How do we come back from this argument?

[Sunrise888]

DH and I have had bad colds all weekend so neither of us are feeling great. DH was getting a headache so I told him to go to bed and I would settle down DS who is 1yo.

Before he did, I started to talk about a photographer who is visiting our baby class and whether we should bother getting photos. DH initially said he trusted me to use my own judgement, but when I persisted for his opinion, he snapped that photographers were overpriced and insulted the expensive wedding photographer we used and the pictures we got out of it. (The photographer had been my choice and I had talked DH into it, paying the excess of what we'd planned to pay out of my own pocket. We've said since that we should have got someone else, but the photos are mostly fine/lovely.) I felt really hurt that he was throwing this in my face and retorted that we'd paid far more for all the friends he'd invited and I was pressured to invite when I'd only wanted a very small family wedding. (Again we've talked about this before. DH had a great day, but when I told him much later I hadn't enjoyed it as much because of all the people, he felt terrible that he had pressured me into a wedding I didn't enjoy.)

Anyway, he saw how upset I was so he took DS off me and said he'd put him to bed, so I went to bed on my own. Later he needed help setting DS which I did. He apologised and asked we don't argue in front of DS, but I was still too upset to say anything.

We've not been getting on so well - the stress of the wedding and having a baby have not brought out the best in us. DH was really, really great in the face of it all, looked after me and excused a lot because I'd had a baby. But in the last few months his patience had worn thin a bit, and he's started to snipe back, which he recognised and is trying to contain. Since we've had the baby, I've been less kind to him. He half jokes about me being mean to him and I do apologise, but recently he's started to snipe back. I feel like because I've been so difficult this last year, I've turned my lovely DH into someone a little less lovely. 😪

I do feel bad about last night in that he was probably just feeling ill and I was talking to him when he just wanted to go to bed. And this is the first time I have said anything to purposefully hurt DH - I didn't just blurt it out, I thought about what I was going to say, and said it knowing it would hurt him. I hate myself but I'm still angry.

I need talking down. We are supposed to make some big decisions with houses and moving today and I am feeling petty wanting to postpone the decisions because I'm so mad. I think sometimes we should get counseling, but I also think I haven't slept a full night in a year and this is just how things are with a baby,, and it will get better.

I'd love some advice please. I hate apologising without talking things through - I don't feel very genuine about my apology otherwise. But I don't think the wedding photographer/wedding pressure talk is one I want to have again as we can't change the past.

@Loopytiles DH would be happy to offer a bottle overnight if he would take it, but DS prefers breastfeeding overnight and bottles during the day. We cosleep which makes it easier, but it's not terribly comfortable either. Anyway, as things are improving sleepwise I'll see how we get on in the next few weeks and maybe try some very gentle sleep training before I go back to work.

@Ohyesiam

You are right, apologise. Just because that might be what it takes to get you too feeling positive about each other again.

That's interesting advice - I find it hard to say sorry if I'm mad and don't mean it (even if I know deep down I'm wrong) but maybe this mindset will get me there quicker. The least I can say is "I'm sorry I hurt you".

No point in apologising if you don’t mean it.
If you’re still angry, you’re still angry.
If you’re getting angry a lot and taking a long time to calm down, you need to prioritise some self care. Different things work for different people, but for me it’s sleep (with a baby who doesn’t sleep great that includes lots of early nights and naps when you can), yoga - but it might be other exercise or mindfulness or whatever, and techniques/strategies for calming down when you get angry.

I think a lot of people have given you a bashing on this thread and it’s unfair. You’ve been bravely honest about your worst behaviours under pressure. I’m sure you have good points and treat your DH well overall. I’m sure he’s not perfect and contributes to the arguments. (I could give a few examples where I think his reaction was as bad as yours but I’m not going to because it’s not about arguing the details.) the point is that demonising and punishing yourself is not helpful. You just need to identify your unhealthy behaviours and do your best to change them. But you’re human not perfect.

Oh and about the sleep training. In my experience and based on what I’ve heard from others, the longer you leave it the harder it gets. And some babies respond to gentle methods but some don’t. We tried gentle methods for a long time (too long) and in the end we had to get stricter and tolerate some crying. It worked quickly and IMO there was less crying overall, plus everyone has been getting more sleep since then and we are all happier.

