DP went to a strip club on a stag do, and I'm like "this is over"

[OhYikesThisIsBad]

So DP [of c.5 years] went to European resort stag do last weekend. I'll be honest: I was fretful, but assumed he has aligned views on women cavorting for men's pleasure.

For context: we're chums with bride and groom, the wedding's fairly soon. DP and I haven't seen each other til tonight, through work travel.

He announces tonight, as we begin our third drink, "yes well there was a strip club".

Apparently he and another chum "went along with everyone" and sat at the bar because they felt "uncomfortable". The groom had a dance "but paid for by someone else!". I asked: DP thinks the bride and groom should still get married.

I'm very very sad, very angry, have told him this is a no go, relationship ender, etc. I loathe strip clubs.

Dunno what i want really - possibly someone to say "no you're wrong, he's a good lad", "he only went along with the crowd". Maybe a hand hold. Is there any way back from this? I was really looking forward to this bank hol. #fuckssake

I certainly would not get into a tizzy about strip clubs on a stag do.it seems par for course these days,maybe most of the guys don't really like these places.but go because its all about men together on a stag do,as in boozing and what they call a fun time ! so not an issue to end a longish relationship,or spoil any other things in life.

Oh God Moosemousse, society is open about sex. It's everywhere. No one ever shuts up about it.

Hard, exploitative, misogynist fucking is just a click away. Even when you're out and about, on a bus or train, you can just log in to a site on your smartphone.

Society has never been so open about sex. And yet we have the biggest, most well-organised, most profitable people-trafficking industry since the trans-atlantic slave trade.

We are not open about sex. We talk about it, we sexualise images but we are not open and honest. Sexually confident women are still slut shamed. We still weep with embarrassment every time it comes on the telly.

Sex is out there but not in an honest confident way. I teach sex Ed to 16 - 19 year olds and they are crippled with embarrassment. Totally mortified by my mentioning masturbation and periods.

We can not converse about sex, we snigger about it or we pretend it's not really happening.

When people can be honest about their sexual desires and preferences perhaps, possibly they won't need to happen in seedy clubs and on stag do's.

Good posts AskAuntLydia and masterbuilders sad that some of the people posting on this thread aren’t reading them!

AskAuntLydia - All what you’ve said is so true!

When people can be honest about their sexual desires and preferences perhaps, possibly they won't need to happen in seedy clubs and on stag do's.

That kind of implies that the preference that you stick your boner in someone who at best is indifferent and at worst doesn't want you to, is one men should be honest about.

If they were, they run the risk that even the most in-denial women would not want to live with them, or they would have to develop more acceptable sexual preferences.

And also, we may not be as open as we should be - but we are still more open than ever before.

Access to real sexual education, is better than it has ever been.

Access to knowledge about sex and the human body, is better than it's ever been.

And yet we didn't have sex trafficking in the 1950's, that most buttoned up of eras.

So I'm inclined to think this isn't about sexual education. I'm inclined to think it's about male sexual entitlement.

Actually, scrap that, we probably did have sex trafficking in the 1950's. But it wasn't as organised and massive as it is today.

And it wasn't as openly supported by mainstream ordinary men. And their in-denial partners.

We have always had sexual trafficking.

The abused women may not have come from other countries but from the countryside but poor women have always been exploited for sex. We are simply more aware of sexual exploitation.

We do teach about sex, but the ignorance now is a different type of ignorance. In the past people simply didn't know much. As many boys learn sex via porn they are massively ignorant about real sex. They know 'stuff' but the stuff they know is often wrong.

My point is wider we all, men and women, all of us find it difficult to be honest about sex so they end up raping trafficked women believing it's fine because they've seen it on the internet. If there had been a conversation with parents or teachers about this they might be more aware.

While society still attaches shame to sex we will not make any progress.

How did your chat with OH go then OP?
What did you decide

I keep thinking abut it this and it’s created a really interesting discussion at home

TBH I think society should attach shame to men who sexually exploit trafficking victims.

