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Cultural differences UK Playdates Recipricol behaviour Generosity Sikh

374 replies

Rightgirlwrongplanet1 · 03/06/2018 18:00

Please can you either validate by sharing examples of your own, or disprove my conclusions, about the ungenerous, unwelcome cultural attitudes of British, white people.

My background is Punjabi Sikh and I was born and brought up in the UK. I grew up watching my parents receiving and themselves being visitors.

My take on Sikh people is they were from traditional, humble backgrounds with jolly, warm, generous backgrounds. Sikhs in particular are known for their overly generous nature with a visit never missing offers of quantities of food.

(As a child, I remember guests would be offered anything we had in the cupboards. They only had to mention the word and it was on the table in front of them. The guest was king. The gesture was equally reciprocated when visiting a similar background. The unspoken understanding was we didn’t have much, but we shared what little we had. And offering food showed you cared- I digress).

Trips back to the motherland extended that concept to a greater extent with the people sometimes having the least, offering the most. It made me feel warm, welcome and humble.

In my experience of the UK, it is polar opposite. Whenever I have visited people from British background in their home, I have always been offered nothing.

My daughter once went on a playdate for 2 hours and upon collection, before her host, whined she was hungry and thirsty. The guest didn’t respond by offering a glass of water. Instead he invited us for more playdates the next day (presumably for the same treatment? Angry)
She later confirmed she had not been offered anything, not even a glass of water. The hosts were well within their means to offer a modest snack, let alone glass of water.

When I stayed for the first few minutes of the playdate, the host remained laying down on the sun lounger, drinking her own cup of tea Brew! This I could never do for fear of appearing rude.

As a mum, my natural nurturing instinct makes me offer a little girl who visited our house something to eat and drink. We had hosted 2 playdates previously and the mother saw for herself the generous amount of treats laid out, so it is sad this wasn’t reciprocated. I was not expecting equal but at least a (free) glass of water.

I visited someone from British background to pay condolences to someone who had died and I offered food, flowers Flowers and card. I stayed for an hour and not offered even a glass of water by relatives.

I have paid my British neighbours a visit and nothing, not even water. I paid three of my Gujrati neighbours a visit and offered home made food. My Turkish friends offered cake and home made food. At my party, the Arabs arrived flowing with food. I am so grateful and humbled that I reciprocate in good will feelings back to them.

Perhaps I am guilty of actively seeking out examples to reinforce my negative stereotype of white British English people. It is a small sample set but enough for me to make some generalisations.

Perhaps my comparison is unkind as the people who offer nothing have come from working class backgrounds and class plays a part in cultural manners.

I am moved to write this because the irony is that in the world where people are relatively wealthy compared to their third world counterparts, they display what I believe to be ungenerous, unwelcome (mean-spirited) behaviour.

We live in the south east of England - a region of disproportionate wealth in the UK. They have relatively much more in terms of disposable income yet cannot offer even a glass of water.

I know this is a controversial post and I expect it will upset the majority white British people who read this, interpreting racist connotations. It’s not- I’m only writing what I have experienced in real life.

(In gurdwaras, we serve langar which is blessed food for those who seek blessings from god- the giving and taking of food being so central to our lives- I digress).

OP posts:
eurochick · 04/06/2018 09:01

This thread really is quite racist!

I also find it quite difficult to believe the lack of hospitality in so many different scenarios. I live in the south east and it doesn't chime with my experience at all. Guests are always offered at least a drink. Most callers would be offered biscuits as well between mealtimes. If the visit is over a mealtime you would be offered a meal.

There is a childhood obesity crisis though, so I'd be cautious about offering much on a two hr play date. Probably just a drink. Maybe a small snack.

DuchyDuke · 04/06/2018 09:12

@margaretcavendish - what ‘culture’ is this? Certainly not British or European. Every British or European person I know would offer guests food, and many keep biscuits etc just for this purpose.