Just putting it out there because I’ve been there with sleep deprivation and marital disharmony. I read Sarah Ockwell Smith and frankly concluded that she can shove her book up her unqualified a* (I know plenty will disagree though because she seems to have a lot of fans!)

@AnotherEmma thanks so much for your post, I really appreciate the sympathy. I knew I would be given a tough time on this site but as I'm only describing the worst bits I do understand that posters will respond to that, and that can be refreshing too. Through the criticism I found a lot that is helpful. I know that I'm not entirely to blame, that I have good qualities too and there is a lot of good between DH and me. I won't dwell on the past, I will focus on how I can be happier person so I can make DH happy too and I'll reaffirm that we are a team.

The strategies you suggested are good ones. I've really lapsed with exercise and yoga since the baby but I should try to use it to help manage my tiredness, rather than using tiredness as a reason not to do it. I should certainly be having earlier nights but we had a period when I was going to bed at 7/8pm because we cosleep, and i was not spending any time with DH all all during the week.

Appreciate your opinion on gentle sleep training - I will give it a go but will keep in mind what you say about leaving it too long. So far we seem to be headed in the right direction so I'll keep going a little longer.

On the plus side I don't think these issues are impacting on DS at the moment - he is the smiliest, happiest looking baby I know. He is quite hyperactive though, and he always seems to be 'on' - I have no idea if that is just his personality, or whether he might calm down a bit with more sleep.

@Loopytiles

Does your DH similarly struggle to “cut the cord”? Many fathers don’t!

He's a very devoted, adoring dad, but no, he was happy to get back to work and has fewer qualms about nursery than I do. He is doing all the drop offs and I'm doing the pick ups though (because of our work schedules) so I suspect he'll have a tougher time than me!

What does WoH stand for?

I have to hand it to you how well you've taken these replies. My dh and i had counselling after our twins were born which helped us learn to communicate and to help me in particular to learn not to sweat the small stuff. Your relationship sounds similar to mine. Counselling isn't only for relationships that are in trouble. It can be really helpful just to learn how to tweak things so you work better together.

Teasing each other is fine as long as you're not doing it maliciously - and as long as your partner can tell if you're just joking because your motivation for making a certain comment isn't the only thing to consider - it's how will it be received and too many tiny incidents will be the death of a thousand cuts to your relationship. I think you've shocked yourself because this time you realised you were trying to hurt him. You have got used to talking to your partner in a certain way and you've been telling yourself you're joking so its fine - but if its not balanced with any acts or words of affection it will eventually hurt you both - as you're realising.

Taking time to think about what you want to say is fine but i think you need to agree with him in advance while calm that you have a certain word or phrase you will use to signal that this is what you're doing - don't just storm off and sulk. But what would be even better is if you could assess in the heat of the moment whether the argument you're having or the comment you're about to say is actually worth it or not, or if you're trying to score points. Think about your motivation before you do something.

@ReadytoTalk thank you so much for sharing your experience. I liked the idea of pre-marital counselling, though we never got around to looking into it. I'm not sure that DH would go for the idea of opening himself up to a professionals though, especially if we had to pay for it (what is the going rate?). I think he feels we have enough good times together that he feels we are fine and can get through any difficulties we have on our own.

We had a lovely evening together, I felt positive. I think some of the jokes and teasing is fine, we do it to each other when we are feeling sweet and in a good mood. I just need to be more observant and pick my moments more carefully in the future and just watch it doesn't become unkind. I think the weekend really made it clear to me that when we are well then it can be wonderful, but sleep deprivation and illness bring out the worst in me and that I have to address is seriously. I'm not crazy about the prospect of DS catching one bug after another when he starts nursery and the three of us being ill together on a regular basis.

But what would be even better is if you could assess in the heat of the moment whether the argument you're having or the comment you're about to say is actually worth it or not, or if you're trying to score points. Think about your motivation before you do something.

Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. I need to remind myself of the potential long term consequences, and winning an argument isn't worth hurting his feelings.

I think you sound like a very nice and self-aware poster sunrise. You have been very gracious on this thread. It sounds like you are very committed to improving communication.

Re the sleep-training, what I found worked for me was you pick a weekend, you both commit to it, and you start with a plan for Thursday-Sunday, divvy up the responsibilities in advance and schedule rest/sleep time for the 'off-duty' parent.

@TwentySmackeroos thank you! Even though some of the criticism is quite tough, I do appreciate that people have taken time to give advice so I've tried to listen and respond to almost every one, even if I don't agree with it. Everyone seems to have my DH's best interests at heart, so how can I argue really 😉

That sounds like a good strategy for sleep training. I will definitely keep it in mind if we need to use it.