That is one of the things that stops men exploiting victims of trafficking.

If criminal sanctions and personal integrity are not in play, then shame's a back up.

I agree it's not perfect - my personal preference is that personal integrity would be the deciding factor - but it's better than nice, normal men thinking nothing's wrong with fuelling the sex trafficking industry. They should fucking be ashamed. The fact that they aren't, is one of the things that make them so horrifying.

*My late 40s friend was recently invited by an older (~60?) gentleman in her tennis club to a party. Apparently - they have a group of 50-60 yos, that get together and have drinks, dinner, etc.... All consenting adults.

And - while she thought it was funny and just said - thanks, but no thanks. We both were quite happy to realise that there is sex in the latter years. And even new things to experience should we be so inclined....*
I see where your confusion has arisen. You think that enjoying a healthy consenting sex life in your 50s and 60s is the same as exploiting women for kicks.
I'd be surprised if my DH asked to go to a swingers party but it wouldn't make me think he objectified women.
If he told me he'd been to a strip club (even in the UK) that would lead me to think he had been abducted by aliens.

The point is the swingers party between consenting adults and exploiting a trafficked women are both at the same point of sexual shame.

One is within the bounds of reasonable behaviour and one is not. However, by many people they would be treated as both being shameful.

If the swingers could be more open then the finger might point more clearly at the abusers. Possibly.

I'm still a bit mystified by which European countries/resorts are gang-run stag resorts. Could people maybe name places for the benefit of the ignorant? DP has never gone on a "stag do" in his life, and not likely to, but I would like to have a bit of a clue whether a male acquiantance is actually saying "I'm a big rapist me" when talking about their holidays.

Amsterdam? Prague? Where else?

The Eastern European countries which are huge for stags now; Cyprus, Amsterdam. It’s really easy to find out for yourself you just need to open your eyes. These issues are quite well publicised. It’s just they have become so popular with British men, most choose to ignore it....as you’ve quoted my post. I’d also like to clarify not once have I used the word rapist as you’ve suggested.

I’ve just highlighted the fact these resorts are gang run and a hotbed for trafficking.

Rapist is def my addition masterbuilders - because frankly, IMO if a guy is sticking his cock in a woman and he doesn't care if she's trafficked or not, then that is exactly what he is. It is not something you said.

They might be well publicised but I was hesitant to go trawling through what might be some quite harrowing reporting - thank you for giving names.

Hard to disagree tbh.

The point is the swingers party between consenting adults and exploiting a trafficked women are both at the same point of sexual shame.
No, the point was (apparently) that I don't think I know anyone who uses porn because I'm assuming nobody my/DH age has a sex life.
It is not at all surprising to me (as it appears to be to PP) that middle aged people have sex.
This does not mean they all use porn or go to strip clubs because not all of them exploit women.

Consent is not shameful. Exploitation is.

Be prepared to find out your partner was more involved than he says .... and really think about spreading the news about the private dance as will have huge consequences. Might also be your partner who had the private dance and was testing the water.

Yes exploitation is shameful and consenting sexual activity isn't. However, due to the lack of open communication on the topic both are grouped together.

@drspouse
Nope - the point is that you don’t think you know anyone who watches porn because you assume that everyone around you has exactly the same attitude to it as you.
They don’t, not necessarily.

Sure, there are generational differences. Your H’s generation as teenagers - started with porn magazines, due to technology limitations.
And then, at some point - they must have seen porn on VHS.

And as to swingers (or any other forms of non-monogamy) - yes, people are judged on that.
I can imagine the thread on - ‘my H has suggested we consider a swingers party’....
I think at that point - most women would prefer their H just wanted to look at porn...

If they do, they haven't got the first idea what porn is.

Amsterdam? Prague? Where else?

There’s a red light district in pretty much every major city...and some of the smaller cities too.

Not read all 18 pages but it wouldn’t bother me at all.

I couldn't get worked up over this (and I haven't previously) but if this is your red flag (and you've already told him that) you can't go back now or what other red flags can he go past