How do you feel about lap dance club/pole dancing stuff.........?

[niceglasses]

My dh works in a bit of a boyish industry - mobile phones - tends to be bit 'scummy'.

I'd say ohhhh 5 or 6 times now on a night out they have ended up at these lap dance/topless places. At least he doens't lie about it! He says they just want the extra drink. He doesn't get home till about 4/5 in the morning.

I have gently let it be known I don't like it - he says its harmless.

What do you wise lot think? I don't feel like I can 'ban' him but I do feel a bit put out.

i'm fancying some for the weekend- DS is staying at FIL's. Also coaxing DP into getting a new 'toy' as i broke mine

according to some people's opinions here, i exploit and degrade my own gender, and am badly socialised because - shock horror- i've been known to buy / use / suggest porn

roll on the weekend.

You forgotten to include that your education was also a complete waste, PG, in your enumeration of all your morally unacceptable practices.

Hell, I love my husband, but you know, sometimes I just want him to give me a right seeing to.

you make me chuckle expat

yes, despite my good education, i have posed nude and danced topless...but i didn't charge for it. Was i being exploited if no money changed hands?

IN answer to the OP:
for maybe a stag do - but i think as a regular thing i would have to kick arse

ipanemagirl, good points eloquently put. Thanks for food for thought!
I will add more over the Bank Hols weekend if the thread is still active by then.

PG, expat, see how you have distracted me with your smutty posts?
Will have to read the London Review of Books now to calm myself down.

As my best friend once said, 'There's a lil' ho in all of us.'

And a rake in every man.

Ipgirl: I'm not saying that anyone who objects to the sex industry is sexless, more that people who spend a lot of time fretting about how to stop other people having certain types of sex are not comfortable with their own sexual tastes and preferences.
And you do seem to be accepting of a lot of myths about the porn industry: that all men want younger and younger girls, for instance. Or that "porn" is some monolithic entity which projects only one message which can only be interpreted in one possible way by any viewer, no matter what that viewer's orientation, background or age. Porn, by which I mean sexually-explicit material (or performance, though technically non-recorded performance is performance not media material) offers a variety of different messages: sex is fun, all bodies are beautiful - porn, far more than mainstream media, portrays a range of ages, body types and ethnicities as sexually desirable...sex is dirty/forbidden, some men like to have their anus penetrated, sex in a swimming pool is enjoyable, you can have sex anywhere you like....
Now some of these messages are truer than others, but the same could be said of any entertainment media. Remember, in mainstream media, if a woman is depicted as liking sex outside of the context of a "loving relationship" she usually gets punished in some way, by being assaulted or by being shown to end up "lonely"...

And all the criticisms of the sex industry with regard to mistreatment of workers and their exploitation applies just as much if not MORE to other industries, including the catering industry. I use catering as a comparative example partly because food and sexuality are the two most important desires driving human beings and I'd like to ask again: should those workers in the catering industry who are doing OK (celeb chefs, restaurant managersetc) be held responsible for improving the conditions of the trafficked immigrants working in their industry in dangerous, unpleasant environments, etc?

oh expat can i use that on the ticker thread...purlees

'There's a lil' ho in all of us.'

havent read any of this since i posted, but that is SUCH a signature

Madamez, I don't think I have ever fretted in my life about the sexuality of consenting adults or workers doing anything they want to, in fact I think a happy sex life is a hugely productive thing all round.

Clearly you and others here are strong and successful in this kind of work and I honestly can't argue with that beyond what I've tried to say.

But I'm amazed that you don't find most porn to be monolithic. Most of what I've seen seems to be very aimed at men and not me. The women all seem to be 50% plastic and little of it seems erotic to me. I know that there are films made by women which may well address me more effectively. But I don't look for erotic experiences outside my relationship - I find and continue to find so much there that it seems odd to look outside to me, but hey! each to his/her own. You seem to think that adventurousness is the final proof of happy sexuality. I suspect it's not that simple.

However there is some convenient compartmentalisation going on on your side of the argument. You are not really acknowledging the dodgier aspects of the sex industries. You've nodded at them but not really grappled with them.

I did not say ALL men seek younger women, BUT there is an increasing problem in this country and abroad where women (some very young) are trafficked for sex. There is a large demand from a shameless group of men who would all (I suspect) be overjoyed to hear some of your arguments.

Healthy sex is great. Abusive sex of minors, drug addicts and trafficked women is not. Unfortunately our society need to address the demand somehow. A lot of people see porn and the objectification of women as related to the demand that is all I'm trying to get you to address! It's nothing to do with healthy/happy/productive sexual activity between consenting adults of any number or sex with however much equipment or stimulation!