MargaretCavendish · 04/06/2018 09:19

what ‘culture’ is this? Certainly not British or European. Every British or European person I know would offer guests food, and many keep biscuits etc just for this purpose.

Well, then maybe this is regional because while I would normally buy or make a cake or similar if I was planning to have someone over, I don't keep snacks in specially for unexpected guests and nor does anyone else I know. If someone turned up at my door right now all I could offer them is toast, which most people would think was quite a weird thing to be offered. However, I would always, always offer drinks (both hot and cold) and so would everyone else I know. I would think it a bit odd (though I wouldn't develop the OP's level of resentment about it!) if someone invited me in/over and then didn't offer me a drink, but I would think absolutely nothing of it if that drink wasn't accompanied by any food.

But then, in my own experience (and so, I guess, culture) being an unexpected guest is quite rude unless there's a particular reason. If my neighbour knocked on the door now and said she was locked out I would of course invite her in and give her tea (and offer her that toast). But I would expect even my own parents to call and say 'we're in the area, can we pop round in half hour' rather than just turn up - and in that half hour I'd run out and get some biscuits!

RedLily84 · 04/06/2018 09:21

I posted earlier as I said from a similar South Asian background. I do think that these communities have serious issues with obesity because of this constantly eating epidemic. Rather than making food something to enjoy it’s like you HAVE to eat and eat a lot at different occasions.

My Sikh Punjabi friends do eat a lot and when they are together socially. OP I think it’s just not usual to be always offered food in other cultures it’s not rude. Often my MIL will come round and just have a cup of tea. To my mother that would be me being rude but I know that my MIL has never eaten between meals. She eats three meals a day. She’s careful not to eat processed foods. Is mindful of her weight (not openly) but she’s healthy. She exercises and doesn’t eat to excess. My mum can’t stop eating - constantly buying snacks then asks me why her back or belly are so fat!

SadieHH · 04/06/2018 09:23

Enough of this north/south stuff. I'm SE and the kettle is on before you've closed the front door behind you. Same goes for the London half of my family and the irish side. Amongst my Surrey friends I have never gone hungry or thirsty and neither have my children. It simply doesn't happen.

The only time I ever had a visitor and I didn't offer them anything was a couple of days after my first was born and I just wasn't with it. I have been mortified when I think of that for 10 years!

Rainydaydog · 04/06/2018 09:29

Yes Margaret that is very much how I would do things, and most people I know. We do prefer a call in advance even from relatives.
I do think there's more awareness of not forcing food on someone who may be dieting nowadays. Although everyone still offers drinks. When I was young biscuits would be brought out as standard and HM cake if you had time. Now you would probably offer food but be careful not to press it on the guest and have a healthy alternative if you knew they wanted it . The same with visiting children when I was young and went to friends there would definitely have been sweet treats, whereas now I would check with parents what the children were allowed to have.

user1499173618 · 04/06/2018 09:39

Forcing food down visitors necks is not great hospitality.

Beechview · 04/06/2018 09:40

As another little story, ds went to a birthday party at his south Asian friend’s house (I’m south Asian myself). When I picked him up, he was starving.
He’d been picked up straight after school, I was asked to pick him up at 6.30 and all he’d had was a tiny piece of birthday cake and a drink. That’s all what all the children had been offered.
I was surprised as that's never happened before. No matter what cultural background his hosts have been, he’s always been well fed and watered.

findingmyfeet12 · 04/06/2018 09:41

DuchyDuke plenty of people on this thread have said they don't offer food and others have said they don't keep snacks in the house.

ThatsWotSheSaid · 04/06/2018 09:43

My dd best friend is from a European background and when ever she goes there she gets high as a kite on suger and treats. I hate it and I’d stop inviting her if she turned up here with bags of sweets too. When the little girl comes to us I obviously offer food and drinks and give her dinner, but not the same amount of sugary snacks. Equally when her parents come I don’t offer food because we just don’t have snacks like biscuits in the house. We eat only at meal times. I would usually offer a cuppa though.
When we do have friends round for dinner we often get them to bring desert or crisps etc so you would think we were very rude, but it feels more relaxed and prevents people feeling awkward, we normally host for various reasons. You are not freely giving a gift (so it’s not generous in my eyes) you are giving an obligation.