I think the responses you've had are for the most part ridiculous. You haven't had a single full night's sleep or a day to yourself in a year while your DH sleeps every night and goes out 2-3 times a week. And you're beating yourself up, and being beaten up, for being a tiny bit mean when on top of all that you're also ill. I was in your shoes ones and I threw the buggy and called my DH a fucking cunt. I'm not an abusive person - I was so incredibly tired and worn out that I was hallucinating, I thought I was going mad. I agree that it's not right to blame circumstances for ongoing shitty behaviour but everyone has a limit and tbh if after a year of no sleep your limit is a bit of meanness I'd say you have nothing to worry about.

Ok, I've sort of jumped to the end, because I wanted to say you don't sound horrible to me. You are telling us what you see as your own faults in this story, if you were horrible you would be telling us about what you see as your DH's faults.

One thing that I did when I was young was when I felt miserable I would cast around for a reason and pick a fight, because I just assumed that there must be a reason for it. It sounds like that is what is happening in your case. You are overtired and that is generally affecting how you feel, but instead of just accepting that you decide that you are still upset about something that happened two years ago. I was like that. Nowadays I know that I can be sad or irritable for no reason. If I'm irritable for too long I take Vitamin B complex.

DS preferring bfeeding to bottles at night could probably be changed in the course of a few nights - he already has them in the day - and his preferences shouldn’t outweigh your health and wellbeing, which is vitally important. He would still be a contented baby.

His sleep may improve naturally, but may well not, unfortunately.

both mine had sleep issues until age 3. I would not have been at all well had I done all the night parenting. In retrospect I wish we had tried slightly harder techniques on sleep, because of the effects of prolongied sleep deprivation on me, and later DH. Our health, relationship and in my case career.

@Spaghettijumper @Coyoacan

Thank you both so much. I agree, I've got a bit more perspective after a day and things don't feel so bad and I don't feel like such a terrible person now. I think I did need/want a stern talking to about putting a bit more effort in and not letting the responsibility for my relationship fall to my DH just because I'm tired and busy with the baby. (I've given myself a talking to many times and it obviously hasn't stuck!)

I'll look into Vitamin B complex!

I didn't mention I have terrible hay fever too, on top of the cold. I think the cold is going now but the itchy eyes and streaming nose are here to stay. 😥

@Loopytiles I think I will try to keep him on his side cot more rather than in bed with me. He only needed one comfort feed last night, but I woke up many more times because he kept rolling around and I kept expecting him to latch on. I think that will help. I don't want to switch to bottles over night because getting formula is such a faff and I feel like we are so close to the end now I may as well persist for a bit longer. I remember trying bottles overnight when he was younger (DH was keen to give me a break), but it didn't work and DS is even more picky now and refuses them in favour of breastfeeding.

I think a decent partner will understand that you're knackered and expending all your energy looking after the baby that you both love, so that you may not be able to look after him or the relationship as well as you did before, but that's absolutely fine because he's not a baby and he can cope, just like you're coping. While it's not good to let a relationship become bitter or combative, it's also not good to feel under pressure to make another adult happy when you're on your last legs yourself. I notice that you were sending your DH to bed originally because had a headache - IMO the parent who gets to sleep all night doesn't really get to be a baby about having an illness (especially when the other parent, the one who gets no sleep, is also ill). They should just soldier on and thank their fucking lucky stars that unlike the other parent they'll get 7 or 8 hours uninterrupted sleep.

My key piece of advice is not to get sucked in to this idea that as the mum you must prioritise everybody else over yourself. Women are too often taught that their needs come second and it's bollocks. If you're both ill, then your DH needs to do just as much, if not more than you, because you don't get any sleep to recuperate. He doesn't get to claim that he needs to recover, when you don't even get to sleep.

@Spaghettijumper

I notice that you were sending your DH to bed originally because had a headache - IMO the parent who gets to sleep all night doesn't really get to be a baby about having an illness (especially when the other parent, the one who gets no sleep, is also ill). They should just soldier on and thank their fucking lucky stars that unlike the other parent they'll get 7 or 8 hours uninterrupted sleep.