Ipgirl, at the risk of sounding hugely condescending, if you don't see the need to look outside your own relationship for erotic stimulation then you probably haven't seen very much porn at all - why would you? And I'm not specifically cirticising your sexual preferences or behaviour - after all, I don't know what you do in bed and it isn't my business. I meant that to be a more general observation: people who object to porn and sex work usually are people who are uncomfortable or dissatisfied with their own sexual feelings and therefore refuse to believe that anyone else might feel differently.
As to not addressing the suffering of people working in the sex industry against their will I have stated that I know this goes on, that I think it's bad and that friends of mine are actively working to help those suffering in this way. Are you addressing the plight of exploited, trafficked and abused people in other aspects of your daily life? Do you think it's ok to eat shellfish, for instance, after the deaths of the Chinese cockle-pickers? Do you try to make sure that the clothes you buy weren't made in a sweatshop? What exasperates me (not with you particularly or specifically) is that when people criticize the exploitation that can and does occur in the sex industry, they seem to think this justifies trying to shut down the sex industry rather than imrpove the conditions of sex workers and porn performers - no one ever seems to advocate shutting down the fashion industry, or the cut flower industry( another area where dreadful exploitation occurs) or the catering industry because many people working there are underpaid, abused, bullied or victimised.

is this still going? wow!

someone fill me in what we are harping about now as i too tired to read the last 150 posts.

madamez, I do not object to porn and sex work per se - I object, like i've said countless times, to the mindset which turns women into objects that these industries can help perpetuate. This is a specific issue to due with the history of the sexes in our culture. I'm trying to get you to address what causes the mindsets which create negative sexual behaviour. I'd love to hear you talk about that - genuinely. I'd love to hear you acknowledge that there are negative sexual mindsets! I promise not to call you frigid if you do!

I do think that the sexual enslavement of trafficked sex workers is more alarming than most of the industrial abuse of workers. It is my understanding from what I've read and seen that it is worse.

I am very concerned about the poor treatment of workers all over the world including child workers who are involved with a huge amount of products shipped into this country.

But despite that concern I believe that there are some separate issues here. I have done voluntary work in the developing world and seen child labour and really devastating poverty in Africa and the far east. However I still think that there are some important separate issues about the sex industries; this is not intended to diminish the moral wrongs committed against all abused people!

Undestructive meeting of sexual needs is fine with me - please stop implying that I think otherwise!

Also ! and this is not to defend any mistreatment of workers in the uk - this country is one of the most sought after destinations of economic migrants. And most western countries abuse their migrant workers. It's very wrong and I do not defend it.

But there are far worse places to be powerless!

You see, Ipgirl, i don't think it's porn and sex work that are the main contributors to a perception of women as objects. For one thing, countries where porn and sex work are highly unacceptable/illegal do not exactly have a glowing record on women's rights - think Afghanistan, Iran etc - and then contrast the position of women in Holland or Sweden, two countries that are a byword for liberal attitudes towards porn and sex work.
It's predominantly religion that has created this concept of women as things, as property... as breeding machines. And, though this is not to say that sex work is by definition Empowering (it's not that if you're coerced into it, after all), freely-chosen sex work or porn performance can be a contribution towards getting rid of the concept of women as either 'good' women who trade sex for love and only engage in sex acts for the benefit of one man, but don't like it that much or worthless whores who will do it for money or with anyone instead of allowing their sexuality to be the property of an individual man.

Madamez, thanks for this but I'm afraid I don't agree with you about the religion thing exactly - Islam is essentially profoundly enlightened about women, it's some of the cultures that Islam has prospered in which have mutated that aspect as far as I understand it. But Iran in the past was wonderfully enlightened about women. I think religious fundamentalists aren't religious at all - it's all about control, political power - a corruption of religion.

Christianity has had massive faults but misogyny has often hidden behind convenient screens (like Loaded - I would argue!). Also the churches have actually supported women in some ways in history. Until about 150 years ago, if you look at the history of religious life in Europe - running a convent would be the only big job in town allowing for an education and running a small world of your own free from any obedience to a husband. My great aunt had poor Irish parents and had an amazing career as a nun, world travel, education, interesting career. Now, in the developing world lots of girls get an education through faith schools which lifts them out of poverty/industrial slavery. So I don't think religion is all bad. It can (despite it's blind spots about sex) educate people to value themselves and respect others. Everyone blames the RC Church for some of the spread of aids in Africa and I'm sure that it's contributed to that but, when you speak to Aid workers they say you can't get men to wear condoms whether they care about religion or not- it's not negotiable for a large percentage. We would both probably agree that things are often not what they seem.

But I have learned a lot from you on this subject so thanks for crossing swords with me!

er..what Ladyoftheflowers said!!

actually,this thread(what i ahve read of it)has made me think about my attitude to this subject.

Ipgirl: yes, an interesting discussion all round.