SluttyButty · 04/06/2018 10:59

Confused the op isn't racist, prejudicial is a slight possibility but not racist. In fact I think it's just a case of cultural differences and in the white British culture you then have further divisions of social differences.

Anyway it's an interesting discussion. I was married to a Gujarati man and as said somewhere on this thread, water, tea and snacks were automatically put out for guests despite said guests saying no (a ritual game I found of pretending to not want to inconvenience the host which then made the host even more determined they were having tea).

I'm white British and grew up in a very middle class household in the south east commuter town and my mother made vast spreads when we had guests round for the day (think Maureen on the old BT ads with the overloaded fridge and her saying there wasn't much in). However I do have very strong Scottish and Lancashire roots. She still worries if anyone has left her house hungry despite the fact everyone is full to bursting Grin

Rightgirlwrongplanet1 · 04/06/2018 12:22

I'm glued to your responses. It has given me an insight into your thinking which I appreciate.

First of all, I'm sorry if I caused offence. I don't mean to be racist. I knew my OP would divide opinion and would not sit well with individuals, particularly from no recent history of immigration in their families.

Second, my eyes metaphorically popped out of skull at comments about obesity and feeling adversely embarrassed /overwhelmed /negative /offended /insulted / awkwardness /ungrateful attitude at offers of food! (My feelings are of overwhelming gratefulness, warmth, love for the host).

I want to clarify few things.

First, like others we also aim for healthy diets.

Second, to suggest a 6 year old would go from 2nd percentile weight to obesity within the stroke of a playdate is absurd.

Third, we are not talking vast amounts of food here. I know little tummies can't cope with it. It is a token reciprocal act of offering SOMETHING, however small that may be, which would have ingratiated me towards some of my hosts, which I have (perhaps mis)perceived as unwelcoming.

Fourthly, if you decline food from me, it's no big deal. I have done my offer and you have exercised your right to decline. No offence taken. I will not "force" food down you. I'm not stupid.

Fifthly, I am seriously trying to understand some of the repulsion towards food offers ! I don't understand. At. AllConfused

So I wonder if this explains things.

India has experienced famines for centuries. Think Ethiopia 1980s but affecting millions upon millions more. (This is largely unknown in the history books but I'm going to put it here en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_Indi) The causes are many, some under the cruelty of British colonial rule (again I will be accused of racism, but it's history). Food was survival of the human species. Of course then,food will have a very high value in society. It meant the difference between life and death of your children, mother, father, family etc. Guru Nanak philosophy was share whatever you have with less fortunate and introduced free food for anyone who visited a gurdwara anywhere in the world 600 years ago.

Now compare UK - the fifth largest economy in the world. A land of over consumption, excess, super power and, to my knowledge, never having had a famine wiping out entire generations. There was shortage after the war, but no one died directly from rations. There was never a link between lack of food and certain death. Little value (and in some of your opinions, revulsion) towards food.

Still today in India, it is considered "healthy" to carry a bit of extra weight as reserves in case of illness.

I am perhaps intellectualising this because no Indian sits there thinking I must offer tea in case my guest dies. But this might explain our opposing cultural views on food, the act of giving food to your guests, who may not be family, but are your kinship, brotherhood, human equivalent.

To those insulted at the giving of food, what is your response to the British custom of handing food parcels at harvest time to local pensioners at school? This gesture touches me year after year at its thoughtfulness and gratefulness for plentiful food.

OP posts:
snop · 04/06/2018 12:30

Another northerner here, the first thing I say to people who visit me is do they want a tea/coffee juice ?. And all of my family are the same. Nobody leaves our house without an offer of tea and biscuits or a sandwich. If the children have there friends round that are always fed too, even a two hour play date I would have still made them something to eat

blacklister · 04/06/2018 12:45

OP I think what you just aren't getting is that it's not right or wrong, just different. My grandparents were Eastern European post war immigrants and they had a different culture to my other (English for as many generations as you can count) grandparents. Neither are wrong but you seem to be judging another culture as incorrect just because it's not the same yours.