Ha, yes you're right there. To be fair DH normally does a lot extra because DS is such a handful during the day and my sleep is so broken at night. So he'll find a way to give me lie-ins during the week even though he has work (doing DS breakfast, and, if he has time, tidying the flat, washing bottles, vacuuming, laundry, so I have a clean start to the day), he takes care of all the shopping so we are stocked up, and for the first six months he did almost all the cooking, and he loves looking after DS and will take him off my hands in the evening of he's not too tired. So I feel very fortunate (looking at that list I feel like I don't do anything, but honestly I do!). OTOH he is constantly stressed with work, works long hours, plays a lot of football to combat the stress, so he's not back until very late and has to work weekends sometimes. He comes down with man-flu often, and because he does a lot for me, I reciprocate when he is tired, stressed or ill and do pretty much everything (DH will hold the baby). I can cope with that. I guess on balance we share most tasks depending on who is feeling best. But when we are both down with illness it's bloody awful. I can cope with illness better than him so I feel obligated to get on with things, but it's hard not to feel peeved because I want to be looked after but I have 2 babies to attend to!

I can cope with illness better

Bullshit alert!

You had a baby a year ago and haven't slept a single full night since then. Please don't start believing this nonsense. If someone has to cope with a cold, they will. And if they have a baby, it's tough luck, they don't really get to be feeble about it.

You talk about your DH 'giving' you lie -ins and doing housework as though it's a great favour. You're up 3-4 times a night every night with the baby you both brought into the world - does he see this as a great favour to him? Or something you just have to do because you're a mum?

You are both responsible for your lovely little boy. He is not 'helping' when he does his bit. TBH I think going to play football multiple times a week when there's a baby in the house is taking the piss but that's a personal view.

My key piece of advice is not to get sucked in to this idea that as the mum you must prioritise everybody else over yourself. Women are too often taught that their needs come second and it's bollocks. If you're both ill, then your DH needs to do just as much, if not more than you, because you don't get any sleep to recuperate. He doesn't get to claim that he needs to recover, when you don't even get to sleep.

I know, I know, I agree, but the reality is that I can be ill and get on with things, DH is ill and he is flat on his back needing medicine and cups of tea and lemsip. I love him and want to look after him because he's fantastic to me. This weekend we were both feeling so terrible we could barely look after the baby much less each other.

You are doing all the night parenting. The stuff you list that DH is doing is a fair share of the day stuff, and no more.

No, you don’t have 2 babies, he is an adult and should attend to himself. I had this with DH, who as with the morning thing needed to and did change his behaviour.

Suggest reading up on and practicing self care.

Working long hours is DH’s choice and has payoffs. Do you have as much leisure time?

You’re returning to work in a field that isn’t known to be good for women. How you and DH split parenting and domestic responsibilities will have a huge impact on your paid work and wellbeing - good time to take stock and make a fair “deal” about the next phase.

Seriously, you’re doing no one - including DS as he grows up and learns from you both as role models - by tolerating “special snowflake” behaviour from DH when he’s ill.

@Spaghettijumper

DH did pretty much everything in the first 6 months, I did enough to keep us ticking over until he got home from work. I picked up more in the following months but DH admitted that he was struggling to keep up with all the household stuff and cooking as well as spending time with DS. He didn't feel like he was doing me a favour, he felt obligated because he wanted to make sure we are looked after and have everything we need. His job is demanding and irregular, and he has sacrificed it in favour of us even though it's an important year for him. Yes it can be annoying that he has football 2-3 evenings a week but he asked me if I was ok with it first, and I can see that he can cope better and is happier when he is exercising regularly. If he's looking after himself he can look after the two of us too, and if anything I should be trying to follow his example. And he does suggest we exercise together and that I have evenings to do what I want, so I'm trying to get there.

So I have to respectfully disagree, on balance DH is more than pulling his weight, and he does what he can to help me when I'm especially tired.

I know, I know, I agree, but the reality is that I can be ill and get on with things, DH is ill and he is flat on his back needing medicine and cups of tea and lemsip. I love him and want to look after him because he's fantastic to me. This weekend we were both feeling so terrible we could barely look after the baby much less each other.

If this sort of ridiculous behaviour continues you will end up hating your DH. It really is no wonder that you were a bit mean to him, in fact I think you did well not to swear and tell him to grow up.

He does not need to be flat on his back needing medicine and lemsip. He is a grown up and a parent and he doesn't get to flake out when he's feeling ill any more than you do. Do not accept this utter bullshit.