DM about it as I get soo angry with her view which ignores the vast majority of reality involved in the industry. Anyone have any good ideas as to what might educate her on the reality (I know she's on MN as well, hopefully she'll see this, if not I'll have some facts for next time) so she can see how her view isn't actually empowering for women, it's supporting part of a larger system of abuse. I despair that she seems to think it's 'cool' and empowering for women despite the larger issues she doesn't consider.

Tinytoebeans, please find out what programme your mother watched, it might be the same as I've seen which I mentioned in my last post.
Thanks.

There was a AMA thread here a while back talking about her experiences as a prostitute. Poor girls life was ruined not to mention her mental health.
It’s a horrific lifestyle. Whoever is in the game is deluded to defend it.

I don't even know why I'm trying to answer now. I must have restated the original issue a number of times, yet am still getting lambasted about my personal opinion. If so many are going on about why I shouldn't interfere with dm's opinion, why is it OK to have a go and question me about things I've categorically stated I haven't said?!

You've been advised numerous times to just state "Well we'll have to disagree on this point, highly sexed grandparent!"

What';s the further issue?

I'd encourage you to explore this because it speaks volumes about mens vs womens entitlement to what they think of as "vanilla" sex.

there are male prostitutes too you know. For fucks sake, I weep for the staggering ignorance surrounding prostitution and the exploitation of women as a sex class. But don’t let that stop your wokeness. Fuck.

There was a AMA thread here a while back talking about her experiences as a prostitute. Poor girls life was ruined not to mention her mental health.
It’s a horrific lifestyle. Whoever is in the game is deluded to defend it

That was from just ONE sex worker. I know a lot of retail workers that despise their job, doesn’t mean they all suffer the same way.

OP you never acknowledged my comment about being against prostitution for moral reasons yet buying cheap high street clothes made by children forced into working for 50p a day.

Your mum is entitled to her own opinion. If a woman wants to sell sex for money then who are you to judge her for that?

That was from just ONE sex worker. I know a lot of retail workers that despise their job, doesn’t mean they all suffer the same way.

Really? You’re comparing retail to sex work?
You’re actually saying working in retail can actually cause the same sort of mental health issues ?
Ratail worker - oh I hate being on the tills.
Sex worker - oh I hate having to give oral to dirty sleazy men all day long.
Ffs. Stop defending this shit. I have met sex workers in their environment. Years ago. I went with my cousin who used to sell Ann summers stuff to working girls .all lovely girls. But they were sitting in the kitchen and being used like inanimate objects.
Stop watching pretty woman.

There is a sad trend to believe you have to share all views with loved ones. You don’t. You either discuss it in a civilised way, actually listening to one another or agree to disagree.

The way to a completely blinkered view is to only associate with people who share, echo and reinforce your views.

You see this so much on certain boards here and it is a microcosm of how society is going.

You've been advised numerous times to just state "Well we'll have to disagree on this point, highly sexed grandparent!"

And? The hypocrisy of a number of ppl telling me I can't tell other ppl what to say or think (which I wasn't), then being told I have been 'advised' numerous times about what to say myself .

And again - I was asking for info to relate to DM to illustrate why prostitution isn't empowering for all women as a gender. Most of you are missing the point in your rush to tell me what I should or shouldn't be thinking or doing. Or accusing me of thinking/saying things I haven't. Seems the temptation analogy went over your head dione.

Not sure where you're going with your men vs women vanilla sex entitlement ford. It's probably interesting and illuminating, but is another tangent from my original issue.
larry I think you're making a subtle comment on me wanting to persuade DM to the same opinion as myself (apologies if not). As stated a number of times, that is not correct. I would like punchy and concise info to back up my opinion (prostitution does not empower all women), if others have examples. She may modify her opinion, she may not. But an opinion is best formed by being knowledgeable about the issue, isn't it? And that's where the discussion comes in.

Imoldandlost, DelilahandDaisy thanks for a few voices of reason!

If a woman wants to sell sex for money then who are you to judge her for that? How about addressing the original issue instead of going off on a tangent?

What OP? You couldn't find a single bit of evidence to demolish refute the assertion that porn empowers all women? On the whole Internet? Not one bit?
Nonsense.

I think I agree with Prawn, you probably should have asked this in FWR. I have a feeling you would have received more of the responses you wanted.

Oh, give it a rest dione. I didn't say porn, I said prostitution. And of course I've seen things on the internet, I was asking for things other ppl thought effective for the situation ie memorable info they may have used in discussions. Sound bites I could have to hand, if you will, rather than having to go trawl through stuff and 'prepare' my discussion points like a debate . As I have said previously, and another point you choose to ignore in favour of being sarcastic.

Maybe I would have had more posters actually addressing the stated issue on another forum, but I automatically came to relationships because it concerned something between my DM and myself. So sue me.