As I said I always offer people a hot or cold drink, and generally people are only offered food if they've been invited for a meal. Close family in my house would say if they were hungry when they were here and I'd happily make them a sandwich or something but I don't keep cakes/biscuits/junk in the house to just wheel out for visitors.

In your culture, it seems it is the norm and perfectly acceptable to arrive unannounced, then be waited on hand foot and finger until such time they you decide you want to leave. Fair enough if that's what works for you. I consider that rude, and wouldn't dream of imposing myself on people in that way.

WalkingOnAFlashlightBeam · 04/06/2018 12:48

Re the repulsion towards food offers, there’s a culture clash when a person from one culture is offering food to a guest who doesn’t want to eat, and the guest is from another culture where it’s considered rude or awkward to decline forceful hospitality. I find it very annoying when I visit someone and they try and INSIST I have something to eat. If I’m not hungry I won’t eat, and I find it incredibly rude to continue to try and force food on someone who has declined.

Second, to suggest a 6 year old would go from 2nd percentile weight to obesity within the stroke of a playdate is absurd.

It’s about a pattern though isn’t it? If every play date a child goes on they’re given food they don’t need, and they go on a play date once or twice per week, they could easily gain weight.

I’m currently watching what I eat and on a diet of around 1200 calories per day (the lowest intake that’s considered safe), if I visit a friend’s house and they offer some food I will decline as a few biscuits, a bag of crisps, a sugary drink, could easily take up a huge chunk of my ‘allowance’ for the day and mean I’ll go hungry later, I’d rather eat what I have planned to get the most filling food I can for my calories. But I have friends who’ll offer once and then accept the decline and be fine with it (I wouldn’t stay over a mealtime as I know some people feel awkward eating when one person isn’t eating with them). But if I visited a friend who tried to insist I eat, and didn’t take no for an answer, I’d be making my excuses to leave pretty fast! And I’ve definitely encountered people through my OH’s family (he’s British Sikh) who basically won’t take no for an answer, push and push, I stand my ground and then THEY seem offended I won’t eat, when in my eyes they’re the ones who’ve made it awkward by refusing to respect my ‘no thank you’.

Does that make sense OP?

DameLillyTillicut · 04/06/2018 12:53

Enough of this north/south stuff.
Yes. This. As if the OP's post wasn't generalising and offensive enough, I have to be reminded that I'm the shittest, most unfriendly type of white brit as I'm as southerly as you can get.Hmm

OP, I'm sorry that you find yourself in an unfriendly area and have rubbish neighbours. If you came to my house you'd be offered tea/coffee/cake or cookies on tap. I love an excuse for a buffet. Playdates are catered appropriately and afternoon guests generally get a barbeque or meal cooked (and bottomless G&T or Prosecco if an appropriate occasion Wink)

I love guests and cooking and I don't think I'm unusual. This is my experience of visiting others too. You can't generalise all white british (and northerners cannot generalise all southerners) based on a handful of interactions in a small sanple group.

findingmyfeet12 · 04/06/2018 12:54

If anyone has been insulted or repulsed by offer of food, I must have missed their post.

You've just written a long post about the existence of cultural differences yet seem intent on promoting your culture as right, generous, kind, etc in comparison to another.

They are just different nothing more.

Where do you stand on the fact that far fewer people pay tax in India and corruption is higher than in the UK. I see the fact that Brits pay tax as being a far greater sign of generosity to those less fortunate than stuffing guests (who aren't hungry) with food that they don't need and might not want.

By the way my ethnic origin is also from a poor corrupt country where great value is placed on keeping up appearances before guests.

caoraich · 04/06/2018 12:58

Yes - exactly what blacklister said

Also as someone with Indian heritage I find the presumption that these cultural differences should remain, in the context of cultural memory/heritage about famine etc - in the UK- quite insulting.