Apologies OP, I meant to write prostitution, not porn. But my point still stands.

Actually dione, no it doesn't. Because I've said of course I found stuff on the internet. So how does your sarcastic point stand, exactly?

The most puzzling thing for me is why you think your DM cant have a differing opinion. Whether you think your right or not doesn't mean that others have to follow your view ( or you follow theirs). I understand your passion , but why don't you agree to disagree and relax.

I am not anti prostitution but I am totally anti it within my own relationship and that includes webcam stuff, selling pictures, etc. I suspect that’s how many women feel , they aren’t hugely anti it moralistically but don’t want it one bit featuring in their own relationships .

It's up to married or partnered men to control their own sexual urges. No-one is FORCING them to hire prostitutes. Saying that "well they wouldn't cheat if women were prevented from selling sex" is just trying to move the blame from the men to the women.

If someone decides to look up, hire, meet, pay for and have sex, its not anyone elses fault that happened.

In my opinion there are prostitutes and prostitutes...you have the lower end of the market ,,driven by desperation be it drugs etc then you have the high end of the market.The lower end is often used and abused because of their social situation..driven by need.Then the high end..beautiful,talented ladies who see it as a very viable career choice.Their choice by the way,they take the upmost care of themselves and make an excellent living.Do I blame them? no not in the least.The lower end of the market are often victims of circumstance...The high end provide a service,a safe exclusive enviroment where like minded consenting adults participate freely of their own free will.The lower end often have no choice and will do anything for as little as £5.00 here.I have no objection to prostitution in the slightest if chosen freely.Sex will always sell...Traffickers and the like create victims..this is a different matter totally..this is control and abuse not prostitution.

I know how you feel OP, my mum told me she thought Ched Evans and the poor woman he “had sex with” were both as bad as each other. I was astounded, totally changed how I look at her.

The thing that disempowers all women is poverty. And lack of opportunity and lack of choice. And lack of control over their lives.

This argument between OP and her DM is just semantic tosh. Semantics and pseudo leftie bollocks.

Will it change the world if you say the definitive thing to your mum that proves you are right? Does having this argument enhance your relationship in any way? Will winning this argument put and end to prostitution?

This will only ever be a pissing contest. No one wins and you both get wet feet. Just talk about the fucking weather. Or kittens. Though maybe not with a rant about the demise of songbirds....

Your mum probably thinks she's 'woke' as she thinks it's empowering women which I can see how the current feminist media narrative about sex workers could make her think that way. In reality, very few prostitutes make anyway near decent money, most are forced into it because of poverty and areas of prostitution and even surroundimg neighbourhoods come with increased male on female domestic violence and catcalling rates. Sexual assault in surrounding neighbourhoods is often increased. Prostitutes are rarely empowered, often turn to drugs and drink to survive (there was some study in the US that 80% of lapdancers rarely used drugs or drink before they began working at lapdancing clubs however turned to it after it became apparent the only way to make money in those clubs is to offer prostitution services) or numb themselves from it all. They are often from minority ethnicities, histories of mental illness and foster care backgrounds and huge numbers of them are victims of child abuse (usually sexual). The majority of them end up with PTSD If they didn't already have it to begin with. There's a chapter on it in the Equality Illusion, you could get her that book for Christmas to try convince her otherwise.

The Equality Illusion by Kat Banyard. Is that the one where she quotes the evangelical bigot Jim Wells and repeats his false statistic that 127 prostitutes were murdered in the Netherlands since legalization there?

as long as women are safe ie in certain states it's legalised and has rules, Amsterdam.

I've seen articles on the reality of the Amsterdam sex industry, and it wasn't good.

The sex industry is infiltrated by/all mixed up with coercion,exploitation, trafficking, criminality and drugs everywhere.

There are some independent "happy hookers" but they're not representative.

Then the high end..beautiful,talented ladies who see it as a very viable career choice.Their choice by the way,they take the upmost care of themselves and make an excellent living.

But at some point they usually have to be alone with the client, and they take a massive risk.

And sometimes they suffer for that risk .. (and feel they can't report anything that happens).

Even at the more expensive end, women risk and suffer abuse (at best). What's the client scared of - she won't see him again, do what. She'll put a report on a website to other prostitutes; chances are many women by see it or won't be able to identify him.

I'd put serious money on even high end prostitutes having threatening, coercive, frightening, degrading and and abusive things happen to them. Especially with current porn trends.

*so what.

beautiful and talented

Makes it sound like "low end" prostitutes aren't ..

Beautiful - well they probably were before they were "recruited" but maybe they aren't after they've done too much heroin or had a beating or two.

And talented at what?

Is cock sucking supposed to be something we see as a talent?
That explains female reality TV contestants deep throating bananas and ice pops to try to get votes; we should definitely be encouraging that culture for our young women.