The Indian part of my family emigrated to Scotland. Where they absorbed local cultural traditions. There has never been a presumption that we should hark back to the way our ancestors were - we behave like the people around us and get along very well. My grandparents would tell you that they chose to move to the arse end of nowhere and that while their own cultural traditions are to be respected and maintained, they're not better than the way the locals live. Food is part of that.

WalkingOnAFlashlightBeam · 04/06/2018 12:59

You've just written a long post about the existence of cultural differences yet seem intent on promoting your culture as right, generous, kind, etc in comparison to another.

I think that’s what is making people uncomfortable about this thread. The opening post was fine and I didn’t see it as problematic, as I thought OP was seeking to understand. But her subsequent posts seem to be all about explaining how punjabi Sikh culture is better in many ways than the culture she’s coming up against in England.

OP, can you see that neither your culture or mine is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’? That there’s nothing wrong with not offering food when someone comes over unless it’s pre agreed? That a culture where people drop in unexpectedly and are welcomed is no different to a culture where people expect a heads up or to be invited before showing up?

sugarnotsweetener · 04/06/2018 13:44

you have still blanked every response thats told you YWBU to expect a grieving family to 'host' you and then judge them about it.

Youve also blanked the many posts that have said they do offer drinks and/or food on play dates and offering ideas of why they think the father may not have offered a drink as youre still hell bent to push your agenda of telling us that your way is better and youre a better person.

pissedonatrain · 04/06/2018 13:52

It's just cultural differences. Spend more time learning about and engaging in the culture you have decided to live and try to adapt more so you won't be so offended.

I too moved to another country and it is my job to adapt to the new culture not for everyone here to adapt to mine.

WalkingOnAFlashlightBeam · 04/06/2018 14:06

sugarnotsweetener Yes, and the blanking/pig headedness sadly makes me wonder if this is just the way OP is, it would certainly explain why people aren’t keen on having her stay when she shows up and maybe she’s wilfully or naively ignoring their ‘please go home’ signals they’re sending when they don’t offer hospitality.

kidsneedfathers · 04/06/2018 14:16

I have been living for many many years in the UK. And what you wrote OP -especially how you wrote it- digressions, mention of other foreigners, expectation of being offered good in all kind of situations - does not only point to cultural differences, but also ,if not mainly, to the fact that you refuse to integrate and feel superior to your hosts the British...you are wrong on so many aspects/facts and you look like you have a basic and rigid understanding of interpersonal relationship....your attitude is sad and very disturbing...judging people on the food they offer or not/ generalizing the said behavior to all the population/lauding other foreigners and all in the land that give you so.much benefits (including the ability to visit your homecountry -it is an expensive ticket very few British can allow themsrlves) point out to the fact that you are ingrate and refractory to New cultures...your poor kid...

ravenmum · 04/06/2018 14:20

The British are not the OP's hosts; she's British, born and raised in the UK.

Rightgirlwrongplanet1 · 04/06/2018 14:27

@sugarnotsweetener moderation. "I am hell bent" language. Some of the personal insults Hmm I try to be moderate.

Comments noted. Because when visiting a grieving family, we are STILL offered a cup of tea Brew. My granny passed away and tea was permanently on the brew with numbers of guests staying for DAYS! Not inconvenience but helping with the grieving. Annual leave booked. Yes granted, different country, different culture . I don't expect the same at all here.

But can't you expect at least a glass of water from one of the six family members at the very least when you have go to pay your condolences? Must the experience be so opposite?

At the time, I dismissed it as my poor friend was deeply bereaved.

it was a planned visit. I rarely just pop in , as some have assumed.

How would you feel if the situation reversed? You not offering a thing to a visitor in a land where grieving is long drawn out? Would you likewise find it automatic to instantly adapt and not make a mental note of it somewhere in your mind? Because that's what you are expecting of others, would you expect that of yourself?

OP posts:
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